It’s always handy when one of the MGTOW brethren sums up one of the tribe’s beliefs in a handy little post. The following is what every single MRTOWer out there (not to mention many MRAs and PUAs and even some non-acronymified misogynists) seems to believe about how women live their lives today. When I say “every single MGTOWer” I’m not really exaggerating for impact – well, maybe a teensy bit. But I don’t think I’ve ever run across an MGTOWer who doesn’t take all of the following on faith.
Like many manosphere beliefs about women – like the whole “women only fuck the top 20% of men” thing – there is of course not a shred of evidence for any of this. It’s an essentially religious belief, accepted on faith. MGTOWers are like monks in the douchiest religion ever.
Anyway, fresh from a post by “Rogue” on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum, here’s how all you ladies are living your lives:
The modern woman’s life plan goes like this:
Step 1) From first sexual awakening throughout her twenties, fuck as many Alpha Asshole men (hereafter referred to as AA) as she can in a quest of sheer narcissistic hedonism. May give birth to an AA spawn during this time; party lifestyle and general female educative path (elementary teacher, social worker) results in shaky finances.
[citation needed]
Step 2) Oops, getting close to or past age 30? Find a Nice Guy Beta (hereafter referred to as NGB), dupe him into marriage with sex (he’s generally grateful for the attention, having had less than stellar success with women throughout his twenties), use his money to stabilize shaky finances. Strong likelihood of having another child or two; may again be AA spawn due to affairs. Pack on 30 pounds of fat (at least!). Cut off sex with NGB since she now has him over a barrel and was never really attracted to him in the first place. Get steadily angrier and more dissatisfied.
[citation needed]
Step 3) Divorce at or slightly before age 40; attempt to remount AA cock carousel, this time as a cougar. Fail miserably because no AA wants an old, fat female body and a loose pussy that looks like a hunk of roast beef that’s been worked over with a dozen ball-peen hammers for a month. Said failure twists her mind until her only remaining pleasure in life is to fuck with ex-NGB in various ways such as taking him back to court to raise CS payments, or denying him visitation rights to his children.
[citation needed]
Step 4) Accept that she’s past her time for the AA cock carousel; become a companion to many cats.
[citation needed]
And what’s with all the cat-hatred, anyway? Cats are adorable, endlessly fascinating little monsters who do no harm to anyone, unless you count all the times my cat has attacked me without provocation and the fact that she just threw up her dinner and is now insistently demanding a second dinner. To paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson’s character in Jackie Brown, you can trust cats to be cats.
Anyway, back to the sermon:
The marriage strike is just an attempt to short-circuit steps 2 and 3, and force women to ride step 1 as long as they can, then transition directly to step 4. Will women like the result if, instead of rushing to save them at age 30, men just shake their heads and walk away? I think it’s an experiment worth trying.
Once again: please, please, please walk away. Walk far away. Become monks in your douchy religion. Just remember that most monks who take a vow of chastity don’t spend the rest of their lives whining about how women are a bunch of filthy bitches.
Oh, and before anyone pops in with a “why do you pick on the outliers, this guy doesn’t represent bla bla bla,” the post (which naturally got nothing but huzzahs on NiceGuy’s forum) was also highlighted on the MRA blog What Men Are Saying About Women as an example of “superb” discussion of the Woman Question. This bullshit is Manosphere-Approved bullshit.
Well that’s the other thing.. ppl’s body shapes DO change, for all sorts of reasons… :
@Pecunium oh ok :] sry… I’m in a sort of gloomy mood so I think I’m a bit over-sensitive :
Also, that whole thinness as attractive thing is culturally and historically specific. For quite some time being described as ‘plump’ was a compliment – it signified that you were wealthy enough to eat regularly. I think that now, in an age of fast food where *many* working class people in the western world don’t have time for the gym or money for healthy food, being overweight has become a bad thing because no-one wants to look like they’re working class. Richer people, who have time and money for gym memberships etc., tend to be thinner so that’s where it’s gone. A desire for thin women is certainly not hardwired into men’s (or lesbian’s) brains…
I just noticed that you might have made a comment about your card… if you did.. you’re the tall one, the one in the middle
@Lyn my grandmother (Chinese from China in a completely different generation)’s ideas of attractiveness in women definitely is an example of that
My GPS does not have the Cock Carousel listed anywhere as a point of interest that I can get directions to.
I AM DISAPPOINT.
Reading everyone’s dreams makes me really wish I remembered more dreams. I must have them, but I maybe remember one every few months. I had a really disgusting/disturbing one a few nights ago that I vaguely remember but that’s it.
