Oy. Scott Adams won’t shut up about that execrable “Pegs and Hoies” piece of his that I (and quite a few other people on the internets) wrote about the other day. Naturally, he’s being willfully obtuse about the reaction his piece caused, and blames it all on the “low reading comprehension” of everyone in the world who is not him and/or one of his sycophantic fans. So he’s decided to interview a number of those who wrote about it. (Not including me. Aww, Scott, but we had such good times together!)
So far he’s interviewed Mary Elizabeth Williams of Salon (a great writer and lovely person, by the way) and Irin Carmon of Jezebel. Naturally, the interviewees offer cogent explanations of just what was wrong with his idiotic post, and he responds by completely and utterly missing the point. (Or pretending to; it’s always hard to tell with Scott.)
Scott Adams is so relentlessly irritating – he’s a bit like Eoghan in his stubborn refusal to get the point – that I can’t bring myself to write any more about this idiotic manufactured controversy. So you’ll have to go check out the posts yourself.
EDITED TO ADD: Adams has put up yet another post on the subject, entitled “Maybe it’s me?” in which he decides ” to take a step back and seriously consider the hypothesis that the reason people disagree with me is that I’m an idiot and I don’t realize it.” Scott, your hypothesis is correct.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: And … Mr. Adams has now made a personal appearance in the comments below. Be gentle!
Given Adams’ intense narcissism, I can’t help but get the song “Biggest Fan” by the Martini Brothers stuck in my head every time I read any of this posts. Listen a bit, and you’ll see why.
Kave…. Oh my god… Are you saying that I have grown a penis since the last time I looked down my pants? Holy shit, bathroom check, BRB….
@Fuck MRAs:
I find a similar situation with people who think that homosexuality is wrong because its in the bible. Surely though, you see the relevance in confronting them, yes? The annoying thing with some people is that they take silence as affirmation. The good thing is that these same people often make themselves look infinitely more foolish when they try to deal with criticism. I’m not expecting you personally to deal with these people, but I take offense at you saying that nobody should.
re: rape being about power…
Sometime shortly after I found this blog I wrote a long detailed post about a time I pressured a guy into sex. Then I chickened out on actually posting it here and posted it to my livejournal instead in a friends-locked post because I felt like I didn’t know people here well enough and it was really personal and I just didn’t know what kind of response I would get. I think I’m still too scared to post the detailed version but here’s the summary:
I pressured a guy into sex who was telling me he didn’t want to have sex with me because he wasn’t ready for that level of intimacy with someone else after just having gotten out of a long term serious relationship with someone else. He didn’t physically resist but I clearly didn’t listen when he said no. I am sure I fell prey to the myth that “he has an erection therefore he wants sex”. I was a lot younger and less experienced at the time.
We are no longer friends, partly as a result of this. It took me a long time to realize what I did was wrong, but it was bloody well wrong and probably meets the definition of date rape. If a boy did a similar thing to a girl I am sure a bunch of people here would call it date-rape.
And I can tell you that while I’m sure power was an aspect of what was going on there, it was ABSOLUTELY about sex. I wanted him BEFORE he said “no” and him saying “no” didn’t make me STOP wanting him.
I’m sure there are rapes that are not about sex. But if the story is that rape isn’t just confined to strangers jumping out of the bushes, if it includes friends and boyfriends and and husbands and college hookups and women raping men… I think a lot of the time it also has to be about sex.
*is still kinda scared how people will respond*
Nope. Still physically female. Vagina, labia, the whole 9…
I’m also not an MRA.
As to trying to egg people on, you obviously misread my posts or missed the ones where I explicitly laid out the fact that I really did not care if people agreed or backed me up.
I removed myself from the thread which is what I meant when I said I would go back to reading.
I see relevance to speaking out against religious bigotry, lies, and attempts to manipulate the legal system. I don’t see much point in engaging the individual people who engage in the lies and bigotry, because nothing they say on the subject is based in reality anyway.
You said before you were going back to reading fuckmra. Should I believe you now?
@Fuck MRAs:
Religious bigotry is made out of unchallenged individuals.
“nothing they say on the subject is based in reality anyway.”
Same is true of a lot of people that are still worth challenging, as I said before, because other people believe them otherwise.
