Apparently we feminists simply can’t understand the Men’s Rights Movement, because
feminist ideology is still stuck in the 19th century concept that women are second class citizens when objectively they are in a better position than men. … The[y] just cannot grasp that in modern western society men are second class citizens.
Luckily, the good fellows at the Men’s Rights subreddit on Reddit are here to put us straight.
Oh, and while they’re at it, they would also like to explain to us at great length why the whole Slutwalk thing is so silly. I mean, telling women to not dress like sluts if they don’t want to get raped is just good common sense! And obviously dudes have a much greater understanding of the topic of rape and personal safety in general than silly ladies with their silly lady brains and their silly tendency to get drunk on silly lady drinks.
Because Reddit Men’s Rights is not completely dominated by retrograde MRA misogynists, there are actually some decent comments mixed in with all the patronizing nonsense. Enjoy?
@Zombie:
Sorry.. Guilty… I seem to be in a combative mood at the moment, I guess I still have argumentative stamina… I’m not gonna try to lead MRAL too far beyond trying to get therapy. No need to rehash what I think of his so-called “problems.” Just tell me to stop if it gets too much…
modern western society men are second class citizens.
In what respect, Charlie?
s’OK, kirby. I have fed trolls in my time, dog knows.
Just kind of tired, lord so tired, of seeing most every thread turned into a weep-fest about someone who doesn’t really have any problems.
Hey douchebag, I have posted for at least 2 days. Other people go off topic as much as me. If you don’t want to talk about me, that’s fine, in fact I’d prefer to discuss heightism in general, as a larger phenomenon. A lot of short people are “short” all over (fingers being the most notable area, crippling musical ability) almost as a “fuck you” from that asshole God. How can you people NOT SEE HEIGHTISM FOR THE EPIDEMIC IT IS???
Have you considered starting your own blog? 🙂 Every time you post, you could link to it here, and then ppl who want to can go and discuss it over there :3
MRAL:
Do you have any documented cases of heightism (other than yourself) that you would like to share? One person an epidemic does not make.
“Men are far less likely to apply to college than women”
As far as I’ve ever seen, this is only true among lower-income families, and among Hispanic and black populations (older students too). Among upper-class whites and Asians, men are more likely to go to college than their female counterparts, as shown here (although I know I’ve seen better write ups on the topic elsewhere). It’s frustrating, because I think there is A problem, but it’s not the problem MRAs would have you think it is. And when one says: Men don’t do well in school, that’s a completely different problem to my mind than: Lower-class and ethnic minority men don’t do well in school — or don’t advance to higher education, in any case.
Since upper-classes make up like, what, 5% of the population, I’d say it’s still a gendered epidemic. Even in the middle classes, men and women are heading to university in fairly skewed numbers. Even at expensive private universities, there is a significant gender disparity.
@kirby, come on man. Look at the world. The average height of Presidents and CEOs is fucking 6’0-6’1, for fuck’s sake. What more proof do you need?
@Ami, I may possibly start my own blog, that’s a good idea. But the thing is, I think heightism and my personal woes might become old after a while. Any suggestions for a broader topic.
MRAL:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06062/663897-331.stm
I’ll ask again, to you have documented evidence of height discrimination?
But the thing is, I think heightism and my personal woes might become old after a while.
ya think?
I’ll ask again, to you have documented evidence of height discrimination?
I especially for people who aren’t particularly short?
dammit Kirb, now I’M doing it!
Literally 2 seconds on Google, and there are many others:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2007-07-17-ceo-dominant-behavior_N.htm
(scroll down to about the middle, “height literally pays off” for the tangible, objective wage discrimination, and look at the rest for a good summary of the psychological bigotry that is constantly present for short people in the business world).
“Since upper-classes make up like, what, 5% of the population”
If you look at the link (which you don’t have to, it’s okay), you’ll see that the higher male/female numbers are true for the highest income quartile. That’s like, what, 25% of the population? I actually … don’t feel like looking it up right now, but last summer I was responding to someone who made a similarly incorrect point, and no. As of last year, top, expensive schools are more evenly split between men and women. Which makes sense, because that’s where the richer kids are going. (I just looked up Yale and Harvard, and there’s a fraction of a percent more women attending undergrad at both.)
Everyone else: Sorry for getting him started. I have a me in my bonnet tonight.
You can talk about w/e you want MRAL, it’d be your blog xD Whatever gets you upset about the world, expound on it. :3 See something on the news that you want to rant about… or praise? Go fer it… it’s like your own little radio show 😀
MRAL:
Guess what? I agree with you, to an extent. I agree that taller people tend to be more imposing, and I agree that CEOs benefit from the increased sense of power and dominance coming from a height advantage. I might even agree that, in the world of CEOs, short people are (unconciously) discriminated against.
But you are not a CEO. I’ve shown you an artical stating how short all the famous actors in Hollywood are. How does talking about height advantages in a narrow section of society relate to your specific feelings of discrimination? And if you want to say the problem with CEOs is a universal one, how do you explain hollywood?
Just once, I would like to see a Men’s Rights person describe what he or she thinks feminism is without delving into insults.
