Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the most odious misogynist bullshit I have seen thus far on the topic of the Slutwalks: a post on The Third Edge of the Sword, a blog that seems to go out of its way to be offensive and “edgy,” that takes victim blaming to a whole new level. Here’s the basic, er, argument of the post, which the author has put in giant pink letters so we won’t miss it:
Every woman marching in the Edmonton Slut Walk is publicly declaring herself a slut. This means every woman there desires sex with any and all partners. Any sexual activity you initiate with them comes with implied consent. They cannot say no, and if they do understand all their ‘no’s mean yes. They are all asking for it. They want it bad. Now. From you. Go get ’em!
Some other highlights:
[I]f you … dress slutty, men are going to stare at you. We’re going to catcall. We are going to tell you all sorts of sexual things we want to do to your body. And if you dress slutty and wave your ass in our face, we will do them. The organizers of this event are not oblivious to this point: what they want is a fake sexual revolution. They want to be able to impersonate sluts without actually being sluts, and that’s unacceptable. If you don’t want to be treated as a piece of meat, don’t marinate and grill yourself and sit perched on a piece of garlic toast. You dress slutty, you show off the goods, you try to get a reaction, you will get one. Hint: it’s not always going to be the one you want. …
The “reaction” he has in mind is rape. By calling rape a “reaction” instead of what it is — a criminal assault on someone, an act of sexual violence, a violation — he of course is attempting to switch the blame to the victim. He spells out his “logic” in more detail:
[W]hen you impersonate a slut we don’t fine you, and we don’t throw you in jail. There’s really only one punishment for dressing like a streetwalker when you aren’t one: you do have to endure the occasional rape. You should really suffer it in silence. Accept the character flaw within you that caused this, and move on. Police and court resources are already busy enough with real criminals: like actual rapists who do nasty things to their niece or the homeless native chick passed out under the bridge, or a conservatively dressed urban professional walking to her car, or a girl out jogging in a track suit. To equate the act of actually violating and raping one of these people with having sex with a girl who’s every square millimetre of public persona screams anybody who wants to can screw me right now is ridiculous.
Once again, this brand of misogyny leads to some conclusions that are pretty misandrist – namely, the notion that men are at heart rapists who can’t control their violent urges:
If you go out on the street in an outfit that would make Britney Spears feel uncomfortable, you do so knowing that your ultimate aim is to make men want you. Well, they want you now. Congrats. Oh, wait, you mean you didn’t understand what that implied? That in the great Bell curve of sexual congress you’ve just pushed everybody on the right-hand side of the -2 std devs line past that imaginary barrier that says “there is no power in the universe powerful enough to stop me from sliding my finger inside your panties”? I call bullshit. You do know. But you want to be a virginal slut, to dress in ways that makes men helpless to their urges but still leaves you fully in restrictive control.
The blogger concludes by arguing that the Slutwalkers are all “lying bitches” because they dress like they wasn’t to be raped, but do not actually want to be raped. Then he makes this lovely suggestion:
If your wife is one of them, I’m very very sorry. Maybe a good rape might make her a little more manageable around the house.
Now this post is an atmittedly extreme example of a misogynistic response to the Slutwalks. But the basic “logic” of this blogger’s would-be argument is essentially identical to that of many MRA and other “manosphere” pieces I’ve seen on the subject, the main difference between them being that this guy embraces the logical conclusion of his argument — that Slutwalkers deserve to be raped — while the MRAs who make essentially the same argument (and fling the same sorts of insults at the Slutwalkers) make a show of saying that they don’t really think the Slutwalkers “deserve” it. And maybe they’ve convinced themselves that this caveat means something . But in that case the extreme reaction that manosphere misogynists have had to the Slutwalks – the insults thrown at the Slutwalkers, the “jokey” references to rape, the prurient sneering – makes little sense. If you argue that women are “asking for it” when they dress like “sluts,” you’re essentially saying they deserve it. You’re making the same argument this guy is making, but pretending you aren’t.
NOTE: The graphic above is taken from the official web site for the Edmonton SlutWalk 2011, which took place a week ago. Here are some pictures of the march.
