Oy. Scott Adams won’t shut up about that execrable “Pegs and Hoies” piece of his that I (and quite a few other people on the internets) wrote about the other day. Naturally, he’s being willfully obtuse about the reaction his piece caused, and blames it all on the “low reading comprehension” of everyone in the world who is not him and/or one of his sycophantic fans. So he’s decided to interview a number of those who wrote about it. (Not including me. Aww, Scott, but we had such good times together!)
So far he’s interviewed Mary Elizabeth Williams of Salon (a great writer and lovely person, by the way) and Irin Carmon of Jezebel. Naturally, the interviewees offer cogent explanations of just what was wrong with his idiotic post, and he responds by completely and utterly missing the point. (Or pretending to; it’s always hard to tell with Scott.)
Scott Adams is so relentlessly irritating – he’s a bit like Eoghan in his stubborn refusal to get the point – that I can’t bring myself to write any more about this idiotic manufactured controversy. So you’ll have to go check out the posts yourself.
EDITED TO ADD: Adams has put up yet another post on the subject, entitled “Maybe it’s me?” in which he decides ” to take a step back and seriously consider the hypothesis that the reason people disagree with me is that I’m an idiot and I don’t realize it.” Scott, your hypothesis is correct.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: And … Mr. Adams has now made a personal appearance in the comments below. Be gentle!
Given Adams’ intense narcissism, I can’t help but get the song “Biggest Fan” by the Martini Brothers stuck in my head every time I read any of this posts. Listen a bit, and you’ll see why.
Bee – But even among friends, lovers, spouses, relatives, and other acquaintances, it can be about something other than sex.
Definitely and I didn’t intend to imply otherwise. Sorry if it came across that way.
Lyn – I think there’s a lot to that. But I guess what I’m saying is that replacing the narrative “rape is about sex” with the narrative “rape is not about sex – it is about power” is still pretty damaging. Because I think it makes it harder for people who commit date-rape to recognize that it is also rape.
Ami – God, no, you don’t need to apologize. I feel like I should 🙁 I didn’t mean to trigger anyone.
Sorry, I didn’t mean “rape as different from sex” but was referring to Ami’s argument that it’s important to acknowledge that rape is not entirely motivated by sex…
@Fuck MRAs:
Well, thanks for the compliment, I guess. At this point I’m pretty sure you are a reasonable person as well. This kind of thinking just rubs me the wrong way:
“I don’t really care what other people think because I have enough info and facts and brains enough of my own to decide.”
I try to make an effort not to think I have the final say on matters, because ultimately I only have access to a very narrow subset of the world’s knowledge. I don’t deny that there are some things you can be more certain about, even to the point where you don’t really need to address claims to the contrary (since they’ve been disproven already). But to say you have the final answer on something, and don’t need to bother listening to anything to the contrary… irritates me. It smacks of fanaticism.
Ah well. To each their own, ultimately, I guess.
@ Plymouth – I totally agree. Saying that rape is ONLY about power leads to all sorts of confusion – it justifies juries saying ‘that looks a little bit like romance…can’t be rape then cos rape is about power and violence!’ Besides – how has sex got nothing to do with power in our culture?
Also, when you’re talking what rape is “about,” it’s important to realize that there are endless rape scenarios. I’ve been on maybe 70 calls, and one rape never happens in the same way, with the same fact pattern and the same kinds of relationships, as another one. Or, not in my experience. So saying “rape is about sex” or “rape isn’t about sex” or “rape is about –” whatever is pretty unhelpful and unrealistic.
@Lyn & Bee & Plymouth etc:
I don’t really have much to contribute here, but its really a balancing act. On the one hand, you want to combat the cultural narratives that have sprung up by changing the language. On the other hand, you don’t want to slide into a different but equally spurious black-or-white claim. The problem is that if you seem to waffle at all, some people will take that as a sign that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Confidence sells…
Well I’m not saying that I have final “say” in things, but yes there are some things for which I literally need no more info in order to form my own hard opinion. Equality for people across racial/physical differences is one, the idea that religion is a negative force is another. There are some others
I really don’t think the majority of these would really be all that controversial in a Manboobz type setting but obviously no one person/group/awesome MRA hating blog on the net can agree with everyone all the time.
