Categories
idiocy marriage strike men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny

Fun with charts, or why MGTOWers don't understand marriage trends

As we’ve seen again and again on this blog, misogynists love to talk about how much better men are than women when it comes to things like math, logic, and scientific thinking generally. Unfortunately, their posts and comments online – filled with breathtaking failures of logic, absurd unsourced assertions and magical thinking — do not seem to bear out this hypothesis.  I would compare the scientific thinking of most manosphere misogynists with that of the creationists, but frankly that would be insulting to creationists.

A case in point: a graph – provenance unknown – posted in a recent MGTOWforums discussion of marriage. The standard line amongst the lady haters is that marriage is on the way out , because men are “waking up” to the evils of marriage in an allegedly feminist state and deciding to, well, go their own way. The reality: while the marriage rate has been falling fairly steadily for the last quarter-century or so, for a variety of reasons, most people do marry at some point in their lives; it would be silly to assume that a trend over the course of several decades heralds the death of a social institution that has lasted (and has had many previous ups and downs) for millennia.

Of course, that’s not the way the MGTOWers in question see it. Their proof that marriage is doomed – doomed, I say – lies in this little graph which charts with mathematical precision the exact date range within which marriage will vanish forever from this good earth:

That's not right.

Now, there are many problems with this little graph. For one thing, what happens AFTER the projected marriage rate goes to zero? Does the marriage rate bounce like a rubber ball back into the positive realm? Or does it go below zero, with unmarried couples divorcing one another – just in case?

Second, this chart is based on a tiny number of data points – a mere 25 year sliver of the millennia-long history of divorce. If you go back a mere century and a half – see the chart below, taken from a paper you can find here — you’ll see that the marriage rate doesn’t conform to any neat mathematical formula; it jumps up and down, affected not only by slow-moving cultural changes but by events in the real world – look at the gigantic spike in marriage after World War II.

But the main issue here is that there is simply no way you can come up with a neat equation to predict the future of marriage because THE WORLD DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. History isn’t math. It cannot be predicted in advance, and any attempt to do so — especially one based on a tiny sliver of data — is doomed to failure. (Well, certain aspects of reality can be predicted — like when Halley’s comet will next return (assuming it’s not eaten by a giant space monster we haven’t discovered yet). Orbits can be calculated with mathematical precision; social trends cannot.)

To illustrate the dangers of extrapolation, let’s consider the little chart below, prepared by a helpful assistant (who happens to have access to a scanner). The chart provides some interesting data on the age of a hypothetical cat named “Fluffy” and her projected life expectancy. As you can see, Fluffy was hypothetically born in 2001, making her ten years old today, with her age increasing by one every year. (Just pretend that the numbers line up properly; my assistant, despite her many other charms, is not big on precision, and may have been drunk when she prepared this chart.) Based on this data (which show Fluffy’s age increasing by one every year), we could project that by the time the next century rolls around our dear little cat will be 99 years old.

If projecting the future were as easy as drawing little lines on graphs, the world would be a much simpler, and much less interesting, place to live. Most of us realize this. MRAs and MGTOWers, not so much.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

420 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Quackers
Quackers
10 years ago

I hope this isn’t derailing but I wanted to throw this idea out here…sorry if its TLDR

#23922 of MRA hypocrisy:

MRAs and MGTOWs especially flounce around declaring how marriage is bad for men, they aren’t getting married so us bitches better watch out (OOOoOOOoooh whatever will I DO? a misogynist wont marry me?! *faints daintily*)

MRAs and MGTOWs also like to complain that feminism destroyed marriage and its goal is to abolish it completely.

Shouldn’t MRAs and MGTOWs be happy then? they think marriage is a death trap so they should be thankful for these supposed feminists trying to abolish marriage.

Oh but I forgot one teeny think. Marriage seems to be okay for them so long as wifey keeps her pretty little mouth shut, doesn’t gain 1lb of weight, and stays barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen popping out babbys.

