Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
ngz – As I am, in fact, Eve Ensler, your pointing out my hypocrisy has SLAIN me.
However, I do have to point out that no one here is shaming young women who date older men. We’re shaming the older men–the ones in control of the situation–for reasons we’ve explained in detail.
Also, I am really, really not jealous of 16-year-olds’ abilities to draw the most immature, sexually exploitative, and unable-to-deal-with-people-their-own-age members of my age cohort. I can quite honestly do without those dudes; I just hate that they’re inflicting it on people too young to know better, as I once was myself.
-Eve Ensler
ngz3120:
“I wager that the politically correct peanut gallery here hold people to different standards depending on their genetic code, sexuality and political affiliations. The correctness of an action depending on the gender and sexuality of the actor and the one supposedly acted upon.
Women it seems are threatened by younger women, often a man who is noticeably older than his adult female partner is labelled “pathetic” and a “pervert” and the younger woman will also be sexually shamed and given various labels… I think that there is merit in the mens movement theory that aspects of feminism are about older women looking after their own reproductive interests.”
All this is wrong. But hey, don’t take my word for it. Why don’t you actually ask what our positions are on the matter rather than simply declaring them? That way we won’t have to deal with defending possible strawmen. Seriously; ask and you will receive. Answers. Or scorn. Depending on your attitude.
@Holly who said —
“I hate people who are in favor of men’s rights to fuck high-schoolers.”
But there’s a whole subculture that romanticizes the older woman/teenage boy combination (books, music, movies, television shows etc). And society didnt really have much to say about it until Mary Kay LeTourneau…and even know people are no longer outraged by that because they happened to get married.
When a woman does the same to a boy, one of two things happen…either he is shamed into shutting up and taking it, developing huge inner conflict if he is so ungrateful as to not LIKE it or, we explain her behavior away saying she has a mental illness and needs therapy and medication.
When the roles are reversed, the older man is cast as a dirty old man who should be murdered in the street and the girl is told she has no capacity for consent because she’s a child.
and NO ONE sees a double standard here?
Im not advocating for one or the other here, at all. Like most everyone else posting on this thread, I had a relationship with much a older guy…. when I was 15 I was sleeping with a 20 year old. It didnt fuck me up mentally or sexually, and it went on for 2 years.
“No, Xtra, MRA’s hate feminISM….huge difference”
Well, Natasha (long time, no see!), depending on the MRA (they are not a monolithic block, you know), they appear to hate feminism, feminists, women in general, western women, older women, fat women, people of color, “alpha” men, nonvirgins, sluts, women who won’t put out, manginas, modernity, and a host of other people and concepts. It would actually be easier for me to come up with a list of things I haven’t seen an MRA say xie hated.
I’m with Holly about the impossibility of “true love” between adults and teenagers. The power dynamic is impassible. It is going to be an ever present reality throughout that relationship, regardless of how independent and mature this hypothetical teenager may be. I don’t think love is really possible in such an imbalanced relationship. Affection, lust, infatuation–yes. But not love. A partnership can’t exist in that dynamic.
Natasha – I think it’s quite sick when older women sleep with teenage boys, actually.
That wasn’t the discussion at hand with NWO, but no, I absolutely do not think it’s okay or excusable for any older adult to have sex with any teenager.
Oh Bee, lol
Its funny how you just told me all the things Im supposed to hate…when in fact I hate none of them. You open with saying how the MRM is not a monolithic block, but then make a post that outlines all the things you think we appear to hate as if its fact…
Kind of like me saying that I know all feminists arent like this, but feminism represents a hatred for men and boys, bald men, fat men, tall men, short men, men who work, men who do not work, men who are fathers, men who are not fathers, men who ARE their fathers and any woman who does not wear flannel.
See how its all kind of just semantics at this point?
Natasha – Well, you have to hate some feminists if you hate feminism, unless you think the beliefs just came out of the aether or something.
“…and any woman who does not wear flannel.”
I guess this means I hate myself. And my boyfriend. And my dad, and my brother. I’ll be sure to let them know when I call dad for Father’s Day tomorrow.
I’d agree that older women fucking teenagers is fucked up.
