Good news, ladies and manginas: Apparently some MRAs don’t think it’s time to go out and start shooting people. At least not quite yet.
Some background: In recent days numerous MRAs have taken up the cause of a man named Thomas Ball – who burned himself to death outside a courthouse in Keane, New Hampshire in a protest against what he saw as unfair treatment in family court. Ferdinand Bardamu of In Male Fide has declared him “a martyr for the cause of men’s rights, a casualty of feminism’s stripping one half of the population of their humanity.”
Before killing himself, Ball wrote a long manifesto outlining his grievances and suggesting that the time had come for men “to start burning down police stations and courthouses,” describing the inhabitants of such buildings as “[c]ollaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War … So burn them out. “ (He offered specific advice on how best to do this, including tips on how to select the proper bottles to use for Molotov cocktails.)
All this has inspired some in the MRA to start talking ominously about violence. On The Spearhead, W.F. Price has responded to this talk with a piece suggesting that the time isn’t quite right for the MRAs of the world to take up armed struggle. Not just yet, anyway. As he puts it:
It is never a good idea to pick up a gun and start shooting to address some vaguely defined injustice — that is savagery. Before the American Revolution, for example, patriots took pains to spell out a long list of grievances that justified rebellion. …
We have to make our own lists, air our grievances, and give the state the opportunity to redress them. … Before anyone resorts to the same methods the state uses against us, we must put every reasonable effort into working with the law and the political system we have. Because this effort is still in its infancy, any calls for armed resistance are entirely premature and counterproductive, and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Obviously, the flip side of this argument for delay is a justification for killing people if these “grievances” aren’t dealt with in the way that those in the MRA would like. Price’s reference to the American Revolution is an interesting one, because of course the central issue of that struggle was, you know, taxation without representation. The colonists couldn’t vote out the king if they didn’t like his policies. In case anyone has forgotten: we actually do have the vote now, which was kind of the whole point in the first place.
Of course, many of Price’s readers are a bit more impatient than he is. In a comment that drew (last I checked) more than 40 upvotes and only two dissenting downvote, Taqman took issue with Price’s call to delay the armed struggle:
Tell that to men who are facing imminent imprisonment for failure to pay child support.
They don’t have the luxury of time and can’t wait a couple of decades for the manginas of the world to wake up and decide that a gentlemanly form of armed resistance is now acceptable.
The ironically named Firepower, meanwhile, took a little swipe at Ball’s own actions, but didn’t challenge his advice for the rest of the men of the world:
What IS crazy is having to point out that setting YOURSELF on fire is a ridiculous way to “win” anything.
Set your enemies on fire. To even have to remind this questions the long term chances of victory for such a pathetic lot.
Jean Valjean suggested that political action was pointless — due to all those damned women who vote:
No amount of “stoic logic” will make politicians see our point of view.
Politicians are in the business of getting re-elected rather than the business of good governance. So long as women are the majority there will only be tyranny of the majority.
Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c) — you knew we were getting to him, right? — expressed his profound disappointment that more Spearheaders weren’t willing to embrace a violent solution:
Gee you guys are whimps and tiptoe around the ‘use of force’ like freaking ballet dancers. Are you so scared to speak about this when it is CLEAR the guvment LOVES using force against you and lots of other people too?
And he made the argument personal, explicitly denouncing, by name, the judge he claimed had “criminally abused” him with his rulings:
Judge [name redacted’s] life is now in my hands. He lives by my consent and my consent alone. …
And, like Ball, he declared judges to be essentially treasonous:
These judges pretended to be your servants. They are evil, evil people who deserve the kind of treatment reserved for those who commit treason.
There is more to Nolan’s comment(s) than that, but to get into it would require going down the rabbit-hole into his particular brand of crackpottery, which seems to involve him setting up his own courts to try judges he doesn’t like. (I frankly don’t understand his belief system and don’t care to.)