No thank you.

In my personal opinion, and this is just what it is, opinion. I think marriage is outdated and useless in this day and age. Marriage was done in the past because women barely had rights. She couldn’t work, own land, vote, get higher education (or any education) and discouraged from entering the public. She needed a man to care for her.

Nowadays, at least in North America and most 1st world coutries, she does not. That’s why marriage is largely useless (though there are benifits too but I personally dont think they are worth it) That’s one of the few issues I very very SLIGHTLY agree with the MRAs. *feels so dirty for saying that* Society needs to come up with a different social structure that fits our current situation.

Now watch MRAs shriek at me for wanting to get rid of marriage. Let me remind them though that ITS WHAT YOU WANT ANYWAY. You want to be free of us bitches and I’m all for it.

But again, to really make this work out is that pay gap issue needs to be resolved 100% possibly by raising the wages and status of female oriented professions on equal par to mens. That or being more open to including women into all sorts of jobs from construction work to freaking president. Women will be able to support themselves even more, and more men might pursue those once female oriented jobs too. (Assuming this will happen anyway)

So yea, just my 0.02. I doubt this will happen anytime soon, nor do I wish to force it on anyone. I dont look down on those that are married, and I agree that marriage just works for some people. Others not so much. I dont even know if it would work, and there are many factors into play that I’ve probably left out. It’s just a thought and I’ll just plan my life as I see fit, and that probably means choosing not to get married. I just dont see a point in it. Have a feeling though that the older I get, the more I’ll questioned by others about it too.

Quackers
Quackers
10 years ago

*sorry, that should say (or any education in SOME cases)

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

I agree Quakers

Unless you have some sort of religious reason or are doing it to appease the in-laws I have no idea why anyone would wish to go through with an outdated ceremony except if you can make more money then you spend via gifts.

My wife and I got married alone overseas because as second marriages our parents were not taking us as serious life partners. Our children’s partners are part of our family without ceremony.

Skyal
Skyal
10 years ago

Kave, we got married for immigration reasons. I never imagined myself married and even after 15 years, I’m not real sure I like it. I’d have been just as happy without the (extremely sad & pathetic) civil ceremony.

Developers! Developers! Developers!
Developers! Developers! Developers!
10 years ago

Re: Quackers “#23922 of MRA hypocrisy”

Isn’t that a bit like saying “these environmentalists over here oppose nuclear power, and those ones over there support nuclear power, therefore all environmentalists are hypocrites” ?

You would never the suggestion to should do away with marriage from the traditionalists and you would never get the garden variety misogynists to endorse marriage. About the only thing they agree on with regards to this issue is some level of blaming feminism. But you will notice that it’s usually not the same people who have both viewpoints.

Shaenon
10 years ago

Getting way, way back to page 1, because this is still baffling me…

Hellkell called it a “partnership.” We’ll call a man partner “A” and a woman partner “B” and a child asset “C” Well at anytime partner “B” can disolve the parnership and take asset “C” plus at least half of the holdings. Partner “B” can also demand payment from partner “A” for asset “C” while denying access to asset “C” backed by the guns of the State.

Pretty much anyone can see being partner “A” is a really bad deal.

Wait, so A and B both have the right to dissolve the marriage, and if they leave they each get half of “the holdings.” How is this “a really bad deal” for A and not B? They’re getting the same thing!

Okay, okay, in your scenario B also gets custody of their child. I guess that could be seen as a bonus if you like raising kids. But if A’s going around referring to his kid as a “child asset,” I definitely wouldn’t trust him with custody.

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

Also, in another episode of NWOslave is Wrong on the Internet; divorce, custody, child support and alimony don’t work the way he thinks they do.

Something like 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman filing, and women tend to end up with primary custody. This, to a brain like Slavey’s, indicates a conspiracy – because in Slavey’s world, everything is a conspiracy.

