Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
“@Bee, that age gap may have been too much for you but not for everyone. A man goes to jail if he disagrees. For a man it’s statutory rape, for a woman it’s sexual misconduct.”
No, that’s true. A zillion apologies if anyone thought I was saying that no one who is 30 should ever date anyone who is 50, lest exposure to turkeyneck ensue. I was only relating my own experience, and kind of marveling at your idea that a 17-year-old girl may be a good lovematch for 50-year-old you.
As to the law being different for male child molesters and female child molesters, or men being sent to jail for mere disagreement, I can say only that you are bullshit. I think we’ve already been over why this is, but let me know if you need a reminder.
Wow, I go to get a pedicure*, and Slavey’s accusing me of spreading hatred and clutching his pearls over the word “fuck.”
Well, Slavey, I don’t hate men. I don’t hate MRAs, even. I pity them.
*Not really, but that’s all he thinks we do.
Why are you so coy about your age, NWO?
I’m 40. Now you tell yours.
Pop quiz: What is the age of consent?&dag;
NWO’s examples are, in the main, false because there are places (and quite a few) in the US where the age of consent is not higher than 16. Some of those are, “window of consent” (for want of a better term) where the bright line isn’t quite so bright, if the participants are in a given age range.
Hawai’i only recently raised the age of consent to 16, from 14.
So, in most of the US, irrespective of the ability to love (which isn’t what we are talking about, age of consent it the legal privilege of being able to fuck with any other person who is of the age of consent; love has nothing to do with it), a 30 year old can have sex with a 16 year old.
There are 11 states which are 18 (well, 10, plus DC). There are 7 which are at 17. That leaves 25 which are at 16. The majority of states have an age gap provision, and a significant number have a legal defense of “mistaken age”.
Which makes the whole thing a bit creepier… this isn’t saying, “18 is a poor cutoff” but 16 and 17 are.
None of this, perforce, takes into account the experiential gap which means someone who is in their 30s has a much easier time of convincing someone in their teens to have sex.
Since the author of that screed also thinks, “Game is good” we can presume (contra NWO) that love isn’t in the equation, it’s all about “fuck-em and forget-em”. I’ll wager he was also a fan of “paper abortions”.
&dag;Age of consent chart, by state, with age gap and mistaken age lists
@Molly Ren … “Hey, NWO, what’s the difference between love, sex, and rape?”
According to feminist doctrine, nothing.
Bee … “As to the law being different for male child molesters and female child molesters, or men being sent to jail for mere disagreement, I can say only that you are bullshit. I think we’ve already been over why this is, but let me know if you need a reminder.”
Yea you’re right, what wasssss I thinking. The law is exactly the same for men and women.
“@Molly Ren … ‘Hey, NWO, what’s the difference between love, sex, and rape?’
“According to feminist doctrine, nothing.”
I was asking what YOU thought of those terms, Slavey.
Hey Pecunium, I found a slightly different chart: http://www.webistry.net/jan/consent.html
But the gist was/is the same. So, again, NWO: what’s the problem? In most states you will absolutely not go to jail for having a consensual sexual relationship with a 17 year old.
How, exactly, is feminism keeping you from doing so?
I mean, you already seem to think love = sex, Slavey.
The laws are the same; the application sometimes differs.
And for the record , I disapprove.
Age of consent laws exist and when they are broken by women with young teenage boys I believe that it is a miscarriage of justice for the woman in question to receive a lighter sentence than a man would get for the same offense. I also think it’s fucking absurd that if a woman has sex with a 14 year old boy and gets pregnant, he will then be on the hook for child support.
Just like Romeo and Juliet clauses allowed mitigation in regards to age of consent, I think states need to take a serious look at the laws which would hold a 14 year old accountable for children produced as the result of a sexual relationship with a grown woman and make some adjustments.
That’s bullshit.
@Pecunium … “None of this, perforce, takes into account the experiential gap which means someone who is in their 30s has a much easier time of convincing someone in their teens to have sex.”
Would this be that power dynamic thingy again you’ve been indoctrinated to accept?
Ya know pre 100 years or so ago it was a given that men normally married women younger than themselves, by quite a few years. It musta been the patriarchal power and control wheel in it’s early stages.
NWO, feminism is not stopping you from pursuing romantic relationships with 17 year olds.