You don’t seem to care about my opinion on the matter, though, so perhaps its best to leave it at that. No sense in engaging someone who isn’t interested in conversation, right?
http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/ami_angelwings/Magyc%20Cards/ScorchingSpittle.jpg
Kave, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. I said in ONE thread that I would go back to reading and not posting and in that ONE thread I did.
Are you trying to tell me to leave? Are you a moderator here?
@Plymouth when ppl say that rape is about power and not sex, they do not mean that sex has nothing to do with it, or that it isn’t about the act : What they mean, is that like in your case, you exercised the power dynamic to get what you want… which happened to be sex… :
the reason ppl say that it’s “not about sex” is meant to counter the idea that it is just uncontrollable sexual desire, and therefore something we can’t fault people for b/c there were no power dynamics at play, or any exercise of power, or etc to acknowledge and be aware of…that it is merely about “I’m so horny, I can’t help myself!” :
@Plymouth the idea is to take that narrative out of it, and then we can talk about it… (which I know doesn’t always happen), but b/c there are certain social narratives that are extremely dominating (and play into things such as victim blaming, or rape apologia, or dismissing victim’s, etc), what many people are trying to do (which can morph into a one-dimensional meme, the way a lot of things do : like “check your privilege”) are trying to take the discussion/argument out of those narratives… and then the issue of sex along with power/control/revenge/punishment/etc can be addressed 🙂
Plymouth: First of all, thanks for sharing that story. It’s really powerful.
I think there’s definitely kind of a Venn diagram thing going on with rape, where different rapists want different things. I wouldn’t ever say it’s always all about power and it’s never about sex or desire in any way. Sometimes it’s only about power. Sometimes, I think, it’s only about wanting sex and being confused about what the other person wants or what your role is, etc. Sometimes it’s about both. Sometimes it’s about something completely different, like rage or wanting to intimidate or wanting to belong (in a group of other people who have decided to rape someone) or messed up ideas about how to express love or … any number of things.
But even among friends, lovers, spouses, relatives, and other acquaintances, it can be about something other than sex. My “friends” held me down and undressed me while I was sobbing and saying no. I cannot imagine anything less sexy than that. If I had to guess, it was partially about wanting to have sex with someone, but it was also a really clear demonstration of power over someone who couldn’t move, couldn’t get away, and wasn’t being listened to.*
*I say this not to negate what you’re saying about your experience AT ALL, but only to add to it.
@Plymouth it’s like how in the murders of trans people, while sure, fear might have something to do with it, it plays right into the idea of “trans panic/gay panic” and etc… so people who are trying to fight the victim-blamers, etc, try to take the issues out of focus, b/c of all the narratives and myths associated w/ it… : It doesn’t mean that people don’t believe that “fear” or nething have nothing to do w/ it in all situations.. and it’s ALL just pure hatred… but it’s to try to explain the issue when society’s narratives involving these crimes are v much tied into transphobia, ignorance and a focus on feelings of the perpetrator as an excuse. :
I hope that makes some sense to what I’m trying to say. 🙂
FMRA:
You’re making this discussion all about you.
That’s trolling.
@katz:
Urk… To be fair, if the discussion revolves around one person’s opinion because other’s disagree, it’s not necessarily trolling.
The problem with “rape is about sex” as a dominant narrative is a) it feeds into the idea that you can “prevent” it by not being sexual, not attracting ppl, etc etc b) it makes victims who people do not believe are sexual/attractive unbelievable to the authorities and others (the elderly, the disabled, the mentally disabled, people who are fat, men) c) it creates the idea that rapists of those people are those who are attracted to them, or would normally want to have sex with them (i.e. rape of men is perpetrated by gay men, rape of disabled ppl must be done by somebody w/ a fetish) d) and because of that it means that the profile of those rapists can be incredibly skewed, or that we don’t believe that those groups CAN be raped often b/c how likely is it that somebody has that fetish? etc e) besides that it suggests that the sexual history of the victim might be relevant, it also suggests that the sexual history of the rapist is relevant : After all, if you don’t have a history of sleeping with trans women, or you’re transphobic, why would you ever rape a trans woman? :
and now I’m triggered, so i have to stop. 😐
I’m sorry…
kirby, it’s not an insult or anything personal that I don’t care about your opinion on this particular matter. There are lots of matters where I very much care about a great number of people’s opinions and take them into consideration. I daresay there would even be a great number of matters where I would very much like to have YOUR opinion, you, kirbywarp, because I think you think about things quite deeply and that’s something I admire. And lots of other people here have said a lot of really cool and interesting things since I started reading and posting occasionally months ago that make me think this would be a great place to get some opinions, some perspective, some knowledge.