I’m not sure why women tend to file for divorce more often than men, maybe because women are less willing to live in an unsatisfying or only partly satisfying marriage? Maybe more women are leaving abusive partners? I have no idea. As to custody, though, women still assume the primary caregiver role while married, and most judges see no reason to interrupt that during a divorce. If you compare the stats of men who are stay-at-home-dads or primary caregivers with the stats of men who are awarded primary custody, they’re roughly even.

This is just another example of misogyny in action, though – if she files for divorce, she’s a golddigging harpy only out for alimony and child support; if he files for divorce, he’s glad to be rid of a golddigging harpy.

Quackers
Quackers
10 years ago

Kave-

*facepalms* totally forgot about religion. Yep. Disolvement of marriage is not happening for a looooong time. But yea, even with that I agree that there are reasons for why its still relevant. It also sucks that some people feel pressured into it. One should only marry if they truly want to and are ready for it. Maybe that’s why there are so many divorces…because men and women just feel like its something you HAVE to do. It’s one of the things that defines adulthood, therefore you go along with it without really examining the reasons why you actually want it.

Developers!-

True. If that’s the case then, I understand the traditionalist, pro-marriage MRAs blaming feminism for ruining marriage/family- which to them usually means husband is dominant, wife is submissive. However it still doesn’t make sense that the anti-marriage MRAs be outraged at feminists for supposedly destroying marriage. Shouldn’t they actually be supportive of them, or at least agree with what they’re doing? They’re after the same goal after all, albeit for very different reasons. With marriage completely gone women wont have the legal power to be mooching child support off of them anymore

Everything I’ve read on MRA sites though, overall is pretty anti-marriage. Or at least anti-marriage in western countries. Whether they hated it from the get-go or hate what it has become (thanks to those dang western women who just cant shut up and obey their husbands) either way they are against it, so why complain at its supposed fall? Its not relevant to them since they don’t believe it anyway and/or have opted out of it. Just one more BS excuse to blame stuff on feminism I guess.

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

However it still doesn’t make sense that the anti-marriage MRAs be outraged at feminists for supposedly destroying marriage.

Here, I’m sure that Nightstorm 2516 could explain it to you:

“I believe marriage is dropping because marriage 1.0 was eraticated.. where the man had control, the woman, little power at all.. where as overtime, feminists merged in new laws like a frog in a pot of water.. and slowly turned up the heat.

Before people knew it, we had marriage 2.0 and people who married in 1.0 automatically got a upgrade to 2.0.”

Yes, all the dynamics of human interaction can be easily explained not only in Greek alphabetic terms, but in terms of version numbers. Why necessarily a frog in a pot of water I’m not so sure about. But I digress…

Those particular MRAs aren’t necessarily “anti-marriage”, they are “anti-marriage 2.0” and are outraged at feminists for destroying “marriage 1.0” (the only true type of marriage, I’m sure).

However, yes, there are anti-marriage MRAs who are also against “marriage 1.0”, because the man having control and the woman little power at all was for the absolute benefit of the woman at the expense of the man. Either way you cut it, “marriage 1.0” or “marriage 2.0”, it’s the li’l woman who benefits completely, at the expense of the man. Now, why those particular anti-marriage MRAs would complain about the decline of marriage rates, I don’t know, but it might it might be summed up by your last sentence, “Just one more BS excuse to blame stuff on feminism I guess.”

dan
dan
10 years ago

Blimey,

What a dozey lot you are…

NWOS asked us to imagine a world with no government – Mars, Venus, Mercury all seem to fit the bill quite nicely 😉 .

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

Now, I know I’m late to this portion of the comments, but…..

If you lived in China the State taught them they had the legal right to have only one child. They accepted their State indoctrination.

It wasn’t a State indoctrination and certainly wan’t something that the State “taught”. It was a policy implemented (and not ALL families were affected by this policy) to curb overpopulation, particularly in urban areas.

