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idiocy marriage strike men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny

Fun with charts, or why MGTOWers don't understand marriage trends

As we’ve seen again and again on this blog, misogynists love to talk about how much better men are than women when it comes to things like math, logic, and scientific thinking generally. Unfortunately, their posts and comments online – filled with breathtaking failures of logic, absurd unsourced assertions and magical thinking — do not seem to bear out this hypothesis.  I would compare the scientific thinking of most manosphere misogynists with that of the creationists, but frankly that would be insulting to creationists.

A case in point: a graph – provenance unknown – posted in a recent MGTOWforums discussion of marriage. The standard line amongst the lady haters is that marriage is on the way out , because men are “waking up” to the evils of marriage in an allegedly feminist state and deciding to, well, go their own way. The reality: while the marriage rate has been falling fairly steadily for the last quarter-century or so, for a variety of reasons, most people do marry at some point in their lives; it would be silly to assume that a trend over the course of several decades heralds the death of a social institution that has lasted (and has had many previous ups and downs) for millennia.

Of course, that’s not the way the MGTOWers in question see it. Their proof that marriage is doomed – doomed, I say – lies in this little graph which charts with mathematical precision the exact date range within which marriage will vanish forever from this good earth:

That's not right.

Now, there are many problems with this little graph. For one thing, what happens AFTER the projected marriage rate goes to zero? Does the marriage rate bounce like a rubber ball back into the positive realm? Or does it go below zero, with unmarried couples divorcing one another – just in case?

Second, this chart is based on a tiny number of data points – a mere 25 year sliver of the millennia-long history of divorce. If you go back a mere century and a half – see the chart below, taken from a paper you can find here — you’ll see that the marriage rate doesn’t conform to any neat mathematical formula; it jumps up and down, affected not only by slow-moving cultural changes but by events in the real world – look at the gigantic spike in marriage after World War II.

But the main issue here is that there is simply no way you can come up with a neat equation to predict the future of marriage because THE WORLD DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. History isn’t math. It cannot be predicted in advance, and any attempt to do so — especially one based on a tiny sliver of data — is doomed to failure. (Well, certain aspects of reality can be predicted — like when Halley’s comet will next return (assuming it’s not eaten by a giant space monster we haven’t discovered yet). Orbits can be calculated with mathematical precision; social trends cannot.)

To illustrate the dangers of extrapolation, let’s consider the little chart below, prepared by a helpful assistant (who happens to have access to a scanner). The chart provides some interesting data on the age of a hypothetical cat named “Fluffy” and her projected life expectancy. As you can see, Fluffy was hypothetically born in 2001, making her ten years old today, with her age increasing by one every year. (Just pretend that the numbers line up properly; my assistant, despite her many other charms, is not big on precision, and may have been drunk when she prepared this chart.) Based on this data (which show Fluffy’s age increasing by one every year), we could project that by the time the next century rolls around our dear little cat will be 99 years old.

If projecting the future were as easy as drawing little lines on graphs, the world would be a much simpler, and much less interesting, place to live. Most of us realize this. MRAs and MGTOWers, not so much.

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Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Great save by Thomas! 😀

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Nah Molly, the next letter in your all inclusive movement is “I” for incest. Although it’ll probably be renamed to something happy. Here I’ll give you the leftist arguement. There’s nothing wrong with two consenting adults having sex. Besides it’s just some religious taboo. There’s nothing wrong with it as long as contraception is properly used. Love knows no bounds. Ooooo, I like the sound of that catchy slogan.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Sorry, Slavey, we’re not up to incest yet. Even the LGBTQ movement still has trouble with multiple, age-of-consent partners, never mind related ones. 😛

So, to get back to my earlier question: What does the State’s mandates have to do with the divorce rate? You haven’t made your point clearly enough yet.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Reminds me of that utter idiot in that one county that refused to pay the $75 annual fee for the fire service from the local town (that he did not live in.) Most of the people who got huffy never bothered to find out that this was time number three, the city sent out annual notices, was unable to collect from those who used the services after due to a quirk in the law and the county government sat on the recommendations for two years before this fire.

Apparently a city is supposed to just not operate sensibly and keep paying for stuff that someone has no right to in the first place. What is that usually called? Right, stealing.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Was this the dude whose house burned down? 😛

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

@Spearhafoc: I thought he wanted to live in a Mad Men-esque post-apocalyptic wasteland. Potato, potahto. 🙂

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Yes Molly-I went and did a little googling, I wanted to be the one standing on the edge of the property laughing after I finished reading about how this guy was just basically a lazy user who had a habit of setting his house on fire.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

SCORES! Wow.. 3-0 Boston and the game’s just 9 minutes old :O Luongo’s gone… another Beantown meltdown for him xDDD I can’t believe how this series has been 1 goal bare wins in Vancouver by Vancouver, and blow outs in Boston O_O;;

@Molly I suspect it’s much like he thinks that rather than state laws relating to queer ppl, trans ppl, abortion, etc always being about restricting or banning, and he thinks that the state actually creates queer ppl and coerces women into abortions… he thinks it’s similar with divorce xD Without the state nobody would divorce b/c the state has brainwashed ppl to think they can …

FOUR NOTHING!!! XDDD

Wow! Kaberle scored! xD Yay!

neways… the state has brainwashed women to divorce husbands and w/o a state they wouldn’t want to. xD

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Here Molly, I’ll repost what I did before.