Wow…. came back from the meet up (which went great! :3 ) and 4 pages of NWO (the actual NWO this time, cuz there were 3 trolls! ) vs um… D-Generation XX? :3
The interesting part about this whole thing is that I actually have no real strong opinions about age of consent laws except that I think our society rly needs to have an honest discussion about consent and age restriction laws (and by consent I dun mean just sex, I mean at what age can you give informed consent about your body and identity… abortion, medication, transition, name change, tattoos, piercings, hair removal, cosmestic surgery, smoking, drinking, etc)… I just feel that sometimes, cuz the ppl who are argue are like some of the trolls here and the OP, who think it’s all about them, and all about letting men have the youngest girls (and when did love suddenly enter into it? xD w/ all the talk of women being unable to love, just wanting reproduction, game, female hindbrains wanting sex, PUA, why can’t men just get sex from women, having sex with old women are yuck, saggy loose vaginas, judging Ozy’s looks and age, etc etc… suddenly it’s all about emotions and pure love, and this has nothing to do w/ wanting to have sex with a young body at ALL? xD ) that it becomes this big fight where it’s “well they can’t consent to other things at 16!” or “they can’t sign contracts” b/c you’re trying to beat back ppl who seem to think age of consent/maturity laws are all about their ability to have sex w/ young girls (and oddly, usually there are exceptions meant to protect boys, like the OP going all weaselly about “well women never mature past puberty…” or the laws that keep the age of consent for sodomy at 18 or ban it all together)
And I get those feelings : But to me, the bigger thing is about people and their rights, and right to make their own decisions, and give informed consent to things that might lead to bad ends, or that people disapprove of or worry that they don’t know what they are doing, or that they are deemed legally unable to handle. And I get that there might v well be different ages for different things, but I think a lot of the time, we’re working from a base that the laws we have aren’t arbitrary but the default, and we need to argue good reasons why to lower them, when maybe we should just start from “okay what SHOULD be the age for each thing”. :] And if somebody is mature enough to make some decisions relating to their body, then should they be able to make other ones? And why not if not?
This isn’t trolling… it rly is something I find fascinating and also I think IMPORTANT, b/c I think as a society, we do need to figure this stuff out, b/c it’s not as simple as just “the pervs want young girls, so we have to say no” when holding the firm line of “no they are too immature to consent to nething w/ their bodies” might be rly unfair and taking away the right of people to make choices relating to their lives, bodies and what they put in them, or etc… (tattoos, piercings, etc… are the milder ones… sexuality, transition, surgery, abortion, etc.. are the bigger scarier ones).. how old you have to be to consent to porn, and if taking naked pictures of yourself and sending them out is the same as being able to consent to go into the porn industry and sign a contract w/ a company.. etc etc
But I feel like it’s rly impossible to have a discussion when you’ve got ppl who aren’t seeing this as “how old until we believe human beings are able to make their own choices, control their own bodies, etc” and see it all about them and their right to have sex w/ nebody they want to (kinda like if rather than it be about whether a 16 y/o should be able to consent to MMA, or playing hockey, if their parents won’t let them, it’s about some guy who says “I RLY WANT TO BE ABLE TO PUT A SIXTEEN Y/O IN A LEG LOCK, WHY CAN’T I!?” ) I feel like this isn’t about what we as ppl who are all over 18 (and in many cases 21) want, it should be about what rights human beings have and when they should have them, and why. Ppl make decisions we don’t like or think they haven’t thought thru all the time, the question is when can we say “you’re too immature, and that’s why you don’t know” and when it’s “i don’t agree w/ it and I dun think you know what you’re doing, but it’s your body and your life”? (in SOME cases, even as an adult, our society and our laws still say we can’t do what we want w/ our own bodies and that wanting it proves that we’re not mentally stable enuf to know that’s what we want)
I rly hope ppl dun think that this is trolling, or I’m asking dishonest questions that I alrdy have a strong opinion on or will play devil’s advocate or nething -_-;;; In fact, when I say we as a society need to have a discussion, I dun even mean HERE. I mean IRL, we rly do need to decide when ppl can consent to what and what distinctions there are and why these distinctions exist, and etc etc… cuz this does affect a lot of young ppl, and it’s not about older ppl and what older ppl want to do w/ them (sex, possible exploitation) or think their lives should be (contracts) or their choices (contraception) or who they are (transition) … it should be about when people are able to make choices for themselves, and that we believe they can give informed consent about their bodies, their identity and their lives. :]
@Nobinayamu…You can pay all the lip service you want, it means zilcho. Thats feminist jurisprudence hard at work. Even a little boy is held accountable for a grown womans actions.
If you read Slavey’s comments in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons they’re a lot funnier.
@NWO:
Pre 100 years ago, it was common practice to employ children in factories where they worked long hours with little pay at great risk of injury. That must be perfectly fine too. Damn you modern day feminists to refuse to employ a willing, very mature 12-year old to stick his/her fingers into moving machinery to remove clogs.
Well there ya go Kirbywarp, good analogy.
