Good news, ladies and manginas: Apparently some MRAs don’t think it’s time to go out and start shooting people. At least not quite yet.
Some background: In recent days numerous MRAs have taken up the cause of a man named Thomas Ball – who burned himself to death outside a courthouse in Keane, New Hampshire in a protest against what he saw as unfair treatment in family court. Ferdinand Bardamu of In Male Fide has declared him “a martyr for the cause of men’s rights, a casualty of feminism’s stripping one half of the population of their humanity.”
Before killing himself, Ball wrote a long manifesto outlining his grievances and suggesting that the time had come for men “to start burning down police stations and courthouses,” describing the inhabitants of such buildings as “[c]ollaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War … So burn them out. “ (He offered specific advice on how best to do this, including tips on how to select the proper bottles to use for Molotov cocktails.)
All this has inspired some in the MRA to start talking ominously about violence. On The Spearhead, W.F. Price has responded to this talk with a piece suggesting that the time isn’t quite right for the MRAs of the world to take up armed struggle. Not just yet, anyway. As he puts it:
It is never a good idea to pick up a gun and start shooting to address some vaguely defined injustice — that is savagery. Before the American Revolution, for example, patriots took pains to spell out a long list of grievances that justified rebellion. …
We have to make our own lists, air our grievances, and give the state the opportunity to redress them. … Before anyone resorts to the same methods the state uses against us, we must put every reasonable effort into working with the law and the political system we have. Because this effort is still in its infancy, any calls for armed resistance are entirely premature and counterproductive, and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Obviously, the flip side of this argument for delay is a justification for killing people if these “grievances” aren’t dealt with in the way that those in the MRA would like. Price’s reference to the American Revolution is an interesting one, because of course the central issue of that struggle was, you know, taxation without representation. The colonists couldn’t vote out the king if they didn’t like his policies. In case anyone has forgotten: we actually do have the vote now, which was kind of the whole point in the first place.
Of course, many of Price’s readers are a bit more impatient than he is. In a comment that drew (last I checked) more than 40 upvotes and only two dissenting downvote, Taqman took issue with Price’s call to delay the armed struggle:
Tell that to men who are facing imminent imprisonment for failure to pay child support.
They don’t have the luxury of time and can’t wait a couple of decades for the manginas of the world to wake up and decide that a gentlemanly form of armed resistance is now acceptable.
The ironically named Firepower, meanwhile, took a little swipe at Ball’s own actions, but didn’t challenge his advice for the rest of the men of the world:
What IS crazy is having to point out that setting YOURSELF on fire is a ridiculous way to “win” anything.
Set your enemies on fire. To even have to remind this questions the long term chances of victory for such a pathetic lot.
Jean Valjean suggested that political action was pointless — due to all those damned women who vote:
No amount of “stoic logic” will make politicians see our point of view.
Politicians are in the business of getting re-elected rather than the business of good governance. So long as women are the majority there will only be tyranny of the majority.
Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c) — you knew we were getting to him, right? — expressed his profound disappointment that more Spearheaders weren’t willing to embrace a violent solution:
Gee you guys are whimps and tiptoe around the ‘use of force’ like freaking ballet dancers. Are you so scared to speak about this when it is CLEAR the guvment LOVES using force against you and lots of other people too?
And he made the argument personal, explicitly denouncing, by name, the judge he claimed had “criminally abused” him with his rulings:
Judge [name redacted’s] life is now in my hands. He lives by my consent and my consent alone. …
And, like Ball, he declared judges to be essentially treasonous:
These judges pretended to be your servants. They are evil, evil people who deserve the kind of treatment reserved for those who commit treason.
There is more to Nolan’s comment(s) than that, but to get into it would require going down the rabbit-hole into his particular brand of crackpottery, which seems to involve him setting up his own courts to try judges he doesn’t like. (I frankly don’t understand his belief system and don’t care to.)
Now, it should be noted that a few Spearheaders actually objected to Nolan’s violent talk. But the last I checked, the comment I just quoted had more upvotes than downvotes. W.F. Price took more flak for suggesting men wait a little longer before taking up arms than Nolan did for, well, you saw what he wrote. That tells you a lot about The Spearhead, I think.
EDIT: Added quote from Ferdinand Bardamu; removed similar quote from The Spearhead.
“As you said… citation(s) needed (and I notice you haven’t defended the SAVE stuff I chased down. speaking of citations).”
Can you dig that up for me again? I missed it first time round.
“@Eoghan do you think feminism believes that in the future trans women will be oppressing and harvesting cis women for their reproductive organs? xD”
No, I think that we will be doing our reproduction with machines, so long as there is no disaster that sets technology back.
@Sarah there’s also the fear of being institutionalized, medicated against your will, disbelieved etc : I never was able to be honest w/ any of my psychiatrists when I was rly rly depressed and suicidal :
I’ll ask again (since you’re V OBVIOUSLY trying to ignore me and Kirby… xD) You ARE Eoghan right?