If you want to consider the morality issues of the one-child policy, then consider what happened when that one child was female.

tofu nutloaf
tofu nutloaf
10 years ago

Slavey, last night you said “tell me I’m wrong.”

Ok, you’re wrong. Completely, totally, and utterly wrong. Feel better now?

Anyway, on to other things. I personally really like being married. I like it so much, I want to extend the right to all consenting adults who want to get hitched. We should stop putting pressure on people to get married. It isn’t for everyone, and there isn’t anything wrong with the people who are disinterested in it. If we do that, we may well see a drop in the divorce rate eventually. I frankly don’t give a rat’s ass about the divorce rate, except that I want people to be happy in their lives. but it sure as hell isn’t tearing society apart.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

I looked at the thread over on the MGTOW forum, and indeed it seems that the OP and most commenters actually approve of the dropping marriage rate, so painting them as being against it is a bit of a straw man.

Also, Child Asset C is my real name. True story.

Spearhafoc
10 years ago

By “interrobang”, I meant the symbol (‽). I wish that was more popular. It’s much more elegant than (?!) or (!?).

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

I just have to say of all the frankly insane things our trolls have said for some reason this disturbs me the most.

No Idiot. Most Chinese living in China live within the law. They don’t accept it, they live with it. I’m a little angry today and you are an idiot.

darksidecat
darksidecat
10 years ago

@NWO, seriously does your internet not have the google? Deficit, defined http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit

Also, you do understand that courts don’t write statutes, right? I know the whole “three branches of government” thing is advanced civics for you, but legislatures legislate. The drug war is a social policy failure, not a courts failure. People being sent to jail for drugs crimes are not disproportionately falsely convicted-they generally actually had the drugs, they broke the law the legislature wrote. The courts did not make those laws, they just applied them. Shit, I even went as far as to point out that I thought common law criminal law was a really bad idea, which makes this objection extra silly (also, common law crimes are rare to nonexistant in the US). Also, the area where the courts enforcement of drug laws falls short is one that I specifically said the courts were less adept at eliminating-that of widespread systematic bias-which would encompas the issues of disproportionate results across race and class. I pointed out that the courts do a good job of controlling for intimate interpersonal grudges, which I think they do. You have not convinced me that judges target individuals for drugs charges based on personal grudges against those specific individuals. Do you really think it is a common problem that a judge goes “you know, I really just hate Steve, as a person, so I am going to send him and only him to jail for heroin possession”? But things like that are problems in small communal settings with less defined rules and enforcement systems.

(also, see point number 4 of my earlier post-the US’s asinine drug policy is unique to the US, not a feature of all governments)

I also think you are over anthropomorphizing the state and the government, NWO. It is not some sort of self contained organism, it is a collection of people and certain social fictions. While it could be the case that certain governments place disproportionate power in the hands of a specific group or class, the expansion of power would still be done in a way that serves the interests of that group or class, not expansion for expansion’s sake. Generally, people argue for governmental expansion because they want the government to fullfill certain functions and expansion is seen as necessary for that, not because they just randomly like having bigger governments.

Fun side note on the middle ages, state marriage, and gay marriage-there actually was a court ruling in Florence in the middle ages where the city of Florence refused to delegitimize the marriage of two men on the grounds that it was none of the city’s business to say who could and couldn’t get married (the men still had to pay their sodomy fines, however). Florence was notorious as a hotbed of sodomy in the middle ages, to the point where the phrase “getting Florenced” was a slang term for getting fucked in the ass. If you included history in your list of important subjects to know, NWO, you might find out that people got up to all kinds of sexual stuff with or without state marriages.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

I have a need to vent today and write what I’m thinking in a space that no one knows who I am.

I lost a child to cancer many years ago. I have this amazing 25 year old daughter whose lived with radioactive iodine resistant thyroid cancer since she was 16. She’s had two operations to remove her thyroid and cancerous lymph nodes in her neck, yesterday we found out that it might be time for her to have a third. She’d been stable for 4 years but she’s not anymore.