@Graham:
“The nineteen hundreds. Best. Time. Ever.”
@NWO:
Please say you’re joking. Please.
NWO, I see that you can still read my posts. What’s stopping you from pursuing a relationship with a 17 year old? ‘Cause it sure ain’t feminism.
Now, provide evidence that the age of consent laws were created and set in place by feminists. As far as I can tell age of consent laws have been on the books since well before the 20th century.
As for paying lip service, since I am not a political figure and have no say in writing legislation, stating my opinions strongly and consistently is about all I can do at the moment. As I have no interest in pursuing a career in politics, I’ll have to research what the laws are in my city and maybe start a petition if warranted.
What will you do about it? Your usual nothing?
NWO, in all but 7 states in the U.S. there is nothing preventing you from pursuing a romantic relationship with a 17 year old.
Well, nothing apart from the fact that most 17 year old girls want nothing to do with middle-aged losers. But I guess that counts as ‘feminism?’
“The laws are the same; the application sometimes differs.”
Well, sure. I was taking issue with Subby’s contention that there is a statute out there that gives different names to the same act, depending on the sex of the offender.
“And for the record , I disapprove.”
Yeah, me too. I’ve said it a buncha times. I kind of feel like a broken record sometimes, with the amount of handholding and reassurance MRAs require feminists to give before they’ll kind of admit that maybe not all feminists hate all men all the time.
NWO: (not that you are willing to admit you are reading me now) Here’s a question for you.
If the charts Dave referred you too are wrong (what with being longitudinal studies of populations, and all) Where are you getting the data to support your claims for entire populations (as opposed to single persons). After all, Benjamin Jonson (son of Ben Jonson, the playwright poet) died at age 5. Hamnet (son of Shakespeare…same timeframe as Ben Jonson) died at age 11. Shakespeare died in his fifties. Thomas Nashe was in his middle thirties. All of them lived in the same time period, so I guess in Elizabethan times people died young.
That, or your inummeracy, and pigheaded refusal to admit you have a problem with basic arithmetic is making you look like a fool, again.
Or, we could take option B… You know the facts, and are choosing to lie.
SallyStrange: The logical outcome of David’s views is the enslavement of all women.
You don’t need to extrapolate. He has said he thinks women should be either killed off, or enslaved. He makes no bones about it. Go look at the comments he left in children of Dudes
So that if ppl DO say nething, it doesn’t seem like my responses are prepared or meant to troll them -_-;; like if somebody said something and I said “but what about if a 16 y/o had a 30 y/o or 50 y/o psychiatrist who supported them in wanting to take hormone blockers? I’m sure ppl who think transition is disgusting would say that the adult is manipulating the child and using their depression/desires/immaturity/etc to coerce them…” I dun want ppl to think that’s a dishonest response that I’m like “BUT WHAT IF BUT WHAT IF!?”
So I’m putting that out now. As not just a what if, but something that does happen IRL all the time. : (or the REVERSE, in the case of ppl like Dr. Zucker at CAMH who will convince young ppl NOT to transition) Or on abortion? (and whether a 16 y/o CAN get an abortion in practical terms b/c the s- our society shouldn’t be throwing at them, but does, isn’t the same as whether we think thye legally can decide for themselves what to do w/ their bodies 😐 )
I’m not saying btw “I think that your arguments for an 18 y/o age of consent for sex means that you support this” but again, this IS something that’s rly complex and also important to me, (b/c body autonomy, and the rights of human beings to decide their own bodies and personal choices (as long as it doesn’t assault others rights to their own bodies, etc) is one of the basic things I believe in) and I want to hear what ppl have to say about it, cuz I honestly, don’t have any strong idea of where the “line” legally should be drawn. (and cards on the table, yus I do question 18, NOT b/c I think 18 is necessarily too high, I just don’t see it as the necessary starting place default where ppl have to prove why things shouldn’t be that high “to be safe” since it’s not our lives, it’s the lives of younger ppl, I dun think it’s fair to them just set everything at an arbitrary number for our own comfort)
Nobinayamu, If I had stated the same thing, in fact I may copy and paste; using it at a later date. This same crew wil mock and vilify me. The fly off on tangents the span the range of all life’s experience.
How do I know this? Becuase I’ve said pretty much the same in the past. The responses were always the same. You don’t think women get punished for anything. You can’t understand your white male privilege. You think the law lets women do what ever they want. Waaa, Waaa, Waaaa.
Half the time I think all of you simple copy and paste your power dynamic arguement from one post to the next. Everytime it’s always the same power dynamic privilege nonsense. Toss in a cis something or other, slide in ableism with a touch of kyriarchy for seasoning, let simmer and you’re golden.