I mean what are you afraid of in answering? xD
(and I do have the quotes to show you backed down btw (which is admirable when you have been extreme) , but I addressed my thing to Eoghan… so are you him or not? xD )
So you DON’T believe that feminism believes that?
@Eoghan and Everyone else:
I humbly submit a vote that we disengage with Middle of the Road until he does two things.
1) Admits that he got Ball’s name wrong, and explicitely says “The guy’s name was Thomas Ball.”
2) Admits, explicitely, that he is eoghan posting under a different name.
Both should be relatively painless.
I’m w/ Kirby on this :3
Just in case you missed it (it got scrolled away)
@Eoghan and Everyone else:
I humbly submit a vote that we disengage with Middle of the Road until he does two things.
1) Admits that he got Ball’s name wrong, and explicitely says “The guy’s name was Thomas Ball.”
2) Admits, explicitely, that he is eoghan posting under a different name.
Both should be relatively painless.
Ami – I’m sorry you went through all that. Our society (our? North American, I guess) is pretty screwed up about treating mental health as HEALTH, instead of as some kind of character flaw.
Eoghan,
You are dishonest hack.
Oh, and I do more to prevent child abuse before lunch on any given day than you ever have, or ever will.
I thought health care in Canadia was supposed to be better!
(ok, maybe that was a joke in poor taste. I honestly DO think Canadian health care is better. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect).
Eoghan/Middle of the Road: Not a day or two ago, you were on this site under a different handle, using Tom Ball’s story as indictment of feminism and the Family Court system. Shall I go and pull the quotes? You even accused David of mocking this man and, by extension, all men who have grievances in custody disputes and divorce in the post about Fathers’ Day. And now, not only can you not be bothered to remember this man’s name, he “might be” the wrong “poster child” for Men’s Rights. Unbelievable.
As to the more substantive parts of you post, of course the mother had to call the police. What was supposed to happen? Our system of dealing with child abuse, though far from perfect, has a series of measures in place the goals of which are to protect children and, if at all possible, keep them with their biological parents. Your speculation about the nature of Tom Ball’s offense, whether it was a one time loss of “control” and not necessarily evidence of him being a regularly abusive “monster” is utterly beside the point.
He hit his child hard enough to split her lip. And he was ordered to counseling and refused to go. This case isn’t about the “feminist state” or false allegations of child abuse. This case is about one disturbed individual who, on at least one occasion, abused his daughter and was ordered to undergo counseling. He refused to do so, his marriage dissolved, and as a direct result of his actions the court made a ruling in an effort to protect his child from further abuse. The fact that you assert that he had PTSD illustrates plainly that the courts ruling for him to undergo counseling was appropriate. And he refused. And instead of seeking the help he clearly needed, he sought out Men’s Rights communities.
Did any of them refer him to a service that could help him with his PTSD? Or did he just find a community that brushed aside his “loss of control” and encourage him to blame the court system that offered him a way to be with his family.
I’m not mocking Tom Ball’s death. The whole situation is too sad for mocking. All I can think about are his children.
And at least I can remember his name.
In future, Eoghan should only post under the name of “Wormtongue,” as he thoroughly dishonest, yet constantly accuses others of same.
“The mother as far as I know was forced to call the police under the threat of losing her child to the system, which would have been horrific for the child. So he was arrested at work and told not to go home and didn’t know that his wife’s hand had been forced and he turned his back on the whole situation..
You make it sound like an atrocity that a case of child abuse was discovered against the parents’ will–like it should be a person’s decision when and where he’ll be arrested for child abuse?
he might be the wrong self immolation / suicide to have as a poster child for men’s rights,
Damn skippy, mister.
he did hit a child, he had PTSD, but he has left a story about the feminist state.
And that story is “we hold people responsible for abusing children and not complying with treatment.” Although the end was horrific in this case, I’m generally okay with that story.”
Ok, well a lot of people arent ok with the system. For men, it generating a lot of suicides and pain, NOW are pushing for more prison for the financially disadvantaged, losing your job and falling behind on C/S can land you in a prison, and if they kill themselves no one gives a shit, out society wouldnt stand for that sort of treatment of women, but with men, its all good. And if they complain, they are mocked. what about teh menz lolz eyeroll sigh
Bit more writing here.
“In a long, deeply researched and carefully written suicide note, Ball shared his frustration with domestic violence charges and lengthy divorce proceedings that he saw as the cause of his separation from his family. He wrote of a conspiracy of feminists and government agencies set on disenfranchising men, causing widespread homelessness. He called for other fathers to take action against law enforcement and the judicial system.
Reading over the letter, Gary S. Barnes, director of MAPS Counseling Services in Keene, said it seemed to be written by a person projecting his own pain onto the world.