Here is what I think the Mens’ Rights Movement is about:
1. They believe there is a power imbalance in Western (and possibly Eastern, but most arguments I’ve seen seem to center on US culture) societies that favor women
2. Women are both more capable and willing to use sex appeal as social leverage
3. Women are more likely to get away with crime, obtain employment, have reproductive choices, and get primary custody of children because of their sex
4. Men have few resources to deal with these problems, and lose social standing if they discuss it.
I don’t think I insulted anyone, and I think I pretty clearly summed up my impressions of MRM. I don’t know what they think of feminism, other than they seem to think it’s pretty evil, gold-plates “pussies”, steals men’s children, and makes their lives sorry and horrible. But one of their main arguments is that people don’t “understand” feminism. No, I don’t think I do, because it seems to be equivalent to gender-based genocide to them, and I’m just not seeing it as such a powerful tool.
ALL the famous actors? I’d argue it’s simply more equal, and Hollywood is one of the few places that height is not such a big deal (because, if you’re facially attractive, they can make you look tall on camera). Evidence? 5’7 is not all that short objectively (3-odd inches below average) and yet people are acting all surprised there are a sizable number of 5’7ish guys in Hollywood. This despite the fact that statistically those people of that height or lower make up like 25-35% of the population. That’s the bigotry of low expectations right there.
In the rest of society…. well, since CEOs are the top of the business ladder, I think we can safely extrapolate that to the business word, and that’s a HUGE slice of our capitalist society. Women are obsessed with height, some even eliminate every man below 6’0 out of hand (there’s an article on heightism in OKCupid… basically, 5’9ers have to make like $20,000 more in terms of income to receive the same number of responses as a 5’10er). Need I go on?
MRAL:
Actually yes, because this is getting really interesting. Did you say “5’7 is not all that short objectively?” So, in other words, 2.5 inches shorter than YOU is not all that short objectively? What is this about?
Also, you talk about women and height. I’d like to see the article you cite, but more importantly I want to know what you make of the fact that women CEOs face the exact same height discrimination as males, and end up wearing high heels to compensate. Ami reminded me of this off thread, but haven’t you said before that height doesn’t matter for women?
Ignoring the validity of this supposed article… (good fodder for your blog, you shouldn’t spoil xD ) I’m on OKC xD I dun even look at how much ppl make… or think an inch of height makes a difference xD And yeah, I’m me. But I’m also a feminist. And I’m pretty sure every woman here will tell you that they’re not paying attn to income before they’ve even met the guy, or are factoring in 20k per inch xD So maybe you should like feminists, b/c they are not judging you as you believe others are 😀
Well, 1.5 inches shorter than me. But no, I really don’t think I’m all that short objectively. I’m almost 5’9, that’s like an inch and a half below average. But SOCIETY treats me like I’m super short, because heightism is so prevalent that men are expected to be fucking huge. If I had to compare it to something, it’s like the racist “one drop” rule in some Southern states way back when, where if you had any black ancestors, you’re considered black, even if you’re really not. Well, at 5’8ish, I’m considered a dwarf, even though I’m not that far below average.
Oh, and I meant height doesn’t matter for women in the dating arena. If anything, men go for shorter girls more often. However, if women take on traditionally masculine roles, sure, height matters.
There is nowhere on Earth where men are “second-class citizens.” MRAs need to wake up and realize that dealing with a handful of unfair things (which, by the way, are often exaggerated) doesn’t make you a second-class citizen. I also find it ironic that they claim feminists don’t know about the MRM, yet they apparently know oh-so-much about feminism. Riiiiiiiiiiight…
I’m 5’6″. I always wanted to be 5’11”. But apparently that doesn’t matter because I’m a girl so I can just suck it up or whatever. Yeah, 5’6″ is even above average “for a girl”. Well woop-de-doo, I’m above average for the short half of the population, big fucking consolation prize. I’m also above the average height of midgets. Or dogs. Or guinea-pigs. I should care about this why? I’m still below average FOR HUMANS, which is, I think, the important measure. I’m also shorter than both of my parents AND my sister! How is this fair? I blame my mom for raising me vegetarian – I’m sure if I had more meat as a kid I would have been taller >:(
I make up for it by wearing a lot of platform boots though 🙂 My favorite boots bring me up to about 5’10” which is close enough to make me happy 😀
See, it’s true women are shorter, but it’s also socially acceptable for them to wear monster 4″ heels, so when it counts, they don’t have to be short. What am I supposed to do? There are no “lifts” that big.
Well MRAL, this is the most reasonable I’ve ever seen you. I still want to see that article, btw. Here’s my biggest problem, though. I cannot speak to your experiences, nor your interpretation of such. Ask anyone around here, though, and you’ll be told again and again that your height doesn’t matter. And these are feminists talking. You’d probably be right at home amongst feminists (once you get over your horrid problems with women), who, at least around here, don’t think your height matters at all (and are vaguely creeped out by how obssesed you seem to be with half an inch).
It seems you have some valid concerns about height, but it speaks more towards the seeming necessity of dominance and submission in the corporate world than height specifically (the article mentions heavy CEOs as well as tall). This “heightism” applies to both men and women as well (again, women who have to wear heels to appear taller). And it doesn’t specifically speak to the apparently horrid difficulty you feel you are facing on a day-to-day basis. In fact, the situation with the coporate world seems unrelated, hence everybody continuing to urge you to seek councelling.
Feminism is not what you think it is, and if you would only see it for what it is, an equality movement, perhaps you’d be able to find a place to fit in, and to find support with dealing with your body image issues.
To be totally honest, I don’t mind my height on a day-to-day basis. I’m insecure about height insofar as it applies to women’s ridiculous obsession with it and my future career. But in terms of day-to-day interaction, I don’t care about height. No, God has fucked me a different way (of course) when it comes to day-to-day interactions with random people and platonic friends.