Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the most odious misogynist bullshit I have seen thus far on the topic of the Slutwalks: a post on The Third Edge of the Sword, a blog that seems to go out of its way to be offensive and “edgy,” that takes victim blaming to a whole new level. Here’s the basic, er, argument of the post, which the author has put in giant pink letters so we won’t miss it:
Every woman marching in the Edmonton Slut Walk is publicly declaring herself a slut. This means every woman there desires sex with any and all partners. Any sexual activity you initiate with them comes with implied consent. They cannot say no, and if they do understand all their ‘no’s mean yes. They are all asking for it. They want it bad. Now. From you. Go get ’em!
Some other highlights:
[I]f you … dress slutty, men are going to stare at you. We’re going to catcall. We are going to tell you all sorts of sexual things we want to do to your body. And if you dress slutty and wave your ass in our face, we will do them. The organizers of this event are not oblivious to this point: what they want is a fake sexual revolution. They want to be able to impersonate sluts without actually being sluts, and that’s unacceptable. If you don’t want to be treated as a piece of meat, don’t marinate and grill yourself and sit perched on a piece of garlic toast. You dress slutty, you show off the goods, you try to get a reaction, you will get one. Hint: it’s not always going to be the one you want. …
The “reaction” he has in mind is rape. By calling rape a “reaction” instead of what it is — a criminal assault on someone, an act of sexual violence, a violation — he of course is attempting to switch the blame to the victim. He spells out his “logic” in more detail:
[W]hen you impersonate a slut we don’t fine you, and we don’t throw you in jail. There’s really only one punishment for dressing like a streetwalker when you aren’t one: you do have to endure the occasional rape. You should really suffer it in silence. Accept the character flaw within you that caused this, and move on. Police and court resources are already busy enough with real criminals: like actual rapists who do nasty things to their niece or the homeless native chick passed out under the bridge, or a conservatively dressed urban professional walking to her car, or a girl out jogging in a track suit. To equate the act of actually violating and raping one of these people with having sex with a girl who’s every square millimetre of public persona screams anybody who wants to can screw me right now is ridiculous.
Once again, this brand of misogyny leads to some conclusions that are pretty misandrist – namely, the notion that men are at heart rapists who can’t control their violent urges:
If you go out on the street in an outfit that would make Britney Spears feel uncomfortable, you do so knowing that your ultimate aim is to make men want you. Well, they want you now. Congrats. Oh, wait, you mean you didn’t understand what that implied? That in the great Bell curve of sexual congress you’ve just pushed everybody on the right-hand side of the -2 std devs line past that imaginary barrier that says “there is no power in the universe powerful enough to stop me from sliding my finger inside your panties”? I call bullshit. You do know. But you want to be a virginal slut, to dress in ways that makes men helpless to their urges but still leaves you fully in restrictive control.
The blogger concludes by arguing that the Slutwalkers are all “lying bitches” because they dress like they wasn’t to be raped, but do not actually want to be raped. Then he makes this lovely suggestion:
If your wife is one of them, I’m very very sorry. Maybe a good rape might make her a little more manageable around the house.
Now this post is an atmittedly extreme example of a misogynistic response to the Slutwalks. But the basic “logic” of this blogger’s would-be argument is essentially identical to that of many MRA and other “manosphere” pieces I’ve seen on the subject, the main difference between them being that this guy embraces the logical conclusion of his argument — that Slutwalkers deserve to be raped — while the MRAs who make essentially the same argument (and fling the same sorts of insults at the Slutwalkers) make a show of saying that they don’t really think the Slutwalkers “deserve” it. And maybe they’ve convinced themselves that this caveat means something . But in that case the extreme reaction that manosphere misogynists have had to the Slutwalks – the insults thrown at the Slutwalkers, the “jokey” references to rape, the prurient sneering – makes little sense. If you argue that women are “asking for it” when they dress like “sluts,” you’re essentially saying they deserve it. You’re making the same argument this guy is making, but pretending you aren’t.
NOTE: The graphic above is taken from the official web site for the Edmonton SlutWalk 2011, which took place a week ago. Here are some pictures of the march.
