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Arms and the Men's Rights Movement

Democracy is not a First-Person Shooter

Good news, ladies and manginas: Apparently some MRAs don’t think it’s time to go out and start shooting people. At least not quite yet.

Some background: In recent days numerous MRAs have taken up the cause of a man named Thomas Ball – who burned himself to death outside a courthouse in Keane, New Hampshire in a protest against what he saw as unfair treatment in family court. Ferdinand Bardamu of In Male Fide has declared him “a martyr for the cause of men’s rights, a casualty of feminism’s stripping one half of the population of their humanity.”

Before killing himself, Ball wrote a long manifesto outlining his grievances and suggesting that the time had come for men “to start burning down police stations and courthouses,” describing  the inhabitants of such buildings as “[c]ollaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War … So burn them out. “ (He offered specific advice on how best to do this, including tips on how to select the proper bottles to use for Molotov cocktails.)

All this has inspired some in the MRA to start talking ominously about violence. On The Spearhead, W.F. Price has responded to this talk with a piece suggesting that the time isn’t quite right for the MRAs of the world to take up armed struggle. Not just yet, anyway. As he puts it:

It is never a good idea to pick up a gun and start shooting to address some vaguely defined injustice — that is savagery. Before the American Revolution, for example, patriots took pains to spell out a long list of grievances that justified rebellion. …

We have to make our own lists, air our grievances, and give the state the opportunity to redress them. … Before anyone resorts to the same methods the state uses against us, we must put every reasonable effort into working with the law and the political system we have. Because this effort is still in its infancy, any calls for armed resistance are entirely premature and counterproductive, and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Obviously, the flip side of this argument for delay is a justification for killing people if these “grievances” aren’t dealt with in the way that those in the MRA would like. Price’s reference to the American Revolution is an interesting one, because of course the central issue of that struggle was, you know, taxation without representation. The colonists couldn’t vote out the king if they didn’t like his policies. In case anyone has forgotten: we actually do have the vote now, which was kind of the whole point in the first place.

Of course, many of Price’s readers are a bit more impatient than he is. In a comment that drew (last I checked) more than 40 upvotes and only two dissenting downvote, Taqman took issue with Price’s call to delay the armed struggle:

Tell that to men who are facing imminent imprisonment for failure to pay child support.

They don’t have the luxury of time and can’t wait a couple of decades for the manginas of the world to wake up and decide that a gentlemanly form of armed resistance is now acceptable.

The ironically named Firepower, meanwhile, took a little swipe at Ball’s own actions, but didn’t challenge his advice for the rest of the men of the world:  

What IS crazy is having to point out that setting YOURSELF on fire is a ridiculous way to “win” anything.

 Set your enemies on fire. To even have to remind this questions the long term chances of victory for such a pathetic lot.

Jean Valjean suggested that political action was pointless — due to all those damned women who vote:

No amount of “stoic logic” will make politicians see our point of view.

Politicians are in the business of getting re-elected rather than the business of good governance. So long as women are the majority there will only be tyranny of the majority.

Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c) — you knew we were getting to him, right? — expressed his profound disappointment that more Spearheaders weren’t willing to embrace a violent solution:

Gee you guys are whimps and tiptoe around the ‘use of force’ like freaking ballet dancers. Are you so scared to speak about this when it is CLEAR the guvment LOVES using force against you and lots of other people too?

And he made the argument personal, explicitly denouncing, by name, the judge he claimed had “criminally abused” him with his rulings:

Judge [name redacted’s] life is now in my hands. He lives by my consent and my consent alone. …

And, like Ball, he declared judges to be essentially treasonous:

These judges pretended to be your servants. They are evil, evil people who deserve the kind of treatment reserved for those who commit treason.

There is more to Nolan’s comment(s) than that, but to get into it would require going down the rabbit-hole into his particular brand of crackpottery, which seems to involve him setting up his own courts to try judges he doesn’t like. (I frankly don’t understand his belief system and don’t care to.)

Now, it should be noted that a few Spearheaders actually objected to Nolan’s violent talk. But the last I checked, the comment I just quoted had more upvotes than downvotes. W.F. Price took more flak for suggesting men wait a little longer before taking up arms than Nolan did for, well, you saw what he wrote. That tells you a lot about The Spearhead, I think.

EDIT: Added quote from Ferdinand Bardamu; removed similar quote from The Spearhead.

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Feyline
10 years ago

*points and snickers at Crack engaging aMiRA*

I’ve been waiting for something like that to happen since aMiRA showed up here! I was very close to being able to say ‘ROFL’ and mean it. Ah, the simple pleasures.