As for the whole do-MRAs-hate-feminists-or-feminism issue, this is a distinction I almost never see made on MRA sites, where many people quite openly say that they hate feminISTS. Like this MRA:
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/whats-up-with-this-mens-movement/2/
Actually, a lot of MRAs seem to have trouble telling the difference between feminists and women in general. And plenty, even if they can tell the difference, who simply hate all women. As for proof, see virtually any post on this site.
I’m a feminist and I like men, boys, bald men, fat men, tall men, short men, etc. and I also do not wear flannel.
So am I not really a feminist, or am I lying and I secretly hate non-flannel-wearers?
To answer the first suggests that feminism is defined by anti-feminists and not by the people actually practicing feminism; to answer the second suggests psychic ability.
Holly, how can you say you arent against people who are for mens rights, then say you hate mra’s? what am I missing there?
“To be specific, I don’t even necessarily hate people who are in favor of men’s rights.” ~Holly
“I don’t hate men, NWO. I hate MRAs.” ~Holly
But you (individually, and et al) claim the same ‘psychic ability’ when describing mra’s…or does that one way mirror only work for you?
Eve
I was talking about women in general that have concocted the sexual shaming of both the older man and the younger woman with him. Feminists don’t hold women accountable for much and are conditioned to view her in the victim role so of course they will only shame the male, out in public like this anyway.
Holly, age doesn’t equal control and control isn’t always bad. Lolita for example, and I was posting with a man who dated a much younger woman recently and he said that she, if anyone was in control. Myself at 15, for some reason was attractive to women in their mid twenties, one in particular was very generous and introduced me to various adult things, including taking control of a woman sexually. My current same age partner, likes to role play a 15 year old girl being taught by me, a man more than twice her age. It is a fantasy that she had that went unfulfilled you see.
Age differentials when the male is the older component as inherently or almost always bad and exploitative, is a female construct that’s present in feminism. The same bigotry isn’t applied when the genders are reversed or other sexualities are involved (homophobic religious nutcases excluded), there is a political dimension too, as is the case here in the OP.
@Natasha, nice try but as I recall, the first quote you attribute to Holly was actually a follow up to the second quote, and clarified her position. If you can’t defend your position without twisting facts, fuck off.
@Holly Pervocracy… “I love you so much that I have to fuck you,” is teenager logic, and thus is only honest when expressed between two teenagers.”
Love and love making are intertwined. When a man loves a woman he wants to make love. This is natural and good. As always I answer a million questions, so here’s mine to you. Do women think of sex as a means of power over someone?
@Plymouth….You said you’re a test engineer. You might be quite good, in fact excellent at your job and deserve it immensly. Here’s the problem, in companies over a certain amount of employee’s and any company that wants a Guv contract a certain percentage of high paid employee’s must be women in order to either stay in business or get those Guv contracts. This is feminist doctrine imposed upon society, this is wrong. Gender is the only qualification. My question to you is. Is this equality?
@Nobinayamu… “Strangely enough, not one of those guys had the courage to pick me up at my house and stand, flat-footed in front of my father.”
The reasons for this are feminist indoctrination. First of all these men knew they would go to jail, (a fine detterent if ever there was one). Second being indoctrnated by the State/media/schools that this is somehow wrong has done it job. Men are reviled for daring to like a girl that might even be 2 years younger. That magic threshold of 18. Right now the UN/US is trying to raise that age to 21. My question to you is. Will you advocate and abide by that ruling should it pass?
@papr1ka… “it’s generally recommended that people don’t start getting mammograms until a little later in life, when the radiation risk posed by the procedure is significantly outweighed by the positive impact that breast cancer screening can have.”
If you are a woman, (can’t tell by the name) and you are “a little later in life” than get one every week for a year and let me know the results. Ionized radiation is cumlative, so if 20 doses will cause a particular woman to get cancer, the time it takes/or the time in between doses is irrelevant. The dose recieved never goes away, it doesn’t dissapate. So if she gets 1 every six months she gets cancer in 10 years, if she gets 1 every year she gets cancer in 20 years. The end result is the same. Radiation causes cancer.
@kirbywarp…Your so called debunking of my statements consists of either mockery or, I know you are but what am I.
Lol Natasha! You can tell me how much it’s totally all an argument about semantics when you can point me toward several examples of feminists expressing hatred for … bald men, to pick an example from your list.