@Ami Angelwings: Aw, thanks! You are always so kind to everyone on these threads 🙂
Indulging your constant spoiled and pissy demands for attention is actually bad for you, MRAL, so in a weird kind of way I am trying to do you a favor.
Get therapy. Being short is not a crippling disability (says the woman who is 5 foot even), having short fingers is not a crippling disability (says the woman who functions every damn day with chronic pain) and girls not paying enough attention to you is not you being discriminated against by a cruel society and a crueler god, period. And I am now officially done with talking about your alleged problems unless it is because you have come back to tell us what you are doing to address those problems.
I know this is a radical idea but maybe people would be more interested in talking to you without all your self-pitying nonsense and trying to make everything about you. Get a hobby. Get several hobbies. Read about current events. Follow a freakin’ sports team. Join a club, a theater group, a fund raising team for some childhood illness. Be more interesting.
Be more interested, while you’re at it. People are all around you. Read history. Watch documentaries. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Consider the revolutionary idea that other people do not exist simply as stage props in the melodrama of your life. Other people have lives and feelings and problems and interests- care about that.
You are young and you are evidently in college and I’d put money on the chances you are lonely, unhappy and scared your whole life is going to be more of the same. You can change all that. You can but you have to give up the security blanket of telling yourself that everything is somebody else’s fault. So much of your misery is self-inflicted and you really do seem to need professional help.
So, here’s a thought and I hope I won’t get taken as “concern trolling” here, but there ARE actually studies showing that certain women are more likely to be targeted by rapists:
Conventional wisdom holds that women who dress provocatively draw attention and put themselves at risk of sexual assault. But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped-and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation.
http://www.openleft.com/diary/14082/victimology-of-rape
So, without it being about “victim blaming”, is it possible to teach women to be more assertive and therefore less likely to be raped?
I know a lot of people (not just women) who have been the victims of sexual violence. I never have. Some of them in their “don’t blame the victim” mindset go, I think, a bit over the line and try to tell me I should worry about rape more because rapists can target anyone and everyone and it could be me next. And that makes me angry because I feel like it’s taking away my agency. I really DON’T worry about rape that much. I don’t think I’m victim-proofed against ever being raped but it’s just not high on my list of worries because I don’t think I’m very likely to be a victim. I project pretty strong “fuck off” vibes, even when I’m wearing a mini-skirt, a corset and heels (I go to goth clubs a fair bit – it’s kindof a thing).
I’m much more likely to be a victim of other things, like, say, having my car broken into – that has happened to me twice and both times there were things that I could have done to make it less likely and I am still mentally kicking myself for not doing those things.
A friend of mine linked recently to a couple of good articles with (what I thought was) actual solid advice about limiting the likelihood of date rape:
http://budotalk.com/acquaintance-or-date-rape.html
http://www.doitnow.org/pages/175.html
Is this kind of advice considered “victim blaming”?
PS Ami wins the whole interwebs everywhere ever for ‘Crisis of Infinite Jerks’. And of course kirbywarp has a secret base- that’s where Captain Bathrobe is training the Super Soaker SWAT Teams for our world domination plot.
MRAL – if you wanna ask for off-topic advice there’s actually a special OPEN THREAD if you scroll back just a bit! There nothing is off-topic! Take advantage of it!
Plymouth:
I may be wrong here, but simply saying that certain subsets of people are more at risk is not victim blaming. Perhaps spinning it as “you just need to be more assertive and you won’t get raped” would be, but “rapists tend to target more vulnerable people” is not. Offering advice, in general, shouldn’t be victim blaming either, advice about clothing happens to be of a particular sort where people are saying “you need to look less attractive to rapists,” which is based on completely subjective and uncontrollable circumstances.
To some extent, saying “you just need to be more assertive” is along the same lines, since it involves personality (which is very difficult to change, sometimes impossible) and how bold a rapist is, and probably wouldn’t fly. But if the stats are good, the information behind it is still worthwhile to know.
Like plymouth seems to be, though, I’m willing to be corrected on this.