But then there are other matters that I have firm opinions on. I don’t really care what other people think because I have enough info and facts and brains enough of my own to decide. And unless someone really crosses a line (racism, sexism, etc) something like my original post here is about as far as I am going to go in condemning someone with a different frame of mind on these types of “hard opinion” matters. I stated my piece and that’s it. I promise I am not going to sit here and snipe at the people who disagree.
Still lol’ing over “USSA”
And I agree with Bee, about the Venn diagram concept. My assault was about power. Sex had nothing to do it. And I’m still not quite clear on whether or not miscommunication played a role. I said “no” more than once, so I feel that there wasn’t any, but my attacker claims he doesn’t remember a thing. And it’s really difficult to question the experience, because it’s such a horrible headspace to enter. All I know that I felt degraded, and controlled, and disregarded. So I call it assault. I call it abuse. And power played a major role.
Hope I’m coherent. Boyfriend brought some homebrew home 🙂
@Ami: never apologize. There’s nothing to apologize for.
Umm… Kave, you asked me a question and basically implied that I should leave. Would you have preferred that I respond privately rather than publicly? Because I don’t see that option. (shrug)
@Plymouth – I think there are a lot of cultural narratives out there that make it difficult for men to say no as well, and that make being a male/masculine-identified sub and setting boundaries particularly difficult (I had a partner who told me that he wanted to be dominated but didn’t set boundaries…and I stepped over his boundaries because we were both young and found it difficult to be clear about our desires and, I too, had this idea that erections = consent). There’s this ‘men are always up for sex’ thing that I had to learn was a myth…but it’s hard to decipher or even examine myths like that because they are constructed as ‘common-sense’ when they are anything but. One of those Patriarchy Hurts Men Too things, I guess – my ex partner had internalised that talking about desires was awkward and unromantic and that it wrecked the *mood* so that idea of unspoken desire and that a partner who really loves you just magically *knows* what you want is another one of those things that needs to be undermined as much as possible. I, meanwhile, got incredibly frustrated by the expectation that if I really loved him I would magically know how he was feeling (I, of course, did not expect him to magically know how to manipulate my clitoris)…our discourses of love and desire are just such a mess!
oops, sorry. Katz/Kave… Different person.
I think to clarify… i think the Venn diagram is right, but it doesn’t mean that taking one part of the Venn diagram out doesn’t mean you can’t be raped : That’s the point when ppl say that rape isn’t about sex. They mean “rape isn’t JUST about sex” or more to the point “rape isn’t contingent on sex” or however somebody wants to put it -_-;; I’ve even said “rape isn’t just about sex” to ppl before and they say “well but sex is the easiest part to control” and etc : Cuz they think what it means is OF COURSE there’s other factors involved, like violence, anger, etc… but if you take out the sexual desire, it’ll stop… (of course if that was true just saying “no”, or running, or having the wrong body parts, or etc would stop it) :
I think rape is often more about the symbolism of sex. It’s not about the physical experience (rape isn’t exactly sensual for the rapist), but about the supposed status and manliness and conquest that comes from “getting” sex.
When I was assaulted, I know why it happened, in my attacker’s mind: because I’d asked him to stop trying to penetrate me because it wasn’t working and I wasn’t enjoying it. He wanted to keep going until I enjoyed it, as this would prove him a Real Man and prove that he had Won At Sex.
So in one sense, it was about sex; but it wasn’t about pleasure.
*hugs if you want them* Ami – you made some excellent points there – laid out lots of my thoughts on why it’s important to distinguish rape as different from sex. It’s like many feminist arguments – when appropriated into the mainstream they lose their nuance.
Using the feminist argument that rape is about violence and not sex to set up sex and rape up as opposites has led to many many problems…but at the same time thinking that rape is all about sex is incredibly problematic too! Sigh.