We’ll call a man partner “A” and a woman partner “B” and a child asset “C” Well at anytime partner “B” can disolve the parnership and take asset “C” plus at least half of the holdings. Partner “B” can also demand payment from partner “A” for asset “C” while denying access to asset “C” backed by the guns of the State.

It’s a pretty bad deal if you partner “A”

State mandated, but what faction could have lobbied for it?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

NWOslave:

Since you seem hell-bent on not answering the question I’ve repeated in my last couple posts, I’ll give you this one instead (mostly because I want to see you explode.) Do you think the government should prevent two people from having sex if there is a possible risk to the possible child that could possible result? If you don’t, hooray, you are now pro-incest! If not, then you are anti-NWOslave.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

But you’re worried about the divorce rate? Isn’t fewer people opting out of such an unfair arrangement a GOOD thing?

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

I know this is opening up an entire tractor-trailer load of worms, but I don’t think there is a problem with incest, in itself.

The biggest problem is that it’s often difficult to separate it from power imbalance and exploitation–a parent and child have a power dynamic that makes consent a very iffy and complicated and possibly impossible thing, and two siblings raised together may have this as well.

But these are things with reasons and justifications, you know, things that can ultimately be reduced down to “this is wrong because it can hurt people.” Even in the case of incest, we don’t say “it’s wrong because it’s incest and ew and wrong so I don’t have to think now!”

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I alrdy exists and is for intersex XD And the next one is still up for a vote… so far “dating my best friend’s girlfriend’s mother’s uncle” is leading b/c they bribed the delegates…

XDDDD

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

NWO, at any time partner A can dissolve the partnership as well. Are you saying men don’t initiate divorce?

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Molly if you’re already in such a partnership, theres a pretty good incentive for partner “B” to up and leave, right? I mean Tiger Woods was a dick for cheating but lets be real. Why does wifey who attacked him deserve a staggering reward? I mean son-of-a-biiiiitch. Thats real moolah there.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Slavey, have you considered pre-nups? Or maybe a common law marriage? Or why so many LGBTQ people want to GET married when it’s that raw of a deal?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

… has NWO exploded yet? That was… anticlimactic…

@Holly

I actually agree with you. I’ve gotten caught on the “incest leads to higher chances of mutation,” because we allow couples with genetic diseases to marry and have kids, even though the kids have a higher chance of catching the disease. Obviously there is power imbalance to take into account, but that is not a sole symptom of incestual relationships, so I kinda ignore it for now. Still trying to work this out for myself.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Only about 29% of the time hellkell. They don’t have an incentive to leave. Money talks.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I actually have no issue w/ incest either like Holly o_o as long as it’s not pedophilia… or rape…

Molly Ren
10 years ago

So now you’re saying people ONLY get married for the money? That’s what all the lobbying for same-sex marriage is for, then, right? So one partner can fleece the other in divorce?

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Incest works out so well in the Heinlein novels… XD

Speaking strictly from personal experience, I’ve never been that attracted to *anyone* in my family. This is why I now live in a kinky household and am best friends with people who have “poly nests”. 😛

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Hey did you guys hear about that Syrian lesbian feminists were beating the drum about recently. Well thats no woman, thats a man baby. Leftists and their constant stream of victimology lies. Too damn funny

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/13/syrian-lesbian-blogger-tom-macmaster

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

My best friend once told me about his client and the lesbian bull whip party but sadly it settled.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Nope, Slavey, we’re still talking about marriage. Leave the faux dykes for later.

Again, you’re saying people ONLY get married for the money? That’s what all the lobbying for same-sex marriage is for, then, right? So one partner can fleece the other in divorce?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

How do you know she attacked him? Aren’t you accusing her of domestic abuse? What a terrible accusation! She wasn’t even charged… given that Tiger Woods even denied it (he didn’t even recant), doesn’t that mean you just made a false accusation? You TERRIBLE FALSE ACCUSER xDDDDDD

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Oooooo, Molly. Polynest, is that da new family. Qweeeeet. Damn patriarch, if I had a hammer I’d smash it. Wait I’ve got one.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I thought only women made false accusations?! I iz confused.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

NWO:

So, am I to understand that you are pro-incest then, given your absolute hatred of anything state or law? By your own definition (law can’t give you a right you don’t already have), people already have the right to incest. Good to know.