@Plymouth is there a way I can talk to you privately? o:
Ion’s response indicates that he is annoyed at being proven wrong and just can’t admit it, so instead of refuting our responses he implies that we’re either gay/bi/trans, rape victims, aspies, or have mental health issues. Not that that any of those would make the person wrong anyway.
That’s a lot of ASSumptions there. Annoyed at being proven wrong? I don’t think I was “proven wrong”, and even if it was the case I wouldn’t be “annoyed”. I don’t tie my self-worth into winning internet arguments. And I didn’t imply anything, I asked a question. Fact is, I saw a fairly large number of commenters actually admit to being one or more of those things. Which would explain the militant vibe, the strongly worded replies, the emotional outbursts etc. Seems that most people here share a particular set of experiences and beliefs which sets them apart from the ‘general population’ so to speak. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I never tried to “delegitimize” anyone (I do, however hate academic buzzwords). If anything, people who’ve gone through certain experiences might be more qualified to talk about the subject, being closer to it.
Now that I’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s get back to the main thing. Given that everyone agrees a crime is a crime, and nobody except deranged extremists is seriously arguing that rapists have an ‘excuse’… Is it your belief, and everyone else’s here, that there is no behavior that women could engage in that could possibly place them at higher risk for sexual assault, and claiming the contrary constitutes ‘victim-blaming’? Because in the end, that’s what this whole thing is about, isn’t it.
Oh, for an ‘edit post’ button.
Seems I didn’t read the responses above me carefully enough, and a lot of what I said was partly answered. Sorry about that.
” there is no behavior that women could engage in that could possibly place them at higher risk for sexual assault, and claiming the contrary constitutes ‘victim-blaming’?”
Ion, if you look at Plymouth’s last posts, you will see a great example of just this. Rapists may be more likely to attack vulnerable people. The reason this isn’t victim blaming is that she is not placing responsibility on these people to be less vulnerable, the responsibility still lies squarely with the rapist.
I don’t know about ’emotional outbursts’. I was pretty angry about rape before I was raped.
Where’s the matching flood of well-meaning advice to men and boys on how not to rape someone? Advice that should probably come from other men because if someone is inclined toward committing sexual assaults it seems unlikely he is going to give much weight to advice from the pool of possible victims.
Whenever rape prevention is under discussion it’s all about what to wear/not wear, where to go/not go, who to interact with. All of which does damn all for the victims who are attacked in their homes or by people they know or by family members or authority figures. Telling women to arm themselves presumes that courts are going to be open to the ‘I thought he was going to attack me’ defense- and if a woman waits until the attack is in process the advantage of having the gun is pretty damn well nullified.
What can men do to prevent rape? And why is that question so rare while the endless second guessing about victims choices goes on and on.
Where’s the matching flood of well-meaning advice to men and boys on how not to rape someone? Advice that should probably come from other men because if someone is inclined toward committing sexual assaults it seems unlikely he is going to give much weight to advice from the pool of possible victims.
Heh. The advice given to men and boys is usually “be aggressive! be the hunter! take charge! women play hard to get but they’re secretly turned on by guys who are aggressive! nice guys finish last! Be a real man, not a wimp!” etc. And this comes from both men and women, btw.
I can’t speak for whomever you’re directing your question to and everyone else here, but it is my belief that there is behaviour that women engage in that places them at higher risk for sexual assault…. it just isn’t the behaviour that is trumpeted over and over again, ad nauseum, as being what places women at higher risk for sexual assault. Oddly enough, it’s the same behaviour that places women at higher risk for repeated non-sexual domestic assault. One of the problems with trying to discuss this with MRAs is that the behaviour that places women at higher risk for these types of assaults is the behaviour that they wish women would universally return to… quiet, non-assertive, modest, subservient and subordinate to men, etc.
But that would be misandrist!
Heh. The advice given to men and boys is usually “be aggressive! be the hunter! take charge! women play hard to get but they’re secretly turned on by guys who are aggressive! nice guys finish last! Be a real man, not a wimp!” etc. And this comes from both men and women, btw.
Yes, advice stemming from conservative, traditionalist values. Also, conservatives and traditionalists, both men and women, tend to be anti-feminist, so when feminists would prefer that that type of advice NOT be given, we’re accused of trying to “feminize” men, which will lead to the destruction of the universe and all that.