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Honey, thinking is NOT your strong suit, which, BTW, is why you have the cards,…No, sweety, I would not date you. I would never date anyone with “magic cards.” You’re delusional, and that would be enough to knock you out of the running.

Dude. Dude. Duuude. Can I call you “Darling”?

Magic: The Gathering is a card game some dude dreamed up to teach his preteen children about math. A card game. Card. Game. It deals with the same fantasy elements Dungeons and Dragons does but in card-game form. If it’s a cult then so is poker.

By now, I would’ve thought you could understand that just because there’s a group of you – almost a cult of sorts – you can’t win against me on my topics of expertise. …
There’s a song by the group Laibach, called F.I.A.T….These are the lyrics:
You are in black darkness and confusion. You have been hugger-muggered, and carom-shotted into a war, and you know nothing about it. You know nothing about the forces that caused it, or you know next to nothing. You ought not to be in this war. You cannot win this war.
I don’t think you “get” Laibach.

Spoiler
IT”S SATIRE

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Or, to put it another way, imagine if chess pieces had scenes from medieval life painted on them to make them more decorative.

Same. Thing.

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Of course, Cracker probably also thinks that chess players are cultists.

denelian
denelian
10 years ago

should i feel insulted or grateful that the loooooooooooooooooooooong-ass reply i gave Crack, he COMPLETELY ignored?!

ah, well – Ami, is *your* cult recruiting? is there any way to get a copy of your newsletter?

😀

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Also, what flavor is the Kool-aid? I hope it’s grape. I love grape.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I made your card Denelian (I think this was what you asked for) it’s on your FB, if you like it, I’ll put it here :]

theLaplaceDemon
theLaplaceDemon
10 years ago

aw, Crack is gone? I wanted to ask him for his specific definition of cult, since he seems to be using a different one than the rest of the world.

Also, he totally ignored me when I said his research technique often leads to confirmation bias.

Also, Mr. Crack was very critical of peoples’ insistence at proving him wrong…I just want to point this out

“The Crack Emcee | June 26, 2011 at 12:27 pm
…Somebody here is going to admit to being a liar – I came to win.”

One could perhaps argue that this mindset (“I came to win”) is more about winning than asking questions or having a discussion…

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Denelin:

Don’t worry, I too gave a long-ass reply, and he picked a single sentence out of the whole thing and responded to that. It’s almost more insulting than not responding at all, since it proves he at least read my comment. Oh well.

Crack and aMiRA… Words cannot express how much I am laughing right now…

GRA
GRA
10 years ago

Watch out, fyymyynyysts (did I put enough ys in there? Gotta show that hatred of the y gene by using ys at every opportunity, because that makes total sense!), you’re totally gonna be sucked into a DEATH CULT for enjoying Ami and her orsum cards of orsumness or anything other than Crack-sanctioned entertainment/leisure activities/internet sites/world. AND THEN YOU’LL KILL THREE PEOPLE (BY PROXY AND VERY CONVOLUTED, WOW YOU SURE ARE A BAD MURDERER) AND CRACK WILL HAVE TO RAVE ABOUT IT.

Y’all just better straighten up coz Crack is on the case now.

It’s just too sad that he’s a child abuse advocate as well as a disingenuous asshole and all-around douchebag. BUT HEY DID YOU GET THE MEMO? HE TOTES WON! (Won what, you ask? If you don’t know, you weren’t important or orsum enough to even take part, that’s what.)

He comes in here, starts by saying that a little girl who got hit in the face until her lip bled by her father was not abused.

Why?

Because! Why he was hit with boards with nails in them and various other shit by his mother whenever she felt like it BUT IT WASN’T ABUSE, it didn’t in any way contribute to him being a paranoid and delusional obsessive (yoga is a gateway to cultism? Tell me, is Harry Potter also a gateway to Sorcery and Satanism?) asshat. Nono, he’s just fine and dandy. Why, look at how good he turned out.

Crack, you’re not exactly coming off as the poster child for well-adjusted, reasonable maturity here. You’re a cautionary tale as to why people SHOULDN’T be allowed to abuse children the way your mom abused you.

It figures that you and aMiRA would get along like a house on fire.

Also LOLFOREVA @ Ami being a totes mean alpha bitch cheerleader.

Ami, you need to stop being SO MEEN and start showing that delicate gentleness women are supposed to! Coz you’re clearly a ditzy ditz with nothing between the ears except meanness and will lead everyone here to SATAN CULTS with your infernal TAROT CARDS OF EVIL MEANNESS.

(Just have to add: I <3 Ami so much, you make my day every day with something hilarious or profound you say.)