Now, it should be noted that a few Spearheaders actually objected to Nolan’s violent talk. But the last I checked, the comment I just quoted had more upvotes than downvotes. W.F. Price took more flak for suggesting men wait a little longer before taking up arms than Nolan did for, well, you saw what he wrote. That tells you a lot about The Spearhead, I think.
EDIT: Added quote from Ferdinand Bardamu; removed similar quote from The Spearhead.
@Ami Angelwings | June 26, 2011 at 9:51 pm
why? o_O I am confused… which one would you say applies to me and why? :3
Bad editing on my part. What I was trying to convey was that when I read what you wrote I had a mouth full of coffee and I snorted it out through my nose just missing my keyboard.
Based on your previous comments on the start of this thread, I believed I understood why you would say what you did.
As to which one applies to you? I have no idea which one. My mind goes *sputz* whenever I try to think about it. 🙂
EvPsych is rubbish. Descriptive sciences about the past are hard. They are hard to do, and hard for a lot of people to understand (just look at any number of people talking about evolution).
EvPsych can’t, at present, come up with any way to test the hypotheses. They need models, and predictive experiments. They don’t have them. As said, they have, “just so stories” and the just so stories are provably false.
The recent one, about blonde hair and blue eyes being hardwired into men… To which I say, Asia, Italy, Greece, Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland. Those are all places where one fines a lack of blonde predominance. Some of them have almost zero blondes/blue eyes.
So this thing which is “hardwired” into the species… is a minority trait; even in places where the climate doesn’t preclude it. No blondes in the American Arctic, nor in the Siberian North, nor in Tibet.
Until (probably unless) EvPsych can get it’s act together, and design falsifiable experiments, it’s just a way for jerks to justify their jerkitude.
Ow… looks like I derailed into three topics
Give me 5 mins… cats is on fire but I will be back to respond
Oh! then I’m glad that you didn’t ruin your keyboard! 😀
We need an evo psych list for Cabbits *nods*
oh no D:
hope cats are ok? :3
“I was…doing a little bit of yoga, and I’m just seeing all these goddesses. It seems crazy, but I just felt like I was being blessed by their energy.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/06/26/2011-06-26_colo_portable_toilet_peeping_tom_nabbed_peeper_luke_chrisco_confesses_to_spying_.html#ixzz1QRak2Ds5
Andrew, if you’re referring to that “language police” thing on Feministe — which I’m guessing is what you’re talking about, since it got talked about on the spearhead recently — you’re remembering it wrong. Yes, there were some people who acted like asses, but there were plenty of people who came to my defense and/or argued against the extreme language police.
Not quite sure how it relates to the discussion here.
Crack – ridiculous indeed, but still anecdotal. Not hard data.
David,
Crack, yes, some cults incorporate yoga in their practices, and some use yoga as the gateway to get people into their cults. But yoga =/= cult. Most yogo practitioners/teachers have nothing to do with cults; most cults have nothing to do with yoga.
I’ve run across radical political organizations with culty elements, and others that frankly ARE cults. But that doesn’t mean that radical politics = cult.
You are burning down a straw man.(Attacking something I didn’t say.) You guys really are big on filling in the blanks with your assumptions, which is an outrageously stupid way to go through life, folks. You’re NEVER going to get anything right that way.
Why don’t you guys wise up and ask me to explain something, or show you some links, at least? The idea that you can read my mind, or know everything I mean, from a few sentences in a pithy post is weird.
Come on, y’all, grow up.
BTW – no disrespect, but it has been all day, and the shit gets tiring.
@David but that narrative isn’t as fun :
@Crack:
You said: “Yoga is involved in almost every major cult I’ve ever investigated, and almost every cult-related death. ”
I responded: Do you have a source for that claim?
@theLaplaceDemon | June 26, 2011 at 10:27 pm
“I agree with pretty much all of that, though I’m a little unclear on how it relates to our discussion – which seemed pretty reasonable, IMO (maybe you are responding to something else, or starting a whole new topic, and I’m just missing it?)”
What happened is I wrote a rant. I usually delete my rants having got it out of my system by writing it. This time I accidently posted it.