On the subject of what different BMI’s look like, has anyone else seen the illustrated BMI? I thought it was really interesting. IMO, most of the “overweight” people look average, not “fat”. http://www.flickr.com/photos/77367764@N00/sets/72157602199008819/
The sad part is I’m still normal (low end) according to BMI, and that’s just cuz my body can’t go lower than about 125-130lbs.. I think at the worst of my anorexia, the lowest I could get to was 125… and that was w/ me barely able to keep going and I was literally skin and bones : I think that says a lot about BMI and how useful it is an indicator of these things :
So, the MGTOWs know nothing about what life is like for women, and thus should shut up. Yet somehow the female commenters here know everything about what life is like for men and what they are doing wrong.
I smell a double standard.
And since everyone here is sharing their personal stories.
I suffer from severe ADD. I was bullied all my life since little asshole children thought it was entertaining to pick on the kid with the short temper. This continued well into puberty when the cool guys could score easy points by picking on the foreign kid with the short temper, due to this I developed severe depressions and eating disorders. Dare I say that the girls did not do the reasonable thing and just stand to one side or just tell the cool guys to quit it? No, instead they swarmed around the bullies.
Now despite all this I managed to get a master’s degree in mathematics. And even during grad school I was bullied by the cool humanities guys talking about how much more valuable they are to society and I saw how the women flocked around these kind of men.
Now a days I say. Fuck it. Screw around with whoever you please, but be very aware, next time you pretend to be my friend to be able to bring your cool guy friends in to bully me, you better bring a wheelbarrow. Because I am going to put 15 years of martial arts training to good use. Your cool boyfriend will not walk away from bullying.
Dear Tired Of It All – you may not realise this, but your school-bullying situation has applied to many young women too, with the genders directly reversed. Think back to the ugly victimised lonely girl in your year you wouldn’t have looked twice at. Did the boys stand to one side and tell the cool girls to quit it? No, instead they swarmed round the (female) bullies.
It never ceases to amaze me how completely blind you people are to the fact that many women suffer the exact same problems in life that you do yourselves. You simply don’t notice any women who don’t resemble Playboy centrefolds. Which is to say that that you don’t notice 99.9% of women.
And then your ilk has the unbelievable nerve to complain women don’t notice regular ‘nice’ guys.
Bloody hell.
Tired of it all – the female commenters here know everything about what life is like for men and what they are doing wrong.
We do? I know that “don’t be a total jerk to women” is a good start, but I haven’t exactly been offering life coaching here–has someone else?
Dare I say that the girls did not do the reasonable thing and just stand to one side or just tell the cool guys to quit it? No, instead they swarmed around the bullies.
“The girls” aren’t a monolith. I bet there were some girls who were impressed by the bullies. And others who didn’t realize what was going on. And others who realized but didn’t intervene. And others who were victims of bullying themselves. The girls who were being jerks to you were the most visible, but they were not All Girls Ever.
And even during grad school I was bullied by the cool humanities guys talking about how much more valuable they are to society
….
….
….humanities grad students? valuable to humanity?
Although, again, I have a feeling like you’re talking about one or two obnoxious people who seemed like they were everywhere, but just happened to be loud and in-your-face enough that they seemed like a huge social wave.
Bullying’s horrible and I’m sorry it happened to you, but it’s not a reason to resent all women everywhere for the actions of what I’m guessing total to about four or five teenage girls.
On the weight thing – I’m fat. And although I’ll admit I don’t like it when guys turn me down for being fat, I do understand; you like what you like, and I can’t ask someone to be physically attracted to me.
What I can ask is that you treat me as a human that you aren’t attracted to. So I don’t get you hot; I’m just as worthy of being treated politely and decently, of making friends and talking to people, of having my opinions listened to.
I don’t mind people saying “fat chicks don’t give me a boner”; what drives me up the wall is “fat chicks don’t give me a boner, so they’re completely worthless.”
Tired of it all – I don’t think anyone here was claiming to know how all men live there lives. I think it was more like people offering up suggestions based on their own interactions with men – “maybe instead of this happening it was actually THIS,” or “wow, that really isn’t anything like my life,” not “but obviously for all men it’s like THIS!”
People have also made good points about things like weight gain for women in their 30s, especially after kids – it happens. It’s hard to avoid for many women. It doesn’t signify laziness or maliciousness.
I’m sorry you were bullied. I really am. I don’t know you, or the people who did that to you. I can only speak for myself in saying that I typically do not hang out with (or sleep with) assholes like that.
Holly: “….humanities grad students? valuable to humanity?”
I chuckled.