KristinMH
10 years ago

DAMN YOU REAL LIFE FOR MAKING ME MISS THIS THREAD!

It is hilarious that CE thinks Magyc cards are some kind of dangerous New Age device instead of a pretty geeky card game. Or that yoga is a gateway drug for cults! We must all thank him for warning us about the dangers of stretching and mild resistance training!

(Also, dude, if you’re still reading, your [foster]mother who hit you constantly? Was abusing you. Not all children are traumatized by abuse, but just because you – questionably – don’t consider yourself to have been affected by the abuse doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.)

denelian
denelian
10 years ago

Kirby;

yeah – gods only know what single sentence he *could* have pulled out, but the out-of-contextness would have made it even more insulting.
Kristin: that’s what i said, except it took me 5x as many words. lol

Ami – post it! its wonderful and i ♥ it utterly!!!

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

“Magyc: the Gendering” wouldn’t be a proper fantasy world setting without some fanfic, so I’ve written some. Trigger warning: contains neither sex nor violence.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Crack did the same with me. I asked some very specific questions (independent of the questions about his character), and he didn’t pay attention to them .

In fact, that seems to be what upset him most. We didn’t just take his word for it. When I look at what he said we should have done, I see what we didn’t let him do.

We, you see, were supposed to accept his expertise. We weren’t supposed to ask specific questions making him elaborate on the details, we were supposed to ask him, “What he meant” and let him explain himself.

What we did was look at what he said, and read it for content, and then asked him to defend the content. He wanted to give new content. We were very unfair to him. We actually held him to consistent standards. Looking at his posts in other places, that doesn’t happen much. As one might expect, he reacts poorly in those places too.

But he came to win… and since he has quit the field, people can now make up their minds on how that played out.

ithiliana
10 years ago

GRA: Watch out, fyymyynyysts (did I put enough ys in there? Gotta show that hatred of the y gene by using ys at every opportunity,

OMFG, an explanation of why the y hatred! Scarily, it makes sense.

denelian
denelian
10 years ago

Johnny – your “trigger warning” had me LITERALLY loling 😀

Pecunium – i suspect your right. then again, ANY person who shows up, makes a bunch of claims [with no citation other than zie’s OWN work] and then says “look it up for yourself” when challanged, is generally not the sort of person really interested in discussion/debate.

i only looked at his site – and not much of it – because i’m lazy when it comes to people who aren’t looking for anything more than adulation. if you want my adulation, you must EARN it – starting by doing the freaking work to back up your claims. one of my favorite things about manboobz is that EVERYONE here [other than trolls] can and will cite at the drop of a hat – and holds EVERYONE to that standard. i ♥ that semi-official policy 🙂

ah, well, watching your take-down of Crack was, at the very least, amusing. so thank you for that!

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@GRA awww ty :3 But I know you’re only being nice to me so I’ll invite you to all the cool parties w/ the jocks and the cheerleaders! xD

I’ve suspected for some time that a lot of the trolls are seeing me as some amalgam of every girl they ever hated in HS or something… it’s nice to have somebody basically say it xD

and he never did answer me clearly what WAS up w/ his hatred of the Magyc cards xD I agree w/ Pecunium, he says vague things, but dodges any attempt at clarity.. then he declares victory xD (also he doesn’t read me… NOPE! NEVER! he doesn’t read a thing I say! xD )

godless
godless
10 years ago

Holy crap! I can’t believe the level of hatred on this site! Having embarked on my farcical journey the family-destructo courts call justice, I can totally understand feeling suicidal. And I never hit my kids (or wife FYI). I’m not sure, but I’m not psychic and can’t determine that this dude killed himself because of a loss of power over his spouse. I think the comments here speak volumes for the posters rather than Thomas Ball.

Yes, he hit his kid and its bad and its wrong. But I’d rather not judge him. I’ll leave that to you since you lot seem better qualified to do so

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

It was Mary Wollstonecrafts daughter who wrote that:

The more I saw them, the greater became my desire to claim their protection and kindness; my heart yearned to be known and loved by these amiable creatures; to see their sweet looks directed towards me with affection, was the utmost limit of my ambition. I dared not think that they would turn from me with disdain and horror.

Its a quote from Frankenstein. The monster of Frankenstein eventually goes on to kill all who his maker loved as revenge for being made into a world where he had no one else.

I’ll let everyone here draw what they can from the quote to the case of Thomas Ball.

And I will go on to say that a lot of the discourse here has been very mean-spirited. A man killed himself by immolation, which is typically the method used by those who aren’t being listened to. Would you call Mohamed Bouazazi, or Thich Quang Duc (the burning monk) selfish cowards?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

Does the act smack of desperation? Someone here tried to make it out like he picked a horribly painful way to die as revenge. That’s sick.

