As we’ve seen again and again on this blog, misogynists love to talk about how much better men are than women when it comes to things like math, logic, and scientific thinking generally. Unfortunately, their posts and comments online – filled with breathtaking failures of logic, absurd unsourced assertions and magical thinking — do not seem to bear out this hypothesis. I would compare the scientific thinking of most manosphere misogynists with that of the creationists, but frankly that would be insulting to creationists.
A case in point: a graph – provenance unknown – posted in a recent MGTOWforums discussion of marriage. The standard line amongst the lady haters is that marriage is on the way out , because men are “waking up” to the evils of marriage in an allegedly feminist state and deciding to, well, go their own way. The reality: while the marriage rate has been falling fairly steadily for the last quarter-century or so, for a variety of reasons, most people do marry at some point in their lives; it would be silly to assume that a trend over the course of several decades heralds the death of a social institution that has lasted (and has had many previous ups and downs) for millennia.
Of course, that’s not the way the MGTOWers in question see it. Their proof that marriage is doomed – doomed, I say – lies in this little graph which charts with mathematical precision the exact date range within which marriage will vanish forever from this good earth:
Now, there are many problems with this little graph. For one thing, what happens AFTER the projected marriage rate goes to zero? Does the marriage rate bounce like a rubber ball back into the positive realm? Or does it go below zero, with unmarried couples divorcing one another – just in case?
Second, this chart is based on a tiny number of data points – a mere 25 year sliver of the millennia-long history of divorce. If you go back a mere century and a half – see the chart below, taken from a paper you can find here — you’ll see that the marriage rate doesn’t conform to any neat mathematical formula; it jumps up and down, affected not only by slow-moving cultural changes but by events in the real world – look at the gigantic spike in marriage after World War II.
But the main issue here is that there is simply no way you can come up with a neat equation to predict the future of marriage because THE WORLD DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. History isn’t math. It cannot be predicted in advance, and any attempt to do so — especially one based on a tiny sliver of data — is doomed to failure. (Well, certain aspects of reality can be predicted — like when Halley’s comet will next return (assuming it’s not eaten by a giant space monster we haven’t discovered yet). Orbits can be calculated with mathematical precision; social trends cannot.)
To illustrate the dangers of extrapolation, let’s consider the little chart below, prepared by a helpful assistant (who happens to have access to a scanner). The chart provides some interesting data on the age of a hypothetical cat named “Fluffy” and her projected life expectancy. As you can see, Fluffy was hypothetically born in 2001, making her ten years old today, with her age increasing by one every year. (Just pretend that the numbers line up properly; my assistant, despite her many other charms, is not big on precision, and may have been drunk when she prepared this chart.) Based on this data (which show Fluffy’s age increasing by one every year), we could project that by the time the next century rolls around our dear little cat will be 99 years old.
If projecting the future were as easy as drawing little lines on graphs, the world would be a much simpler, and much less interesting, place to live. Most of us realize this. MRAs and MGTOWers, not so much.
I did lay out my worldview Ami, No Government. Pretty simple really. Do you hate freedom so much?
Damn, Kirby, you make NWOSlave sound consistent! :O I was beginning to feel like Ahab…
NWO:
Without government, marriage does not exist.
*sits back and waits for logic loop meltdown*
No Government means that strong people can beat up weak people with no consequences. I’m against that.
So you’re an anarchist, Slavey? An anarchist who supports marriage? o.O
But I alrdy know the answer of what he believes and how he’s gonna interpret nething I say regardless of what he means… cuz he doesn’t consider focusing purely on heterosexual narratives (every fairytale, disney movies, etc ) to be “teaching kids” what’s normal xD It’s just all hopscotch…. xD But if you had like a fairytale where a princess rescues another princess and they marry, that’d be OMG TEH GAY AGENDA!!!!!! xD
There’s no such thing as no government when people get in groups of more than… well, more than one, honestly. If my boyfriend and I agree to have pasta for dinner, what we are doing is a very small and petty act of government.
