Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
Kirby, in an ideal world, yes. Parents would all be perfectly rational and, themselves, well-educated and informed. Their own relationships would be healthy and they would be able to speak frankly and honestly with their children about sex and relationships in such a way to steer them into making the best possible decisions.
But you know better. It’s difficult to imagine how a sex-ed class that tried to deal beyond the purely biological would work. I’d settle for classes that explained why you need to use condoms and birth control. For the love of god, please use condoms.
“On schooling, while I think its a great idea, don’t the parents have some responsibility to teach their kids about these things? Should it really be left up to the school?”
I guess we’d have to prove that a lot of parents were incompetent in some way? >>
@Molly:
I wonder how likely that would be to be the case? The maturity test wouldn’t have to be particularly difficult, and it would be trying to assess mental ability rather than (necessarily) knowledge. If they didn’t pass, in an idea world, it would indicate they still had the minds of children, and therefore wouldn’t be able to do the things you’ve mentioned because they wouldn’t be capable of things like consent.
Molly – I wouldn’t be comfortable with an absolute “maturity test”–it seems difficult, among other issues, to separate “maturity” from culture and ability–but maybe something like a learner’s permit. You’re a legal adult at 18 no matter what, but 16 if you pass the test.
“it seems difficult, among other issues, to separate ‘maturity’ from culture and ability”
Why has it taken me this long to realize maturity can be cultural? o.O
@Nobinayamu:
No, I do know that. Good point.
On the plus side, I did take a sex ed class that wasn’t absitance only, and in fact we did cover the use of contraception and all that. It was probably very useful (hard to tell what it would be like without it). Abstenance-only education has been a proven failure, and its a wonder we don’t just ban it. Texas, one implementer of it, has some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STI/STDs in the country because of it.
@Holly:
Thats actually a very very good idea. It might not have to be 18, but the age of majority would simultaneously be a pass for decision making as well, and consent could be individually assessed for persons under the majority age.
Nobinayamu | June 18, 2011 at 10:34 pm
@Kirby: I hesitate to think immediately “18″ because it feels very U.S.-centric. But it’s always the number that sticks out for me.
Yeah that’s what I was saying to Molly Ren earlier : That cuz of the US narrative (which isn’t even law in most of the States when it comes to age of consent for sex) and what we get from the media, TV, fiction, and just the way ppl talk about these issues (case in point NWO going straight to 18 as the default even tho it’s not true in most of America.. you’d think a guy so afraid of the state and feminists wanting to jail him and so eager to have smex w/ 18, or is that 17 or 16 y/os xD would have all of this stuff memorized for his own safety) all lead to us “knowing” that 18 is the age of majority, the age when ppl are adults, the age when ppl SHOULD be able to make decisions about their lives and their bodies… but not before… and that’s what I want a discussion about and not just w/ us. I mean like I think our societies rly need one, an honest one, where we’re not afraid to talk about what actually happens IRL, good and bad, where we don’t hide from issues about trans kids and teens, or abortions, or omg kids have sex, and the fear/threat/reality of adults that might try to coerce kids, of real sex ed, or a culture that doesn’t try to pretend NONE of the above happens etc etc. And that discussion must also involve young ppl, b/c this affects them, and we can keep in mind their maturity level and experiences (tho depending on experiences, young ppl can be surprisingly mature (and as we know, some adults can be amazingly IMMATURE xD ), sometimes I think we assume certain things about the hypothetical child that we talk about) while we listen to them. :]
So what would have to happen for us to get this implemented?
@Molly:
First, all current US politicians would have to leave office or die off. Second, all of them would be replaced by politicians who hold the same views, but are willing to consider the idea that we don’t have to rely on the past to determine what is good for the future.
Then it amounts to making a good case for the way things should be, gathering data on children’s mental capabilities as they age, and lots of lobbying.
Wacky fact: when I was a kid, I lived for a couple years in a very remote area, outside the US, without water fluoridation.
So the dentist gave me fluoride tablets.
Amazing how a dentist–a dentist who’s not even American!–can be a tool of the Man. (Also, I have very good teeth, but I’m sure that’s a random coincidence.)
My sister always reminds me that children have no advocates. They don’t pay taxes and they can’t vote. We rely almost entirely on their parents to represent their interests and cross our fingers.
I think the only way to even half way start would be to get rid of abstinence only education.
A life skills class for high school students would also be a very good idea. Many of the principles taught in conflict resolution are directly translatable to romantic relationships.
“all lead to us “knowing” that 18 is the age of majority, the age when ppl are adults, the age when ppl SHOULD be able to make decisions about their lives and their bodies… but not before… and that’s what I want a discussion about and not just w/ us. I mean like I think our societies rly need one, an honest one, where we’re not afraid to talk about what actually happens IRL, good and bad, where we don’t hide from issues about trans kids and teens, or abortions, or omg kids have sex, and the fear/threat/reality of adults that might try to coerce kids, of real sex ed, or a culture that doesn’t try to pretend NONE of the above happens etc etc.”