Generally a parent is required to educate their offspring. Or did you think a woman should just leave the child in the woods?
The use is that the gentlemen you encounter know if they try anything with your white ass, the cops are going to be real fucking interested in a way they might not be with black-on-black crime.
Dude, I’ve lived in Harlem, it really hasn’t been the sort of war zone you seem to be imagining any time lately.
Good for you Hershele
Amused (and MRAL.. in re your comment about women being more privileged than men) it’s an interesting thing that when a significant portion of a profession becomes female… the wage drops. This has a positive feedback loop which quickly follows… because of the lower wage, fewer men take up the profession, and the wages continue to drop, which causes fewer men to enter the profession, and soon it’s seen as, “women’s work”.
re men and childcare: I’ve been an au pair. I’ve also been a primary babysitter. I didn’t get a higher wage from it. What I did (and still do get) is a lot of, “wow… that’s impressive” when someone finds out about it.
Because I know how to change a diaper, and warm frozen breast milk, because I don’t stare, goggle-eyed at someone expressing milk for later use, because a squalling infant doesn’t send me into a tizzy of frustrated panic (not, at least if it lasts for less than about 20 minutes :)) I get treated as if I am some sort of paragon.
If I am/was in public when one of my charges began to bellow do you you know what I didn’t get? I didn’t get dirty looks. Instead I got people coming over to see if they could help me.
That’s privilege.
One of the things that being able to say I was an au pair could get me… is laid. It seems being a proven helper in the care of babies dept. is a big plus in the “Alpha” scale.
Titfortat – I am just trying to point out that many times past and present I never felt the presence of my white male privilege.
Well that’s kinda the point of privilege actually. Privilege is all the little advantages you totally take for granted. Unless you look hard for it or get it pointed out by someone who doesn’t have it you DON’T see it or feel it.
An example I can think of of when my own privilege was pointed out to me… in this case it was ableist privilege;
I was at a friend’s house and an ad came on TV for a little device that would help people open pop-top cans. It would basically slide under the tab and allow a person to lever the top of the can up without having to grab the tab directly. I stated that I thought that was a stupid waste of money and why would anyone buy such a thing. My friend yelled at me that such a device would be really helpful to her – she has arthritis and gripping little can tabs is really difficult and maybe I should think for a second about how things aren’t as easy for everyone as they are for me.
I got really quiet. I didn’t know how to even respond to that. She was totally right – it had not even occurred to me that opening cans was something that was difficult for other people. I took it totally for granted that it was no big deal – grab the tab, pop it open, easy-peasy. We feed our cats out of cans like that twice a day. It’s a tiny thing, not nearly as significant as being turned down for a job or denied housing or beaten on the street… but even the tiny privileges add up. It was an important lesson to me to remember to think about my privilege more and not blurt out stupid shit that might be disrespectful to the experience of others around me who don’t have the same privileges I do. I don’t always succeed in this of course, but I’ve gotten a little bit better over time.
I should probably thank my friend for that. It was several years ago and the experience still sticks with me. I never actually brought it up to her again.
Pecunium (and Amused), I’m very sorry if my poorly chosen example was hurtful in any way. I am obviously not a man, and I don’t have children, so it’s hard for me to judge. FWIW, I’ve heard and read stories from fathers (including my boyfriend) and other men who did feel as though women exercised some amount of privilege in terms of childcare. And also, FWIW, I basically took an idea from the Shakesville post I linked to and ran with it, rather than spending a lot of time agonizing over the perfect example.
So, again, sorry. I think the larger point about intersectional and relational privilege still stands, however, and that someone from a group that is normally seen as not privileged can, under a narrow set of circumstances, have privilege — and vice versa. I hesitate to give examples, so I hope you can see what I’m saying.
Bee, it didn’t hurt me at all. It’s actually a useful example. Yes, it’s harder to be a male caregiver, and there is some privilege to being female in that context (I had a friend, who refused to listen to my comments about breastfeeding; never mind that I’ve been around, intimately, four children who were breastfed, from birth to aged about three).
But my fiancée (at the time), who had zero experience, said the same thing I’d been saying and she listened.