Feminism has been a resounding success. From 1920 to now its been a steady stream of wins. The landscape reminds one of the British Empire in 1760, at the height of its power, and prestige. Also, its arrogance. A lot of people in this thread expressed very little sympathy in his death. How would any of you view an abused Afghan woman who drinks draino to kill herself? If you could relate any more to her, there is a problem.

Taken into context, Tom Ball hitting his child was wrong. No reasonable person would disagree with that. But we have no proof of serial abuse. We know of one single act of hitting. By itself, what do you think should be the punishment for that? How long would the punishment be? He felt the ramifications of a single act for 10 years. In no way is that reasonable, especially since he was ACQUITTED of the charge in court.

His grievance, in case you didn’t read his suicide note was that outside of the court, there was a system of bureaucracy that couldn’t be escaped. He complained about a social worker who didn’t let him see his children because “of his attitude.” Just like that. No judge, no jury. We have a social worker on the case.

How is any of this justifiable? Where is your sympathy?

denelian
denelian
9 years ago

have you ever been abused? were you, as a child, beaten or worse?

i ask not to mock, or be bitchy, but because it’s not something that one can understand without going through it.

see, most social workers have an intimate relationship with abuse. they know how it works.

in this specific case, is it possible it was a one-off? that he wasn’t an actual abuser, that just one time he did something that was, in actual fact, a non-repeatable accident?

if it had TRULY been an accident, the social worker probably thought, then he’d be penitent, or at least not actively hostile. he’d be upset that he hurt his child, and want to make up for it.

i’m not saying that it wasn’t a one-time occurrence – i’m saying, it’s very very easy to fall into a mindset that tells you “only an abuser would be MAD at this, since only an abuser would have more reason to fear the system than reason to comply with it” because FOR YEARS, for most of them actually, we couldn’t save kids until they were almost DEAD – and even then, if the parent showed “signs of remorse” – however obviously fake – the courts would almost always return custody to the person who almost killed their child.

it’s a sucky job. almost impossible. especially when it’s the job of the social worker to put the needs of the child FIRST but everyone around them whines about the “rights of the parents”. like the parents rights to have their kid trumps the CHILD’S rights to be safe? fuck that.

i don’t know that Ball was an abuser – but i know, just by his own words, that he wasn’t putting forth any effort to not look like one, to not act like one. i feel bad for any parent who has lost a child, however temporarily, to over-zealous social workers – but not anywhere NEAR as bad as i feel for all this kids, including my younger self, who were left in the homes of their abusers because social workers weren’t allowed to do their damned jobs.

princessbonbon
9 years ago

Why do people always go to dead threads to post rambling screeds?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Rampant entitlement–they think that what they have to say is so original (they probably didn’t read the whole thread and find out otherwise) that our minds will be blown. I bet they’re a lot of fun at parties.

AndrewV
9 years ago

@denelian | July 11, 2012 at 1:21 pm

The issue with social workers appears to vary depending on location country etc.

For example the Australian system appears to be more about judgement proofing the agency rather than the best interests of the child.

As for the rest of it, well by his own words, Ball refused to submit to a system that judged him guilty even though he was cleared in court.

I am not going to comment on your experiences other than to note that they are yours and encourage you to continue to deal with them. I have no answers except for what would amount to platitudes so I am not going to say more.

AndrewV
9 years ago

@princessbonbon | July 11, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Why do people respond to them?

@hellkell | July 11, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Great mind reading ability. Thanks for sharing.

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

Princessbonbon “Rambling screed”

Is that how you welcome all newcomers?

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Yeah, I’d say “rambling screed” works pretty well for the kind of newcomer you are, that is to say, a ramblingscreed writing new troll. Care to try commenting on any of the threads that aren’t over a year old? You’ll probably get a little more feedback that way.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

AndrewV: and who the fuck are you again?

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

@hellkell

I read the whole thread. CrackEmcee or whatever his name was was a weirdo that didn’t like yoga. Someone kept posting “xd” and I have no idea what that means, and the level of discourse actually dropped when the person (I assume a regular troll here) left.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Lots of Thomas Ball idolizers here today. Weird.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Is there some Thomas Ball Day in MRAland, and they thought they’d come to a dead thread to party?

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

AndrewV, he was probably a giant jerk that couldn’t let things go.

But then again, it was his perogative to be a jerk. No law against it.