One would think if rape would be about getting drunk and dressing like “sluts”, there would be no rape in conservative Islamic societies.
One would think if rape would be about getting drunk and dressing like “sluts”, there would be no rape in nursing homes or of any other vulnerable elderly women.
One would think if rape would be about getting drunk and dressing like “sluts”, the Catholic church wouldn’t be having a massive PR problem right now.
One would think if rape would be about getting drunk and dressing like “sluts”, there would be no prison rape jokes because the idea of such a thing happening would be ludicrous.
One would think if rape would be about getting drunk and dressing like “sluts”, rape wouldn’t be the war crime it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape
Yet somehow rape is only the victim’s fault if she’s a woman within a certain age range (not a child, not elderly), drinks, and doesn’t dress in what men consider an appropriate manner.
Though to be fair, to some fundamentalists religionists, women are always at fault which is why some societies still execute rape victims.
MRAL, I’ll indulge you on this one – I think even if it were possible, like with other organ transplants, you would have to be on immune system suppressants for the rest of your life, and you’d probably still have to worry about tissue rejection…and actually, there’s a good possibility that the eye tissue would just die.
“Where’s the matching flood of well-meaning advice to men and boys on how not to rape someone?”
That.
Look, I actually think that the comic is a little hyperbolistic. But it, just like the police officer that inspired SlutWalk, doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It comes with the cultural baggage of victim-blaming. It’s terrifying how often we hear someone’s “sluttiness” used as to try and make a rape sound less bad. And particularly in the MRA corner of the internet, there seems to be a lot of slut-shaming. People aren’t simply reacting to one incidence, they are using this incidence as an example of something they view as a larger more pervasive problem. Again, it doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Pam- telling MRAs women dont like to be raped is probably misandrist according to them. How DARE we make a choice in who we want fucking us?!
Ion- If I recall correctly, I and others gave you reasons why women’s clothing dont matter in a rape. You then responded with the mental health/victim/aspie comment. It came across like you thought we were overreacting..if that’s not the case then whatever then.
As for your question, I agree with Plymouth’s post. Certain characteristics in a person can make them come across as an easy target for predators. I even remember hearing somewhere that when walking down the street, make eye contact with people. It shows you aren’t afraid. I have a hard time with this sometimes but I always try to keep a stern face too.
The best solution I can think of though is drilling it into everyone’s head that no means no and telling men and boys to respect women and listen for clear consent. Men should educate other men as Needtoknow mentioned, and more men and women should keep spreading rape awareness and debunking rape myths like slutty clothing causing rape. And those poor widdle MRAs who detest women (and “manginas”) who speak up can go back to their little blogs and rant thus providing more material for David’s blog 😛
Convicted rapists need way harsher sentences too.
“Heh. The advice given to men and boys is usually “be aggressive! be the hunter! take charge! women play hard to get but they’re secretly turned on by guys who are aggressive! nice guys finish last! Be a real man, not a wimp!” etc. And this comes from both men and women, btw.”
Exactly! and this is practically the entire theory of PUA. No means Yes. Its disgusting. There are ways to pursue a woman without being an overly aggressive prick. Its also not feminizing to teach men to respect women’s wishes and not approach them as conquests, but rather like fellow human beings.
I’m not directing that to you yourself btw Ion, but what you wrote.
Need to Know:
Shhh. Don’t give away the plan!
Rape Prevention tips that actually work!
Dear Men,
If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.
Don’t perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.
@Quackers: Like Spearhafoc, I am also a natural at not raping people! I find that asking for affirmative consent helps in that. Like, literally, asking, “can I do X?” or “is it okay if I do Y?”, until I get to know a said partner better. Some people find that a little strange, and admittedly, I don’t have a whole lot of experience, but I’d rather be sure that what’s happening is fun for all involved, not just me. It also teaches me what people like, so double win!