“All these things that he’s saying did happen to him personally, but he’s not seeing it as personal,” Barnes speculated. “The whole thing has just snowballed into this nightmare that has elements of truth.”
How about “Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire?”
I agree with Kirby! *ignores egohan*
And Ami: @Sarah there’s also the fear of being institutionalized, medicated against your will, disbelieved etc : I never was able to be honest w/ any of my psychiatrists when I was rly rly depressed and suicidal :
I know. I know so hard. I never, ever, ever want to be institutionalized again and it really colors how I deal with therapists today, and I think that really hurts my attempts at getting better now. *sigh*
And media’s protrayl of people with mental illness is harsh. It’s either this “lala haha funny” thing that makes someone quirky, or something that just makes them impossibly nutty and a danger to all and sundry, and not certainly not ever a suitable mate.
I mean. You’d be a monster to not one to date someone with only one leg, right? Or someone who’s fighting cancer? Why is it ok to not want to date someone is fighting bipolar, or depression or something? We are realy people, who are more then our illnesses!
(One of the things I really hate on okc is that question that something like “would you date someone who is depressed and taking meds?” because so many seemingly awesome people respond “no”.)
MOREoghan: Ball. not Bell. Do him the favor of actually using his name, esp. since you made such a big point about how we were all showing him disrespect.
@Plymouth it’s better in terms of that we have it paid for xD but therapy/counselling isn’t, unless it’s a psychiatrist… (outside of social services that provide those things and they tend to vanish after you’re 25 : ) the thing about Toronto though, is that we have CAMH right there setting policy for everybody on how to deal w/ mental health issues and other issues like homosexuality/transsexuality and so often when you look for help you get referred there and they are EXTREMELY backwards in all sorts of issues (like w/ trans ppl : you can wiki Ray Blanchard or Ken Zucker) and also, if you dunno exactly what you’re looking for, or if you don’t have a doctor who knows of a good psych to recommend, you can get assigned one that doesn’t understand nething you’re dealing w/ at all : (this isn’t proof btw that Canada is an evil communist place that has a broken health care system)
Eoghan – Reading over the letter, Gary S. Barnes, director of MAPS Counseling Services in Keene, said it seemed to be written by a person projecting his own pain onto the world.
“All these things that he’s saying did happen to him personally, but he’s not seeing it as personal,” Barnes speculated. “The whole thing has just snowballed into this nightmare that has elements of truth.”
Yes. This, exactly. Read over what you just copy-pasted.
This is a lot of what we’re afraid MRAs (or people listening to MRAs) might do–perceive personal problems as persecution and lash out in horrific ways as a result.
@Middle of the Road care to admit you’re Eoghan yet? Or NOT Eoghan? xD I notice you went after me so hard but when asked if you’re the person I addressed you just vanish xD
OMFG I just realized Holly is using my card of her as her avatar xD That’s AWESOME <3
I would like to go on record, not that it matters -Eoghan/Middle of the Road will just ignore me anyway- in saying that I think the recent SCOTUS position on the right to lawyers in the case of parents who are too poor to pay child support and face possible incarceration as a result.
I realize that many states do offer representation for people who find themselves in this situation, but it seems like the right to an attorney in a case that could result in a person’s incarceration should not be in question. And it is mind boggling that in this recession we can’t figure out a way to work with mothers and fathers who are too poor to pay their child support.
There has to be a better way to handle this situation.
Ok, I’m sorry.. I’m a terrible protester. but
“Reading over the letter, Gary S. Barnes, director of MAPS Counseling Services in Keene, said it seemed to be written by a person projecting his own pain onto the world.
“All these things that he’s saying did happen to him personally, but he’s not seeing it as personal,” Barnes speculated. “The whole thing has just snowballed into this nightmare that has elements of truth.””
This. This is probably exactly right. It was a man who may have gone through shitty stuff (some of which he caused) who projected his situation onto the world (by blaming some big feminist conspiracy). In other words, this quote is explaining how Ball’s letter does not describe reality.
Why would you quote this, eoghan? Why? Do you want to be proven wrong?
To make up for it, I’ll repost the two demands, before quieting again.
1) Admit you got Ball’s name wrong, and explicitely say “the guy’s name is Thomas Ball.”
2) Explicitely admit you are eoghan posting under a different name.
Kirby – Can we add a third demand of “don’t act like Nobinayamu’s comments are invisible?” Because it’s weirding me out how he’s responding to almost everyone else…
Eoghan is an odd duck. xD I’m starting to figure him out. For one, he can’t ever admit he’s wrong. If you even SUGGEST it, he goes crazy (and oh btw, I do have the quotes xD ^_^ ) and that’s why he can’t admit he’s Eoghan, he’d be admitting that David was RIGHT and that he’s not smart enuf that he got caught XDDD
@Holly yeah.. srsly >:| Agreed!