Also, while we are all up with the anecdotes, I’m pretty sure most of the men I’ve slept with count as “betas” too. Lots of smart nerdy dudes.
Although (brevity failure!) I am kind of curious about definitions in the “greek” system. Is sleeping with lots of ladies necessary or sufficient criteria for alphas, or neither? Could you still be an alpha and not get laid a lot? ’cause I remember a conversation awhile back where short, stereotypically-unattractive actors came up, and someone said that their prestige as actors and money made them alphas despite otherwise “beta” characteristics. So if I “beta” dude gets laid a lot, but doesn’t have money or fame, is he an alpha? Or is that just inconceivable in PUA land?
tl;dr: Does getting laid a lot automatically make you an alpha?
I often have extremely vivid dreams, some good some bad. One of the worst ones was where I was trying to get a bunch of creepy people (similar to the little girls from the shining) out of a room. And whenever I got one out, another one came in.
Finally, there was only one girl left, and I pushed her out the (only) door and turned around with relief. Then I heard her behind me, turned again, saw her, and screamed “WHAT THE F**K”
Except I screamed it out loud and woke myself up (and my bed partner)
MRAL: You don’t believe “a lot of the stuff here” — and yet you apparently expect us to believe what you say?
Do you see the problem there? It’s another manifestation of your belief that you are the only “real” person online.
Why the fuck do you NOT believe what other people say about themselves? What possible fucking reason could you have?
Am and Kirbywarp: I always like to check with the artists–would it be OK for me to post the cards and such (NOT hotlinking of course) over at my Dreamwidth/Livejournanal? They are so fantastic as an example of satiric and transformative works!
I did that. As a complete joke, to show how fucking ridiculous it is to think that you can know somebody’s life plan just by knowing the shape of their genitalia.
Since you missed that elementary element of humor and satire, I conclude that you have no sense of humor.
GOD! What is it with MEN! They have no sense of HUMOR, can you believe this guy? Lighten up dood, can’t you take a joke?
/humor
Ooooh, an internet tough guy.
This is me shaking in my boots. Can you see me shaking? Oh right, you can’t, because this is an online forum and we’re not actually in the same room together.
Idiot. Threats of physical violence are not appropriate. A bannable offense, if I recall correctly.
The false belief that sexual attractiveness is an objective standard is damaging to men as well as women. Where women are told that failure to meet a certain arbitrary standard means they are not deserving of empathy and love and other basic human needs, men are told that failure to be attracted to the appropriate person means they are not a “real” man, probably a mangina or a fag, who is not deserving of empathy and love and other basic human needs.
Talk about shaming language. Men use it against each other to enforce heteronormativity and abstract beauty standards. Are MRAs making a big fuss about this type of shaming language? No they are not.
Ack. It’s like I can’t manage to do any thing more than lurk here. Comment threads move so fast, and I work, and ManBoobz is NOT worksafe. Plus spending time with FoSB. So- I dated a lot of probably-beta dudes. One maybe omega, and a handful of alphas. I think I probably rode A cock carousel, but I don’t think it was an alpha or a bad boy one. The last dude I lived with was tall, but chunky (6’3, probably 220), and in the Army, but he was the abusive one with RAGE. I dated a carpenter fairly briefly, who was about 5’7, and a bit skinny. And then FoSB, who is certainly what MRAL would call an alpha. 6’2, 180, he used to work out a lot before recruiting turned into 15 hour work days. We live together, and joke about “enacting Plan B” (getting married for the money the Marines would give him for having a spouse, and also my getting some of his GI Bill for school). But then, we also talk about the day where I might make more money than him. I plan to be a translator in both German and Russian. But FoSB is at the end of a relatively long string of serious, semi-serious, and hook-up sorts of relationships. But that meant that I knew what I wanted when he rolled around. and see? Aren’t we cute? http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/222689_995871818039_30814916_45240181_1590994_n.jpg
There was a “Barbeque and Brews” festival/fun fair in a local park last weekend. I didn’t go, being a vegetarian and off booze for the time being, but I did walk through the park with my dogs while they were setting up.
You know what? NO BAD BOY COCK CAROUSEL! I was highly disappointed. What are we teaching our children? How are young girls ever going to learn the Woman Life Plan if we don’t start in early childhood?
Ami – first *hugs*, and second LOVE LOVE LOVE the Magic cards. I’m going against the crowd and voting #2 for Holly’s.
In other news, one of my dogs (the one I posted a picture of the other day) managed to catch and kill a rat in the backyard. I don’t know whether I should be proud or somewhat disturbed.