Also, yes, I’ve heard about that, and its really fucked up that now idiots like you can trumpet it around as if saying “See? Now we know that ALL feminist bloggers everywhere are just manginas lying for ladies!”

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I think he’s done xD

Djinna
Djinna
10 years ago

Damn B&C people, causing problems for all the A’s of the world.. NWO and MRAL need to get their alphabets straight, though I admit, I can’t read MRAL’s Alpha rants without wondering exactly what they put into the decanting fluid to make an Omega, I mean, even in Brave New World, I don’t remember anything lower than an Epsilon. But it’s been several years, could be mis-remembering.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Nah, we’re not poly, I just live with people I’m not related to. Closer than housemates, but not lovers.

Wait… does this mean I live in a very small commune? O.o

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

So 71% of divorces are initiated because of the money involved? Who knew? You really mean divorce is that big a payoff the woman never has to work again in every instance of divorce?

Shit, I’ma call my lawyer right. now.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“I think he’s done xD”

Did me mentioning that I knew actual living, breathing poly people do it? Do I get an award?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

So where exactly is all this going? NWO apparently lurves marriage with a hard, throbbing passion, but also doesn’t want more marriage in the form of the queer community because they are all pedophiles.. And he doesn’t like group marriages either because… its not a “1 man 1 woman marriage?” Is that all this is? A really roundabout method of saying that all marriages should be one man breaking his back at the mills, and one woman locked in the kitchen watching the kids?

If that’s the case, who would ever want to get married?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

OMG, Holly, or whoever else is Bostonian… are you watching this game? :O

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Kirbywarp, I’m gaining a new respect for the usual commentators tonight. It’s damn hard to argue with someone when they won’t stay on topic!

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

I am an actual living, breathing poly person! I live in a, uh, “polynest!”

And if you’re asking “is that da new family,” well, it’s not new and it’s not a replacement for family, but it is actually a very nice way to live and should be added to the (infinite) list of things not to judge on “outrageousness” but on their actual harms and benefits.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Ami – No TV, or I would. But I’m following the score and hot damn. Canucks are toast.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

Molly:

You get used to it after a bit… The conversation is kinda like a ship out a sea, tossed upon the deaththroes of bull. You just kinda tighten the rigging, batton down the hatches, and ride it out wherever it goes. Its all the same sea, in the end.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Molly, the hetro family consists of mom/kids, dad is seperate, he can get the boot at anytime. Hell, on the new UN childrens passport theres a line for mothers name, a line for childs name, and a line simply called other. Dad is just an other.

LGBTQwxyz is whatever polyandrogenous union the State makes up.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“it’s not a replacement for family”

It’s not? 😛 I wanna hear more about this.

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

I also wonder if part of the taboo against incest comes from a time in which people lived closer, in tribes and villages, than they do now. If a community marries locally for ten generations, people are going to be more closely genetically related than it appears on paper (see: European royalty). So the chance of inbreeding (not mutation) goes up.

And even given the chance for brother/sister matches to produce inbred offspring, we still don’t mandate other people undergo genetic screening and then ban them from marrying; or ban people who are known to have certain genes from marrying people with similar genes. For instance, if a man and a woman who are unrelated each have a child from a previous marriage with a genetic condition, like Fragile X or sickle cell anemia (by which we know they carry these genes even without screening), they are still allowed to marry.

Also, “incentive for divorce”? Say what? The primary incentive for a couple to divorce is being unhappy living with a person and having their futures tied together; not looking for a payout. But NWOslave can’t even comprehend a satisfying marriage, so he can’t imagine people would divorce due to unhappiness or falling out of love with someone. I bet NWOslave thinks that spouses feel something between tolerance to resentment towards each other, with no comprehension of love, affection or respect. I feel pity for you, NWOslave, I really do – did your parents have a loveless marriage when you were growing up?

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

NWO – The State won’t even recognize my polyamorous relationship. Even in Massachusetts!

If they made up my relationship, they’re doing a pretty bad job at encouraging it.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“LGBTQwxyz is whatever polyandrogenous union the State makes up.”

Um, you do know same-sex marriage isn’t legal in a lot of states, right? Poly marriages aren’t even on the radar yet!

Damn, that’d be a nice world to live in, tho. Me and my (theoretical) two other partners could all share each other’s job benefits and see each other in the hospital…

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Holly, I don’t even know what a polyamorous relationship is.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Holly given that they’ve been having trouble scoring even in their wins, and they needed overtime to put THREE goals past Thomas as their highest output… it seems pretty grim for them XD

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

Why the hell would you want to live in a world where every day is a struggle to exist?

because he imagines that he will be some kind of local Big Chief, rather than zombie lunch.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“Holly, I don’t even know what a polyamorous relationship is.”

This explains so much. o.O

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

According to Wiki NWOaf is once again wrong.