Grammar nazi, if the State is teaching social values, (which they are). Isn’t that an infringement on a persons right to formulate their own opinion? Aren’t you being taught what must be considered a religion, whatever the State deems is moral?
I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the idea that the State teaches people to be gay. Where the fuck are all the lesbian movies??? We’ve been showing the same 5 over and over for ages!
NWO:
Aren’t you being educated by the state on what happened in the history of the world, how chemicals react, and how electricity works? Don’t you feel that everyone should formulate their own opinion on the facts of the world?
Oh wait… Yes you do…
Why does marraige not exist without the State, kirbywarp? Surely you know pre 1913 the State had nothing to do with marriage.
Do you hate freedom so much?
XDDD
That sounds a little familiar xD
I dunno, I’m not the one who constantly whines about what ppl are doing w/ their own lives, w/ other consenting adults, w/ their own bodes…
you sound like you hate freedom
hence why Kirby keeps asking you to elaborate on how you plan to enforce your social worldview xD
and my question was how do you think the world would look like with no state? you won’t elaborate xD
@Molly Ren:
Everytime a little boy asks his teacher if its okay to like another little boy, and the teacher doesn’t say “No, that is a very dirty thought and you are a terrible child for even thinking of such a thing. You will go to hell and your mother will cry over your grave if you even THINK about that again…” then he’s being taught to be gay.
Chemical composition and electricity aren’t social values Kirby. The three Rs will be just fine. The State has no right to dictate morals, yet they do.
“Surely you know pre 1913 the State had nothing to do with marriage.”
All these documents are fake.
@NWO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage
With no entity to enforce a contract between two people, marriage (a contract) can not be enforced, and therefore cannot exist. Such an entity must, by necessity, be “the state.” (in simplistic terms)
I apparently can’t make this clear enough. The State has no right to dictate any morals at all in school. Do any of you agree with that?
@NWO just so we’re clear, you believe that kids are being taught to be gay in schools? xD
The involvement of the state is the entire difference between a marriage (in which people can own shared property, are treated as spouses in estate arrangements, can make medical decisions for each other, can be covered under each other’s insurance, can file taxes jointly, etc.) and two people who just live together. Without government sanction, “marriage” is entirely meaningless and I really can marry a duck if I feel like it.
I can marry all the ducks. Every duck in the world is now my spouse. Since I didn’t say “government-sanctioned spouse,” there’s really no telling me this isn’t true.
Also, I don’t think you can run a school without dictating morals. I mean, if a kid runs up and hits the teacher in the gut, is the teacher supposed to avoid wincing, for fear that this might discourage the kid from gut-hitting, which it is not the state’s place to judge?
@NWO what do you consider “dictating morals” I’m curious? Cuz I suspect that there are bunch of normative behaviours and worldviews you don’t think are being dictated that are but b/c they’re “normal” you just see it as hopscotch xD
Eh… I don’t know. o.o
I would consider stuff like “don’t bite your tablemates” something kids should be taught at home AND have it reinforced in kindergarden. That’s moral, right?
I think public schools aren’t allowed to enforce a specific *religion*. I don’t think it gets as specific as “no morals at all”.
Someone help me out?
@NWO:
So, as opposed to physical facts about the universe, you are making the case that social values are entirely subjective? You know, like how wrong murder, rape, and divorce are? I fail to see where you could go with this…
The thing is we aren’t advocating one single value for every social dilemma ever faced. We want people to be able to make up their own minds about things (like abortion and marriage and sex and so on), while enforcing others (like murder). You seem to want to make up your own mind about everything, yet you refuse to accept that other people should make up their own minds about abortion or marriage or sex. So… which is it? Do you want freedom, a mix, or subjection?
Slavey wants to be King! 😀 It all makes sense now!
@Molly:
NWO is stuck in an all or nothing. The state does everything, or it does nothing. Everything is up to the individual, or nothing is. But of course he contradicts that by saying things like abortion, murder, and pedophilia are wrong (and I suppose he would want this taught and enforced). You can grasp nuance, he cannot.