I think that asking should just be part of the sexual script. There’s a weird sort of idea that people passionately fall into bed and just automatically know what to do, but… it doesn’t really work that way for most people. It shouldn’t be expected of someone to just magically know things – I know some men worry about being seen as inexperienced or bad in bed, but questions are how you learn! And being able to say, “I want X,” or “Y is good for me,” and “I do not like Z,” shouldn’t be a slutty thing, either. It’s good, useful information for all involved. Being free to discuss and define sexuality helps cut down on misunderstanding, and by extension, the worries about a false rape accusation are much less.
HAHAHAHAHAHA, MRAL, @ your “unique” pain. You are not unique. Keep saying that until it sinks in.
Thanks for the best laugh so far today.
Bostonian! That was a brilliant list *copies and hands out to Frat Row at ASU*
Ion: “Heh. The advice given to men and boys is usually “be aggressive! be the hunter! take charge! women play hard to get but they’re secretly turned on by guys who are aggressive! nice guys finish last! Be a real man, not a wimp!” etc. And this comes from both men and women, btw.”
Yes and that is what we are talking about changing so men no longer feel the pressure to do something like that.
Ion: What’s wrong with questioning the victim’s behavior is that it’s ONLY done in cases of rape, never any other crime. Only with rape, do people like you rush to rationalize the rape as a consequence of something the victim did or didn’t do, with the perpetrator being a mere afterthought. Think about this: Do you EVER hear analyses like that applied to any other situation? I bet you don’t. So let’s try a little game and apply this whole “the victim had it coming” pseudo-logic to other crimes. Let’s start with the base line:
“Of course rape is a crime and rapists should be punished. But what’s wrong with saying that the victim’s clothes and the fact that she didn’t live like a nun are some of the reasons for her rape? Rape ‘victims’ aren’t innocent little victims if they tempt men.”
And now, for the fun part:
“Of course falsely accusing someone of rape is a crime, and false accusers should be punished. But what’s wrong with pointing out that the Duke Lacrosse players didn’t live like Trappist monks and made light of sexual violence? ‘Victims’ of false rape accusations aren’t innocent little victims if they act rapey.”
OR:
“Of course car-jacking is a crime, and the car-jacker should be punished. But what’s wrong with saying that if you drive a BMW, you are kind of asking for it to be stolen, perhaps at gunpoint? Owners of luxury cars aren’t innocent little victims if they tempt people by flashing their wealth.”
OR:
“Of course burglary is a crime, an the burglar should be punished. But what’s wrong with saying that if you live in a nice-looking house, that seems to indicate that you are financially secure and like having beautiful things around, you shouldn’t be surprised if it gets broken into and rainsacked? Homeowners should be held accountable for displaying their financial success.”
Now I ask you, Ion: How many people who will endorse that first statement without batting an eye would be outraged, absolutely outraged at the second, third and fourth? And why is that? All of these statements are based on the same principle: accountability for one’s own choices, even if the choices are legal and harm no one, while the “accountability” involves being the victim of a violent crime.
We hold a man’s liberty, home, car and Rolex to be sacred and inviolate, and we never characterize them as “understandable” temptations for a crime, no matter how attractive they may look to criminals. But when it comes to a woman’s body, all of a sudden, there is a myriad conditions that attaches to its integrity. No matter how well-meaning and reasonable you may believe yourself to be, your underlying assumptions is that women never truly possess any agency over their own bodies; that women’s bodies, by their very nature, are meant to be taken by men; that they are commodities which a priori belong to men who desire them, and that women who don’t want to be violated therefore bear the responsibility to safeguard the goods in such a way as to make them less desirable. And rape is seen as less of a crime against the woman than against the man who has a superior claim to her body: her boyfriend, her husband, her father, God, etc. You don’t need to confess anything to us: but examine your thoughts honestly, and you’ll see that THIS is the underpinning for your own, mild-sounding victim-blaming, which is absent from your analysis of other situations and other crimes. This is exactly what feminists mean when we talk about “rape culture” — not that every man is a rapist, but that the cultural notions justifying and rationalizing rape are very deeply rooted in the collective psyche: the perception of men being entitled to use attractive female bodies and treating the threat of rape is an acceptable means of restricting women’s liberty, holding women back from public life, economic independence and pursuing happiness in ways that are considered a man’s prerogative and inalienable right.