My daughter has a livid scar in a c shape from ear to ear. When strangers ask her about her scars her favorite answer is “heck of a fight but you should see the other guy”.

She has always maintained a strict holistic diet except for in the past year, so she’s beating herself up for becoming complacent.

I need to say this. Fuck you MRAL with your petty problems. Fuck you NWO with your petty grievances. My daughter is our most brilliant child, I do believe if we lost her there would be a good chance of my wife taking her own life. My wife doesn’t cry but her eyes again are just vacant.

Leroy Brown
Leroy Brown
10 years ago

By “interrobang”, I meant the symbol (‽). I wish that was more popular. It’s much more elegant than (?!) or (!?).

Elitist. I maintain my admiration for the platonic interrobang, the expression of interrobang-ness, regardless of its form. 😉

Leroy Brown
Leroy Brown
10 years ago

And…now I look like an asshole, being so flip following that. I’m so sorry, Kave, for you and your family. My thoughts with you, and your wife and daughter.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Kave, I’m so sorry. My prayers to you and your family.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

When she was 8 her pet rat died. She cried but then she told us she wanted to know why, and asked if she could dissect him. I can’t remember her conclusions but they made sense. It wasn’t just her rat, give her a dead animal and she wanted to dissect.

We always thought she would be a surgeon, from her earliest years it was her calling. Cancer changed her mind and she’s now a dietician. It’s a eating right to avoid going under the knife thing.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

Both my wife and kid refuse to even discuss it. It’s something to be dealt with but not thought of. When she was first diagnosed kid caught my wife crying. We are a humanist/atheist/capitalist family. My kid said “I’m the one with cancer if I don’t cry you have no right to”.

I’m sorry to make this thread about me but thank you for letting me get it out. I keep waiting for one of them to show some signs of grief but they don’t except in the eyes.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

. Can a MRA show up now so I can take my frustrations out? I took the day off., wife didn’t she’s changing the world for the better as per usual.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

Kave, I’m so sorry. Your daughter sounds awesome. I’ll keep you and your family in my thoughts.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

One of the worst things is no one lets you talk about it. Losing a child is one of the worst things we can think about. “How you doing Kave?” “Not bad but my daughter might die of cancer.” Talk about a conversation stopper. It’s not even that we are normally in complete denial if we weren’t we would have no friends.

That happened to my best friends mother. She was the buyer for a major book retailer, sharp as a tack . She had a major stroke which has left her still someone who can answer 3/4’s of the questions on Jeopardy but not quite the same. Her friends pretty much dumped her after the initial first visit to the hospital.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

I really can’t understand the way the rest of the family is dealing with it. Her sister: that sucks. Her brothers, you went to the doctors today?

The wife called me after the doctors appointment: It’s what we expected no big deal, she commented that her oncologist said she should have been a surgeon, kid was able to point out every lump in her neck for the doctor.

My wife is a true humanist. Although she doesn’t believe in a higher power she believes in some sort of karma in a way, at least she’s always acted like she did. I know advice would be online support groups for parents going through the same thing. We’ve look at them and frankly if I see one more rainbow bridge for dead pets I may…. I”m giving myself a self pity day and hoping the board members don’t read my posts in detail. My daughter is hopefully here for many years and I wish I had a way to let my wife allow herself to be sad.

all of humanity
10 years ago

praying for you.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Kave-hugs and I hope and pray for all the best for your family.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Kave – I’m so sorry to hear this, and I’m afraid I did read all your posts in detail and they just about broke my heart. I hope your family gets through this and I wish the best for your daughter. She sounds like a wonderfully strong and brave young woman.

tawaen
tawaen
10 years ago

Kave, I’m glad you feel you can vent here. I’ve lost family members to cancer, and it really does help to have someplace you can just say whatever you want without having it affect the people you’re trying to support and be strong for. So please continue as long as you feel it’s helping you deal with the anger/fear/frustration/pain.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

Kave, I don’t know what to say (I’m really not good at this), except to express my sympathies and admiration to you and your family.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Kave I’m so so sorry 🙁 *offers you great big hugs* All my thoughts and prayers to you, your wife and your amazing daughter

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

That’s terrible, Kave! I hope your daughter comes through this, and best wishes to you and your whole family.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Kave, thanks for putting a lot of petty things we complain about into perspective.
I love your daughter’s sense of humor.
Let’s hope for the best and that things can be turned around again.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

Thank you all.