Plymouth: Oh, no need to apologize. It didn’t come across that you were arguing against what I was saying, I just was inspired to add to what you said! I like to type.
I agree Bee. Also – talking about what rape is “about” is usually referring to what the rape is about for the rapist. I don’t know that I want to take a rapist’s opinion as the last word on anything, even rape – I think many survivors (myself included) experience sexual assault as a specifically sexual attack. To say it is about power or violence kinda takes that out of it…but it’s not the same as being punched in the face.
Kirbywarp – it’s certainly useful rhetorically when arguing against people who are incredibly invested in the idea that rape is motivated purely by (cis men’s) sexual frustration to simply say “no, rape is about power”. But, as with any one-liner, it’s limited.
(I know you’re arguing in good faith and I’m not trying to jump on you here, but I’m kinda not happy with the implication that what we’re ‘waffling’ here. Letting dumbasses set the terms of the debate also seems counter-productive)
@Fuck MRAs:
Alright, well, I guess we can call this a truce (if one was needed). Its not that I necessarily disagree with you, I just don’t want to be caught dismissing evidence simply because it contradicts what I already believe. There are many much more fun reasons for dismissing it. 😛
@Lyn:
No, don’t worry, I wasn’t accusing you of waffling. The implication was supposed to be that people who are 100% sure of their position see any arguing or recognition of nuance as waffling, and to those types of people confidence sells. So its not you, its their perception of you.
To some extent it seems like what it’s “about” doesn’t really matter – what it IS is having sex (for broad definitions of sex) with someone who didn’t or can’t consent to that sex.
Whether it’s “about” sex OR power we’re not going to be able to solve it by eliminating either the desire for sex OR the desire for power. People are going to want those things forever.
@Bee and Lyn that is what I was trying to say (I know that you know that :3 ), what that response is is supposed to fight the dominant narrative… the “battlefield” is unfair, so taking it in a vacuum makes it look like just another extreme when I understand why that argument (which is often ALSO nuanced but in terms of media soundbites often can’t be) is made b/c while it’s not exactly the most ethical argument, this is a real issue with real victims and I think some ppl just want to get something done in the short term rather than getting more done in the long term (this is a big thing in terms of anti-oppression/social services in my exp… that you can’t treat it like a RTS where you can sacrifice for the long term, b/c there are real ppl being sacrificed : and also there are real survivors who hear “rape is about sex” that it wasn’t just that they were at fault, but that it’s almost like they misunderstood what was going on, that they are overreacting about just some unwanted sex) :
the other thing is I think b/c that is the dominant narrative in FEMINIST spaces, we hear it a LOT MORE and thus it seems like it’s the dominant narrative in general :
I do think that a more nuanced narrative would be ideal, and imo, is also something we should be working for, but we also have to acknowledge the narratives that are out there in the media and in society, and all the other issues about rape in reality :
This isn’t me saying “rape is not about sex, it’s all about power and control” is the right thing to say… I mean what soundbite IS!? But I’m saying that it’s a rly complicated issue, and we can’t act like this is in a vacuum : And also explaining why that narrative is used by feminists in public (and sadly, as I said, becoming a meme : one that is said without nuance and explanation)..
“There are many much more fun reasons for dismissing it. :P”
You mean like that it isn’t evidence at all and is instead a pack of lies bigotry? Cause that’s pretty much what the MRAs do… Speaking of which…
How bout them MRAs anyway? Aren’t they a stupid and yet also amusing and yet also terrifying lot? We now return you to your regularly scheduled douchebag bashing…
@Fuck MRAs:
Now now, don’t go generalizing about MRAs. Not all of them are amusing.
@ Bee:
Yeah, I only ever met the guy once, and only ever had that one conversation with him, but it’s stuck with me. He had an amazing amount of compassion that just came so naturally to him.