Privilege is subtle, and it’s variable, and the ways in which one has it aren’t readily apparent. I’m lucky in that the ways in which I’ve gotten to see mine (and the ways in which I my non-privilege are hidden… my disabilities are invisible, which means I get to be on both ends of the able-spectrum, at the same time), have been relatively painless.
Well that’s kinda the point of privilege actually. Privilege is all the little advantages you totally take for granted.(Plymouth)
I think you may have missed what I was trying to say. In many instances it didnt matter that I was a white male. In those instances I had no privilege. In other words I didnt feel the presence of my advantage because it wasnt there.
One of the things that being able to say I was an au pair could get me… is laid.(Pecunium)
Other than being an exceptional debater I have noticed something else about your writing style. On several occasions you make reference to your sex life and prowess. I find that very interesting considering it borders on being sexist, at least in tone.
Titfortat what they mean is that you don’t realise your privilege until someone points it out. If you went with me through airport screening I would point out that I would be the one who would have to go behind a curtain for a “special screen” while you did not. That’s you being a bit more privileged.
That fresh tomato you have left out because you don’t like the taste. I know people who couldn’t afford to even buy a tomato. That little bit of food left over would be scraped of and eaten.
Privilege is not realised until someone points it out. That’s what they are trying to say.
That and “men often can do stuff women do that is stereotypically not a male gender role”.
Titfortat what they mean is that you don’t realise your privilege until someone points it out(Avicenna)
I understand that. What I have been trying to point out(unsuccessfully) is that some feminists use the “white male privilege card” as a weapon to say that we have it better ALL of the time. Some imply that because of this so called status we dont understand what it is like to be oppressed. I am saying that I dont agree with that outlook.
“What I have been trying to point out(unsuccessfully) is that some feminists use the “white male privilege card” as a weapon to say that we have it better ALL of the time. Some imply that because of this so called status we dont understand what it is like to be oppressed. I am saying that I dont agree with that outlook.”
Who are these feminists? No one in this thread is saying that. I think you might just be creating a straw feminist here.
Heehee Snowy
Also, having bad things happen in your life is not oppression. If you walk down the street in Dangerous Ghetto A and get mugged, that is not oppression, that is a sucky thing you had happen to you.
Getting pulled over by the cops and “checked” to see if you stole your BMW every week is.
I think at this point, we are in the “child support is just as bad as rape” territory. Minus Cold’s directness, of course.
T4T: sexist, because I have sex? Because I notice (sometimes) the occasions in which the possibility of sex shows up? That’s a funny definition of sexist.
As to my reference to “prowess”, I think you are reading into it. Note, for example, the interpretation you seem to be putting on that comment. Did I say it has gotten me laid? No. Have I said anything about my being a better lover because of having been an au pair no. Have I, actually, said anything about the specifics of my sex life in my comments on manboobz (feel free to cite them, if you think I have)
I observed that an aspect of the gender dynamic is affected by what I did, in a way that isn’t affected when a woman does it. And that, you call sexist?
I’m 44. I’ve been having sex for some time now. In that time I’ve learned a fair bit, and observed a fair bit. Sex, as a topic has come up while I’ve been engaged in the conversation, I’ve taken part. Somehow that’s sexist (in tone… whatever you mean by that).
So… (not that I really expect an answer, given the way you don’t actually answer the questions generated from your little bits of passive aggression) is your definition of sexism?
T4T I understand that. What I have been trying to point out(unsuccessfully) is that some feminists use the “white male privilege card” as a weapon to say that we have it better ALL of the time. Some imply that because of this so called status we dont understand what it is like to be oppressed. I am saying that I dont agree with that outlook.
Citation needed. Strawman. Vague (some imply… really? And the lurkers support you in e-mail, I am sure).
Obviously men are seen as unique for childcare, because they rarely do it. It’s the same way female soldiers are seen as unique. Its not indicative of “privilege”.
MRAL: Read for content.
Also, there are more women soldiers (as a percentage) than there are male caregivers. They are far from unique. If you are curious you could try joining the Army. Of course you would have to accept that women get to order you around.
But what I said stands… if a woman has a child who is crying, she gets dirty looks and sometimes actual insults. When it happens to be a man with a child who is crying he gets supportive help.