Tired of it all: I think in my comments here I assumed to know something about the lives of MGTOWs, based on the name of the group they choose to identify with. I think that’s fair. I can also, if you’d like, tell you a little bit about the men I know, at least in a really general way, to say that, in my experience, not only do All the Women fail to live up to the worldview that was laid out in the OP, but All the Men do too.
And it sucks that you were bullied. Really, really, really sucks. Some kids did stupid-ass, reprehensible shit to you — shame on them! Kids SUCK. And these kids may have sucked even worse than regular sucky kids. And probably some adults deserve some blaming too.
But as for your desire to turn part of what happened to you into a general statement on How the World Works, Sex-wise — just no. You seem to recognize that not all guys bully. Just some — you call them the “cool guys.” And yet all women act exactly the same. Sounds … suspiciously validating for you. And wrong.
My sexual history is a consistently patchworky patchwork of betas and omegas (as if that means anything… ordinary average guys and losers, anyway) and I’m closer to 30 than 20. Apparently I missed my ride on the AA cock carousel.
And no, I am not lying about this–not claiming to sleep with betas while actually sleeping with alphas, just to groom the beta that I’ll need to marry later. Not only am I more honest than that… I’m not nearly that good at planning.
It all makes me wonder, though; what do these guys want? If they could design a woman’s life plan, what would they write in? Here’s the best I’ve got:
Step 1) Groom self to physical perfection. Diet (and have surgery as needed) until your body resembles a store mannequin. Become expert in makeup application, fashion, and hairstyling, while never being “high maintenance.” Also learn social skills, to include–agreeing with men, shutting up while men talk, initiating sex with men.
Step 2) Immediately upon graduation from high school–if not earlier–marry a deserving man. Not a nice one, a cute one, a rich one, or one you connect with; one who deserves a woman goddammit.
Step 3) Work full-time while raising his children and keeping his house and serving him and keeping him sexually entertained. (You may pursue your own interests and goals during your copious free time.) Do not allow your appearance or personality developed in Step 1 to backslide at all, even after the third kid. Dutifully ignore any affairs–boys will be boys, won’t they?
(The question of which job to take is complex. If you do something stereotypically feminine, you’re forcing men to do all the hard and dangerous work; if you do something hard and dangerous, you’re too intimidating and probably some sort of feminist. Maybe try secretarial work in a coal mine.)
Step 4) Should the man choose to divorce you, accept this with dignity and continue to raise his children, at your sole expense, while allowing him unlimited visitation regardless of the circumstances or causes of the divorce. Should he not choose to divorce you, continue the “work hard and don’t make waves” ethos indefinitely.
Step 5) Die.
Tired of it all So, the MGTOWs know nothing about what life is like for women, and thus should shut up. Yet somehow the female commenters here know everything about what life is like for men and what they are doing wrong.
I think you’ve been paying less than complete attention. The commenters here (male and female) have been saying the specific claims of MGTOWs are not consonant with reality as we understand it.
That, or engaging in mockery of the way they present themselves, and the world.
The MGTOWs have been explaining why/how/what women, as a whole, do: always and everywhere.
Since you are equating those two things, yes there is a double standard, and you are the one applying it.
Now a days I say. Fuck it. Screw around with whoever you please, but be very aware, next time you pretend to be my friend to be able to bring your cool guy friends in to bully me, you better bring a wheelbarrow. Because I am going to put 15 years of martial arts training to good use. Your cool boyfriend will not walk away from bullying.
Please. One… fighting is not the same as time in the Dojo. So yes, depending on your art, and your mindset, and the advantage of surprise/violenece of attack you might be able to win, you’ll also end up in jail.
I commend the writings of a friend of mine, Marc MacYoung, His website (No Nonsense Self Defense) explains why what you are talking about will land you in hospital, jail, or both.
Start here with, The cost of Winning and with What is Self Defense vs. fighting, combat, competition
Honestly, if you want to get into a fight, and go to prison because you’ve got a load of butt-hurt from people who treated you badly in the past… go for it, but don’t pretend it’s some sort of balancing the books for present wrongs. what you are talking about is both stupid (what sort of, “bullying” are you talking about… put downs and insults… or someone punching you in the face… there is a world of difference between them, and even the latter has a limited set of responses which won’t land one, at the very least, in the station being booked for battery/mayhem), immoral, and illegal.
I know you aren’t likely to but trust us (me, and Marc) on this one. What you are talking about is a ticket to trouble.
Step 4.5- Graciously step aside when your Fembot-Robo-uterus replacement steps off the production line. You’ve definitely not followed all the above rules without some missteps, lady, and what’s a man to do with a fuck up like yourself, when this perfect, sexy technology finally comes around?