Im merely pointing out the ridiculousness on both sides…Im an MRA…Im also a woman, who is very feminine, I dont own ANY flannel and I love my father and my S.O. who is also a man, and i really dont care if anyone is fat or bald ….but because I advocate for mens rights and/or because im NOT a feminist, there are all sorts of traits that get attributed to me…im SAYING that this is a goddamn useless conversation unless people on both sides are honest about the fact that there is a certain amount of bullshit and large amounts of grey areas when it comes to this topic.
I can’t stand women who have sex with teenage boys and I hate the way so many adults act like it’s no big deal. It is a big deal; I’ve known men who were fucked up because of it. It bothers me how the whole thing is all too often treated with a wink.
In short, I don’t think woke accused/convicted or statutory rape should be treated any differently than men.
“Actually, a lot of MRAs seem to have trouble telling the difference between feminists and women in general. And plenty, even if they can tell the difference, who simply hate all women. As for proof, see virtually any post on this site.”
Hilarious, this site runs on cherry picking an extreme minority of comments and presenting them in a vacuum, its not proof of anything but intellectual dishonesty, the absence of a real counter argument against the mrm and contempt for abuse victims that aren’t the right gender.
@NWO:
I haven’t used the word debunking in relation to you.. At all.. I don’t think I ever have, though I may not remember the distant past. So what exactly was my debunking? Was it me pointing out how you like to pose a bunch of rediculous questions and equivocate those with people asking you to clarify your position? And when exactly did I say anything that amounts to “I know you are but what am I?” Or is this too many questions for you to handle?
@Ngz: Lolita was fictional. It doesn’t work as an example of real life relationships–or of fictional ones, for that matter. Humbert Humbert is clearly portrayed as a predator.
NWO – I don’t think of sex as a means of power. But sex can be an exercise of power. If you have power over someone, you can coerce them into having sex with you.
Love and love making are intertwined. When a man loves a woman he wants to make love. This is natural and good.
No, when a man is horny for a woman he wants to make love. There’s love without sex as well as vice versa.
And you know, it’s possible to want to fuck someone, and yet not do it, if you understand that it would be unfair to them. If you love someone and you’re horny for them, but you know that they can’t give free and mature consent to sex, or that they are likely to feel hurt or cheapened by having sex with you, or that they believe the sex indicates a commitment you are not actually making, then you should love them enough to not fuck them.
Moving this up here to the front.
Eve
I was talking about women in general that have concocted the sexual shaming of both the older man and the younger woman with him. Feminists don’t hold women accountable for much and are conditioned to view her in the victim role so of course they will only shame the male, out in public like this anyway.
Holly, age doesn’t equal control and control isn’t always bad. Lolita for example, and I was posting with a man who dated a much younger woman recently and he said that she, if anyone was in control. Myself at 15, for some reason was attractive to women in their mid twenties, one in particular was very generous and introduced me to various adult things, including taking control of a woman sexually. My current same age partner, likes to role play a 15 year old girl being taught by me, a man more than twice her age. It is a fantasy that she had that went unfulfilled you see.
Age differentials when the male is the older component as inherently or almost always bad and exploitative, is a female construct that’s present in feminism. The same bigotry isn’t applied when the genders are reversed or other sexualities are involved (homophobic religious nutcases excluded), there is a political dimension too, as is the case here in the OP.
Natasha, there is a difference between men’s rights and the Men’s Rights Movment. I am for men’s rights. But I think the MRM is a retrograde movement that’s bad for women AND for men.
A couple of examples:
The group Just Detention, for example, fights for the rights of men in prison (and women as well, though since there are more men than women in prison their work benefits far more men than women). That’s something I support.
I see very little support in the MRM for this group; when MRAs talk about prison rape they generally use the issue to minimize the issue of women being raped outside of prison, and they do almost no practical work to actually help rape victims (male or female) in prison. The MRM does very little practical work to help men AT ALL; most of the energy is spent castigating women and feminists,
And I think there are plenty of harmful stereotypes about men, which can cause lots of problems for individual men. Like the idea that men are basically beasts driven to rape by women dressing provocatively. Virtually every MRA article I’ve read about the SlutWalks reinforces this stereotype.