@denelian | June 26, 2011 at 9:52 pm
“except the premise you’re outlining is utter BS [i assume you know this] because one of the tenets of “Game” is that women somehow evolved to want the “Alpha” man with the most MONEY – and money is so freaking NEW, on an evolutionary scale, it hasn’t really impacted the species yet!”
Actually, one of them boasts that he has no money, lives in a basement, has no car and it still works for him.
“also… “Game” acts as if all women are exactly same. i’ve had PUAs try to game me – mostly with “negs”. if someone “negs me” [backhand compliments that are more insulting that true insults] i’m not going to want to continue TALKING to that person, let alone sleep with him.”
If I remember correctly it is a combination of body language, something called “kino” and constant reframing. Not just negs. Roissy if I recall correctly says it does not work on all women.
Kruser is just awful if he has done half the things he claims he has done.
“*shrug* also, IME, most PUAs … massage the truth, shall we say? and they aren’t even after SEX, except as a means to “prove” that they’re now “alpha”. its… a cold thing. no passion. no want.”
As a man, I am sorry to tell you that most men want sex. Lots of sex. All the time.
Everything else is secondary, and most of what a man does, he does to eventually get sex. Do not make the assumption that men are wired like women. We are not.
@theLaplaceDemon | June 26, 2011 at 9:49 pm
“…no, Andrew. I don’t think the majority of the scientific community knows what a Pick Up Artist is. It’s attacked in the literature because it’s often shoddy science.”
I am willing to accept that. Actually, if I had taken some time to think about it I probably would not have said anything about the PUAs.
However, it was the first thing I thought of, because that is how I became aware of it. The PUAs were claiming to use it.
I find it dishonest and sleezy myself. But i have seen enough verbiage and videos to be convinced that it works for some people. And even the PUAs will tell you it does not work on everyone.
I have never tried it myself, but I know enough about it now to see it being used and working.
It says something about how fucked up a situation must be, and how frustrated that person must be in order to douse themselves in gasoline and light themselves on fire.
I would hope that not violence, but perhaps some reconsideration of legal proceedings and father’s rights comes out of this mess.
Crack puts me in mind of the people who dismiss those with depression-“I never got depressed when I had XYZ bad thing happened to me! Therefore depression is just people being whiny babies!”
You may not consider it abuse for a woman to hit a child with a board with nails in it but the law, most of the people on here and I do. I could possibly understand it if she was only doing it after you had been really misbehaving (I partly grew up in the barrios of Phoenix and what would be abuse in North Scottsdale was just par for course there) but that is not what you said-you said she did it whenever she wanted to. Even in the barrios she would be…dealt with for pulling that shit.
@David Futrelle | June 26, 2011 at 10:42 pm
“Andrew, if you’re referring to that “language police” thing on Feministe”
In this case I was reading the thread while it was going down. I read a couple of your responses and bailed.
“Not quite sure how it relates to the discussion here.”
Again my apologies. I typically write rants and never post them. I accidentally posted this one.
BTW.. I frequently post on the Spearhead and InMalaFide and I did see a mention of it on at least one of them.
To the best of my knowledge I am the only AndrewV on both of those sites. So anything you see there under this handle should be mine.
Andrew;
i’m going off the PUAs i’ve met and talked to – i know that they have online places, but i’ve never sought them out.
my little joke about their reason for sex is an in-joke i shouldn’t have made, cuz you [all of the people here, but since i was talking to you, especially you 🙂 ] don’t know me and my friends in real life. it was part of a larger set of jokes, comparing “Game” to “Gaming” [i.e. D&D and other table-top RPGs and LARPs] i sometimes forget that the people i like online aren’t people i actually KNOW, in real life.