That’s privilege.
Also, having bad things happen in your life is not oppression.(Poster)
Getting beaten consistently for years is just a “bad” thing I guess. Its definately not oppressive, right?
That was not the example you used Tit. So stop with the whining.
No, Titfortat, getting beaten consistently for years in the context that you have described is not oppression. And stop it with the “woe is me” olympics, please. I, for one, am not impressed. If being beaten consistently for years is the worst thing that’s ever happened to you, you should count your blessings. Honestly, I didn’t want to say this, but you’ve been pushing it.
T4T: Depends on context. Then again, you keep ignoring all the people who say privilege is a contextual thing. Being white doesn’t get you much privilege in Kenya, or India, now. It used to.
Privilege is like being part of the Old Boys Network. It’s how people like George Bush manage to fail upwards, all the time. He had a huge amount of privilege. It’s sort of like the huge flaw in DKM’s argument about how all the ills of the Western World (as he sees them) are the fault of making it a bit less privileged to be white, and male. Never mind that almost all of the people who made the decisions to outsource jobs, erode manufacturing, stagnate wages, engage in CDFs, CDOs, and Securitised Mortgages (or, to go back a a bit, the Derivatives which wiped out Barclay’s, or to go back a bit further, the Saving s and Loan Scandal, or the Crash of 1929, or the bigger crash of 1870) were almost all white males.
Those paragons of brains.
How does it come about that… with all this brilliance that he says men have (thus justifying privilege) all those failures happen?
But I’m digressing. I’ve been a minority white. It didn’t get me much… on the street. But in school it did. I was presumed to be on the “college track”, and the black and brown kids (even when in the majority) had to, “prove themselves” to get out of the vocational track.
So yeah, had people who wanted to beat me up, because I stood out. That was a place where my privilege didn’t help me. But it doesn’t mean I didn’t have it.
(Oh yeah… could you please define sexism, so I know what you mean by it, lest I offend unintetionally?)
“But what I said stands… if a woman has a child who is crying, she gets dirty looks and sometimes actual insults. When it happens to be a man with a child who is crying he gets supportive help.
That’s privilege.”
Think of this scenario: A person has a flat tire and is standing on the side of the road trying to change the tire. Men are more inclined to stop and help a woman than to help a man. (I’m not making this up, totally. I slightly remember a study which came to this conclusion.) Would you call that privilege?
In both cases (crying child, flat tire) the person gets help because the helper assumes the person is not capable of fixing the problem on his/her own. And in both cases this assumption is based on the gender of the person. So the privilege of getting help comes with the price of assumed incompetence.
I see what you are saying, Thomas, but there is another factor at play here — and that’s the factor of the default sex versus the helper sex. According to the traditionalist view as I’ve experienced it, if men are believed to be incapable of doing something, then the solution is to have women do it and lower the standard for men. I touched upon this briefly: a man is considered a good father even if he barely does any child care. And that’s not relatively good — a father who gives his children only a modest amount of attention is nevertheless considered an equally good parent, as good as the mother, who is expected to devote all of her free time and sacrifice her career to be considered good. In other words, the belief that men are incompetent at child care doesn’t lead people to conclude that men in general are terrible parents, but to lower the bar for being considered a good father so much, that merely bringing home a paycheck is considered sufficient in most people’s minds, certainly in the minds of MRA’s. When it comes to chronically ill children, a man would be considered a hero if he merely does not leave, whereas the idea of the mother leaving is unthinkable.
This paradigm doesn’t translate to tire-changing. Many consider women inherently inferior drivers (although practice does not support the bias) — but this belief in the inferiority of women does not lead to a favorable double standard, where a woman is considered an objectively excellent driver merely for getting from point A to point B without crashing the car, whereas a man must be a stunt driver, an engineer and an auto mechanic rolled into one in order to be considered merely as good as the woman, whose measure of excellence, again, is merely getting from point A to point B.
So once again, I hate to be a pest here, but in all honesty, I can’t agree that the “privilege” of having men stop and help you change a tire (usually in exchange for sex or money, anyway) matches the privilege that men who care for children get in the form of sympathy and assistance.