I need a troll. Everyone of course has sides to them, one side of me grew up very privileged in a Ridley College way that leads me to come off as quite conservative.

However my wife’s favorite uncle is also a very privileged leather daddy, I’m far from naive and socially very liberal. Actually maybe my family and the people I know are really the Rothchild’s who are prompting and funding this whole gay agenda that nwo is so worried about. In fact we have good friends who are a threesome not a twosome.

I’m sure you all won’t mind but for the next little while I’m going to have a bit of a gutter mouth. The 6.2 in height white alpha male needs to be angry at someone and pathetic man/boys are a good target.

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

David

Want to do something for me? Post something other then cute kitten videos today. They are cute but I really can’t find reason to swear at them.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I can be a troll! 😀 RAWR! As the MRA movement gains ground on the internet rape rates go down! Coincidence? I think NOT! At this rate, rape is gonna be gone in no time, what are feminists whining about!?

I have other flavours! If you look at the trend of % of trans ppl in society going up over the years, you’ll see the % of cis ppl must be going down! At this rate we’lll be at 0% and all forced to transition or be killed and harvested for organs by those patriarchy loving trans women and their traitorous fun fem allies!!!!

The Canucks won the first series of their playoff run 4-3 in 7 games, then 4-2 in 6 games, and then 4-1 in 5 games, which means in the Final they should win the series over the bruins 4-0! SWEEEEPPPP!!!!! You can book it, you can’t deny trends!

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Hmmm Kave… throw me some topics that get you angry! Also how far I can go w/ them… I can do this *grits teeth* >:3

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Kave I dun mean to be flip about you needing something to let your anger out on : But there aren’t any trolls or nething around atm : And I can be pretty obnoxious and annoying.

Seraph
Seraph
10 years ago

Ami, getting mad at you when you’re like this is like getting mad at the kitten that’s hunting your foot.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I can be pretty obnoxious when I pretend to be a troll tho

http://ami-rants.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-im-anti-vegetarian.html

That was a satirical piece based on a “why I’m anti-feminist” thing… and I got a TON (in the comments and more from my email) if vegetarians threatening me w/ rape and death o_o;;

So I can do it >:3 But I’d be changing the way I write obv :]

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

*of >_>

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

Sorry Ami you are WAY too cute. Although I guess I could complain that because I’m old half the time I don’t know what you’re saying… but that would be a nag like my friggen 16 year old who I can park anywhere because all he does is text. Judging by him within two generations spoken language will be completely gone. Babies first words will be replaced by their first written omg on their cell phones. What’s the world coming to?

SIgned Grumpy old man

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Hay it’s not like ur langwag didn’t change either! In fact teh way we rite is more effishent than u old ppl n ur stoopid roolz

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

ur 16 y/o is prolly txting abt u n wut a word nazi u r

this is just lik ww2 … soon ull be wanting to lock us all up in camps or smthng NAZI

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Oh Kave, I’m so sorry.

Spearhafoc
10 years ago

DC Comics was sexist for crippling Barbara Gordon so she couldn’t be Batgirl anymore back in 1988!

DC Comics is ableist for making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again, taking her out of the wheelchair and out of her position as Oracle!

I believe both of those things, and I’m having trouble reconciling them!

Nah, I suck at trolling.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

u r an old loser n u r prolly anti tech too bet u r getting ur 16 y/o that u think is so stoopid to rite this 4 u

whos teh stoopid 1 then huh