So… agh, I dunno how to address going younger than 18… or, heck, even 14. I think what ties my hands is that I know almost nothing about child development.
“My sister always reminds me that children have no advocates. They don’t pay taxes and they can’t vote. We rely almost entirely on their parents to represent their interests and cross our fingers.”
Then we get into stuff like child labor laws.
When we discuss the ways in which children used to have more responsibility, we can’t ignore the fact that we also used to treat children kind of shamefully. We didn’t have laws preventing child labor. Children were regularly pulled out of school if their families needed them to earn income. The school year itself was designed around the growing season.
It’s one thing to suggest that children and teenagers are capable of much more responsibility. I don’t completely disagree. But the reality of the modern world is that very few of them will grow up to be farmers. There opportunities and options will be severely limited if they don’t receive a decent education. We can see that for ourselves.
We have to achieve some sort of balance between reasonable autonomy and our responsibility to help them provide for their future.
Nobinayamu: I give up. I’m out of synonyms for “ridiculous” and “absurd”
I’d just go with… NWO, you ignorant slut.
I mean it’s also true you can say he’s fractally wrong, or that he’s got all the coherence of salt in water, that he’s risen to theatrical levels not seen since the writings of Ionescu, That the vastness of his wrongfulness is almost enough to fill the Marianas Trench, that his errors cannot be duplicated buy millions of Frenchman; or that the canonic infinity of monkeys would crank out the entire works of Shakespeare (twice) before they came close to producing half the errors of NWO, That the Combined Efforts of Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Cuvier, Agassi, and Edison fail to counterbalance his wrongness….
Yeah, I’m starting to run out of synonyms too…
And that’s just for his level of wrong, it fails completely to deal with his tendency to lie.
@Molly Ren: Exactly. She always says that she truly believes that most parents are doing the very best that they can. Doesn’t change the fact that sometimes their best falls woefully short.
@Molly Ren:
“I think what ties my hands is that I know almost nothing about child development.”
Wouldn’t be surprised if that was true for a lot of us. But we still have something to say on the matter, including anecdotes of being kids and of recognizing what some kids out there are capable/incapable of doing. The 18 thing is sorta beat into you from day one in the US, but recognizing that maturity is partly influenced by culture may help you realize that 18 isn’t necessarily a good cut-off point (strictly from a biological perspective).
My friend’s grandfather got a job at the coal mine stomping on big pieces of coal, to break them into smaller pieces of coal, when he was 7 or 8. I don’t think that that’s a great argument for making children work dangerous (or any) jobs in the present-day. I mean, look. The longer kids stay in school, the more kids graduate high school, the better education they get, the better off society at large is.
And I think that’s where I keep coming down on the age of consent thing, too. For me, giving kids complete freedom to do whatever they like is tied into the idea of guardianship. If 14-year-olds can drink and smoke, consent to sex, and join the army — then I start to wonder at what point their parents no longer have to be responsible for them, potentially freeing them from some day-to-day obligations of life so they can attend school and better prepare for adulthood. I’m thinking, at least a little bit, of my boyfriend. By the time he was 18, he and his ex had had two children*; his mom, recovering from a bad divorce and going on her own little dating spree, misjudged his maturity and let him live alone, drop out of school, and party, from the time he was 15 on. I don’t know. I’m kind of getting all my ideas muddied here — I feel conflicted about his experience, because I love his mom, and I acknowledge that he didn’t completely screw up his life, but I can’t help but feel sad for 15-year-old him. Based on his experience (and my own), I feel like having some stricter, adult-drawn rules and limits can be helpful, especially for a kid who doesn’t have a great handle on what’s going on yet.
Whether those rules and limits have to be set at 15, 16, 17, 18, or 25, I don’t know. (I’m thinking more like 17-18, and less like 25, though.) I don’t like the total abandonment/no rules option, but the no autonomy/total domination thing doesn’t work either, of course. And there are no laws that say, for example, that parents must allow their children to provide meaningful input on the subject of their own health. I mean, my parents made me have surgery at a fairly young age. And I’m still a little conflicted about that.
Ah, one more thing that always comes up in these conversations. People with cognitive disabilities. I’m torn between wanting to recognize that people with cognitive disabilities are at risk for abusive relationships; and yet — adults with disabilities deserve a chance at a loving relationship. So I’m a little on alert whenever something like the sex maturity test is proposed.
tl;dr I’m not sure if any of this makes sense. I guess my main concern with getting rid of legal distinctions between children and adults is that I feel like it could lead to parents not being responsible for their children’s well-being at a lowered age. And I don’t see why we’re forever wanting to turn back the clock in this country, to revisit things that we’ve already seen are hugely problematic, such as low graduation rates and child endangerment.
*Neither was arrested for statutory rape, oddly.