Another thing I remember him telling me is that homeless people eat a lot of cake. If you walk by a bakery, there are probably some display cakes in the window, so the bakery can show off what they do. But those cakes really can’t be sold, so when the cakes are about to go bad, the bakeries donate them to the local food kitchens. Which is awesome of them, to donate food instead of throwing it out, but it means that cake makes up a pretty big part of a homeless person’s diet, which is a contributing reason to why so many homeless people are overweight. It’s not that they’re lazy, it’s that they’re existing on a diet comprised of a lot of simple sugars and empty calories.
Does anyone know how to disable that awful meebo thing on Scott Adam’s blog? I’ve seen the same thing elsewhere and it’s just terrible. I do a lot of highlighting text as I read, and that thing just jacks it all up.
@Vicotria von Syrus:
So you’re saying that the phrase “Let them eat cake” was a valid one? *mind blown*
*wild applause for Ami*
**presents her with HUGE bouqet of flowers***
***Calls for ENCORE!***
On the sex/power thing, I think rape is definitely at an intersection of the two. It’s not just about being so overwhelmingly horny that there’s no other option; but it’s not necessarily about a straight up display of dominance. If it was a straight up display of dominance, then it’d be something like a bar brawl, and that would be it.
There’s a great research paper done by David Lisak and Paul Miller on the question of undetected rapists. They start by observing that anywhere from 16-25% of women will be raped in their lifetime, but 16-25% of men are not in jail. So they studied rapists, and found out some pretty interesting things – like how only about 1 in 12 men are actually rapists. They also found a really weird attitude – some of these men would make assertions like, “Yeah, I held her down until she had sex with me, but I didn’t rape her.”
Here’s a link to the study, it’s pretty interesting (though possibly trigger-y):
http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/cache/documents/1348/134851.pdf
@ Kirby:
I know! I made a similar comment when he told me. I asked him what homeless people ate, and I was kind of expecting an answer along the lines of “Oh, soup made from whatever was donated that day,” but I did not imagine cake.
Victoria – Ha ha (well, it’s not really funny), someone I know was homeless for a time and he lived by dumpster-diving behind a pastry shop. They’d throw out big bags of uneaten pastries at the end of each day–more than he could eat, if they hadn’t done anything inconsiderate like put coffee grounds or gross napkins in the same bag.
It gave me a perspective on not only why a homeless person might be overweight, but on being considerate when you throw out your trash! Every time someone thoughtlessly put gross or dangerous things in the old-food bag, he had to hunt somewhere else or go hungry that day.
Scott Adams’s nonsense is relatively recent
It depends on what you consider “relatively recent”. There was a big kerfuffle a long time ago with…creationism? evolution?…something like that. And he did/said similar stupid things, with the argument being, “Oh, well I’m far superior to you peons”. This was predictable that he was going to be an ass because he’s done it before.
I think it’s sad that there doesn’t come a point where people just say, “To hell with you” and stop taking assholes seriously. There will always be people who start off with a reasonable argument but then somehow veer off into doucheland, and for whatever reason, people will willingly go with them.
There was a whole discussion about this on page 1 of the comments but the comment that finally prompted my response was this one by sarahejones:
And I could concede, I suppose, that for some rapists there is an element of sexual desire. But the decision to rape is born out of a desire to dominate, not to fuck.
So I was being unnecessarily sound-bitey when I put it as “rape is about power not sex” (though I have seen it put in just those words plenty of times). But I do think the above, while being slightly more nuanced, leaves out a lot of date-rape. I’m sure there are some sickos who explicitly look for a girl who isn’t into sex with them and take her out of a date so that she will “owe them” sex and then they take it from her when she refuses and get off on the power trip more than the sex.
But I think there are plenty who take a girl out honestly hoping she will be into sex with them and are so convinced she is that they just won’t take no for an answer. And I don’t think the latter is any less rape, but I do think the desire for sex comes first and that “no” does not automatically trigger some domination response.
I think you all pretty much agree with me on that based on some of the above discussion so I don’t want to harp on it too much, I’m more responding to include the actual context I was replying to and why it bothered me, which I should have just done the first time.