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

@Snowy, did I say I idolize him? I just got in here, and already get this. C’mon.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

You’re getting a nicer welcome than most trolls.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Aww was that mean of me? Here’s an idea, maybe you could leave!

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

@Snowy

Don’t be a jerk, and don’t call me a troll. It reflects poorly on you. If there is a thread you want me to cmment on, by all means post a link.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Uh oh, does it reflects poorly on me to call you a troll? Because you sure sound like a troll. Needless to say I’m heartbroken that a troll called me a jerk. Utterly and completely.

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
9 years ago

@Danelian

No, no abuse, but I can empathize. Its not like were a different species.
Ball was probably a jerk, which makes dealing with people socially makes things worse, but social workers shouldn’t be petty tyrants about how they’re talked to.

Being a jerk isn’t smart, but it was within his rights to be one without being punished by the whim of a social worker.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

Poor Thomas Ball, a victim of the cruel system that says you can’t hit a child and be a jerk and refuse to cooperate with family court and still get custody.

When SHOULD someone lose custody, if not after that? When they, like, EAT a kid?

And he STILL had the chance to go to therapy and try in good faith to get his children back. Instead he chose to make a big dramatic statement that hurt his own children worse than anyone.

He’s no victim of the system.

Amused
9 years ago

The social worker’s responsibility was to ensure the safety of the child — a child, mind you, who had already been deliberately injured once by her father. And so, the social worker was merely doing his job when she wouldn’t let him see his children on the basis of his attitude.

Bottom line, he would not cooperate with the system that gave him numerous chances to do so. He may have had a Constitutional right to be a jerk to the social worker, but when your exercise of your Constitutional rights presents itself as evidence that you may be a danger to your kids, don’t complain that you don’t get to see them. How committed was he to his kids, anyway, if he could not even be bothered to reign in his attitude? Seriously? When you really think about it, his complaint boils down to the “system” not letting him do things his way and on his terms, without requiring any sort of compromise or adjustment on his part. Forgive me if I don’t find that complaint entirely sympathetic.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

I’ll let everyone here draw what they can from the quote to the case of Thomas Ball.

I’m curious, did anyone manage to draw anything from that quote?

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Thomas Ball… is the Frankenstein monster? I really have no idea what Diogenes The Pretentious was trying to say there.

Sharculese
9 years ago

If there is a thread you want me to cmment on, by all means post a link.

there isnt.

thanks.

Sharculese
9 years ago

on a happier note, i think this was like just before i started posting here so i dont think ive seen that thread title before, but nice work david

denelian
denelian
9 years ago

my fault for responding to the first guy… sorry 🙁

and not as well as Cliff and everyone else, too. i can never quite make myself believe that someone who isn’t cussing or calling names or whatever is REALLY a troll [and fuck – even the cussing isn’t over the line, considering how much *I* do it]

is it REALLY that hard to spell my name?

denelian
denelian
9 years ago

i do have to say – Andrew. thank you for not throwing platitudes. that was actually rather astute of you.
i’ll say this, too – i’m always more upset about a child that can’t be saved than i am by my own past. my past is written, i can’t change it – but if i’m allowed, i could change someone else’s. na da?

AndrewV
9 years ago

@denelian | July 12, 2012 at 12:32 am

Toy Soldiers
For the forgotten men and boys who suffer in silence
http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/

AndrewV
9 years ago

@Diogenes The Cynic | July 11, 2012 at 9:44 pm

“CrackEmcee or whatever his name was was a weirdo”

I did not get that he was any more weird than anyone else here (including me).

What I did think was that he had an issue in that he came here to “win” which is not usually a good idea as far as I can tell. Far better to state your side, hear what the other person has to say, ask for clarification and so on. So, even if both sides agree to disagree, both can win.

The other issue he had was (probably because he came here to win), was that when it was pointed out that Ball had in fact hit his daughter, he refused to (if memory serves) concede the point and address it. Instead, well he kept trying to ignore that inconvenient fact and still tried to “win”.

No one “won” in that exchange as far as I am concerned. The folks here as far as I know, continue to view Ball through their own ideological prism. They probably think they “won”, and in terms of how the argument was set up, they did, no question.

But they also lost big time in my opinion, because while I believe I understand where they are coming from, and the other persons point of view, they do not see where their view was lacking, and at this point, are highly unlikely to.

“Someone kept posting “xd” and I have no idea what that means”

That was probably Ami Angelwings if I remember correctly. A very nice person in my opinion, and someone well worth knowing. As to the others, well they run the full spectrum here, at least they did when I was last here. Some are worth engaging, others not much so.

denelian
denelian
9 years ago

that’s already in my feed. or is that what you’re mentioning it?