@Kirby I think an overhaul is in order. For all SORTS of things. xD The age of consent, age of maturity, etc is one, as I said before. Why work from a flawed model that was based on things we haven’t believed in for decades or based in myths, fears, or religious beliefs? Also I think even tho things are complex, in the whole the simpler the better, and based upon some principles (not that I know for sure what they SHOULD be, but I keep bringing up the right to body autonomy as one)… cuz I’m concerned that it’ll just be on what ppl are morally and personally ok w/ will result in “well this should be an exception just cuz”… for EXAMPLE (this is not saying NEBODY here believes this)… the age of sexual consent should be 18, b/c any younger and the child might be in danger of being coerced by an adult, but I think that trans ppl should be able to consent to hormones at age 16 b/c they obv know what they want. And the opposite… age of consent should be 16, have you seen what kids these days alrdy know by 14!? but how can we rly know if a trans person has consented or is being manipulated by a 30-50 y/o psychiatrist until they’re 18? (which is brought up a LOT, actually even past age 18 xD but esp for the kids) and etc… (i know these are kinda straw examples, but these views are def out there and not uncommon : )
I dun think a maturity test is a good idea, just cuz how do you test maturity? And how do we agree what makes a person mature? : I’m concerned b/c there are a lot of issues where simply WANTING something is often used as proof that you dunno what you’re doing, esp for kids. 😐 Is it a written test? Or like a driving test is there a real life component? That would creep me out : And the written test sounds like ppl would just pass on the answers to their friends : Or study guides would pop up, which COULD be good I guess cuz it’d train ppl… or it’d mean v little :
The thing is it will def be used as a political tool tho. What’s on the test? Esp since this means ppl will be able to vote 2 years younger. There are going to be accusations that the test is being used to filter out certain potential voters, or there will be attempts to change it : And will every state have their own maturity test? : It kinda feels like we’re creating 2nd class citizens based on some idea of maturity that I’m concerned about turning into a right or wrong test format : (it’s complicated enuf debating about where age of consent laws should be, and the various situations, and all the grey area.. now we’re taking that and turning it into a black and white thing : )
And honestly, it scares me about the government testing ppl’s capacity to be able to control their own bodies :
@Bee
Ah, one more thing that always comes up in these conversations. People with cognitive disabilities. I’m torn between wanting to recognize that people with cognitive disabilities are at risk for abusive relationships; and yet — adults with disabilities deserve a chance at a loving relationship. So I’m a little on alert whenever something like the sex maturity test is proposed.
Exactly. That is what I’m concerned about as well. :
And you make a v good point about the fear of parents feeling like they can dump their kids out at 14 (or whenever ) that would be one of the trade offs/concerns/something to address/etc. Tho alrdy parents do kick their kids out for all sorts of reasons, that are also some of the reasons I have mentioned above about rights to their own body (abortion, pregnancy, homosexuality, transsexuality) 😐
Wow, this thread just exploded since I last looked in on it.
Let me guess: slavey made a bunch of disingenuous arguments, pulled a number of “facts” out of his ass, and simplistically misrepresented what other people said. When confronted on his asshattery, he then pulled the passive aggressive “gosh, I guess I’m just wrong about everything, unlike you geniuses” routine.
Did I miss anything?
@CB:
Apart from slavey not getting around to the geniuses thing before flouncing, and this thread actually turning into a meaningful discussion, that’s about right. 😛
Molly Ren: I’m reminded of something that Pecunium said earlier, about there being a “bright line” dividing age of consent from non-consent because it was a complicated issue, and by having a clear line it made it more fair? (Sorry if that’s a mis-quote, I don’t want to go back through all the comments again! o.O) Like, can you even make a law that would be enforced strictly on the basis of the maturity of a person?
What a bright line gives us is a way to be impartial. The idea is, basically, that by “x” age all the people will be mature enought to handle whatever it is. Yes, there will be those who could have done “x” sooner, but the difficuties in implementing (and the potential for abuse) a case by case determination for everyone is unworkable.
And we have some exemptions (“emancipated minors”), wherein some (or all) of the aspects of adulthood are granted to those minors who can show both a need, and a cause. Oddly (though it may have changed since I last looked) in Calif. a female who marries below the age of consent (18… no 16 year olds for NWO in the Golden State) is automatically emancipated, but the reverse isn’t true for men. This strike me as unfair.
Bee wrote, “I guess my main concern with getting rid of legal distinctions between children and adults is that I feel like it could lead to parents not being responsible for their children’s well-being at a lowered age. And I don’t see why we’re forever wanting to turn back the clock in this country, to revisit things that we’ve already seen are hugely problematic, such as low graduation rates and child endangerment.”
This may be one of those instances when I end the convo thinking “Well, I thought the laws could be better until I remembered why they were there in the first place.” ><
Ami, I think a distinction probably needs to be made between maturity and useful life skills? (I take full responsibility for muddling the issue.)