sorry about that 🙂
funnily enough, it was a conversation at a club about evo-psych that introduced me to the first PUA i met – he objected strenously to overhearing me deride certain things about evo-psych. and came and mansplained it to me – all while telling me i was “almost smart” and it was “impressive” that i had “enough brain cells to even consider science, no matter how wrong [I was] about ev-psych” and it’s noble endevours. he was trying to “prove” evo-psych was correct, by using Game to pick me up – except he A) told me he was doing it [as if it didn’t matter whether or not i KNEW he was slime attempting to manipulate me – he really though that women are just inherently stupid] and B) did a whole bunch of things he kept saying “all women love” that i HATE [like ordering a drink for me, telling me he knew better than i did what i’d like to drink – and then got all pissy when i told him i didn’t drink and tried to tell me “this won’t work unless you work with me”. and THEN got all hurt when i said “i don’t want this to work. i *have* a boyfriend, and i’m quite happy with him] then C) accused of being a whore because i wouldn’t “go along” and told him i wasn’t interested in sleeping with him – then called me a racist because i wouldn’t sleep with him. then ran away when my boyfriend came up and offered to hold my coat for me while i kicked his ass 🙂 [and since my boyfriend is also black, he lost all credibility lol]. [this was 6 or so years ago… sadly, i’m now not capable of fighting 🙁 ]*HE* went away – but now i knew what “Game” was, that there were people who were PUAs, and i started paying attention.
maybe i should go find a PUA website and read more. any suggestions?
denelian: Nah. I’d say that lesson pretty much sums up, “Game”. It’s reductionist, and smarmy and the people who do it get offended if you call them on the bullshit they are pulling; and blame you for it.
Because you aren’t behaving properly, and the paradigm says women either fall for it, or are castrating, frigid, bitches.
Practitioners, of course, dislike my characterisation, but from looking at a lot of “Game” sites,and watching some try it (speeding dating venues are rife with “Game” players), that’s what I see.
Where’s Plymouth? Can’t tolerate being held to the issues? So, ZOOM, she’s gone, baby, gone!
Yeah, sorry, I was off having a life in the real world where actual productive things happened. This conversation was not being productive and as far as I can tell didn’t become any more so since I left. In the meantime I; collected a return on my deposit from a previous landlord, ate an In-N-Out burger, moved a refrigerator (actually two – we swapped our new landlord’s crappy one for our awesome one), watched an episode of In Plan Sight, had sex with my fiance, ate some pickled herring, went to the hardware store, watched the new episode of True Blood and fed my cats. Productive Sunday!
denelian | June 27, 2011 at 12:15 am
“maybe i should go find a PUA website and read more. any suggestions?”
I would recommend this guy Roissy:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/
Kruser is another one that comes to mind… but I consider him vile and I would not recommend him to anyone.
I usually recommend Susan Walsh to teenage girls :
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/
And for married men Dalrock and Athol Kay
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
well, then – i guess i’m a castrating, frigid bitch. and if that’s the case – if *I* am an example of “frigid” – then what the holy hell is “passionate”?! i tend to be the one wanting more sex.
erm, and i’ve never castrated anyone [but i used to work phone sex, and do you know how common castration-as-fantasy is? *shudder*]
Plymouth – i’m jealous! where do you get the ENERGY?!
denelian… I just hope they don’t want it done the way it’s done for sheep… with your teeth. It’s cleaner/less likely to infect, than when done with a knife.
I guess I should also recommend this one if you are a Christian woman.
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/
The one site I find I recommend the most though is Susan Walsh.
I recommend Susan as a guide to understanding what is going on around them, what signals they may not be aware they are sending, why they want to avoid certain behaviours and so on.
I’m kinda mildly curious about PUA since the first mention of it I ever heard was from an interesting but annoying acquaintance of mine who claims he uses it on his wife with her full knowledge and it makes their relationship stronger (and he claims she agrees – I haven’t asked her but I have no reason to doubt him). And I was kinda like “ok, if that works for you, cool, don’t think it would work for me”. Kinda like religion – I have no theoretical problems with people having most (non-violent non-brainwashing) religions but they don’t work for me.
From what I understand of it it seems like PUA mostly works on people with low or only moderate self-esteem. I think I just like myself too damned much for it work on me 🙂 Then again, I don’t think anyone has ever tried, so, *shrug*