Great post by Ozymandias on her blog on the subject of “Who cares about men’s rights?” (Answer, Ozymandias, for one.) She offers a devastating critique of the Men’s Rights Movement and a critique of feminism I think I half-agree with as well. (She critiques feminists for not caring enough about men’s issues and responding to them with “but what about the menz” mockery; I think she’s got a point, but the fact is that lots of feminists do in fact work on behalf of men and men’s issues, from feminists involved in fighting for men and women falsely accused of sex crimes to feminist shelter workers who work on a regular basis to help male victims of abuse.)
Anyway, you should pop on over and read it.
It’s being discussed all over Reddit as well.
The post also inspired a debate on the old “chicks only want to date jerks” thing, which she’s broken out into a separate post.
EDITED TO ADD: And now The Spearhead has noticed the post.
Waitressing is considered less feminine? who knew? Being a retail clerk is considered less feminine?
Also, I have worked in retail/restaurant and other types of jobs like that and men had no problem being hired. They just could make more money across the street at the construction site (Arizona.)
“Waitressing is considered less feminine? who knew? Being a retail clerk is considered less feminine?”
And being a prostitute is also considered less feminine, who knew?
I’m serious there.
Actually that is a surprise Schala.
Falling into “want it all the time territory”, as prostitution is sometimes viewed, makes them equal to men, for many – thus not feminine at all.
This attitude is reflected in victim-blaming attitudes reserved for prostitutes and attitudes towards trans women as always being prostitutes (because they’re “really men” and thus “want it all the time”*).
*Blanchard and Bailey explicitly capitalize on this.
I literally have never heard that Schala. I do not know any transpeople outside of on here so I have no clue as to why anyone would expect a transgender would want to have sex all the time, any of the time, or none of the time.
I thought they would just be like everyone else-some would have high sex drives, some medium ones and others are asexual or low drives.
Read articles about trans women being found dead, and immediately assumed to be prostitutes, with their male names used and their transition over-emphasized.
And Blanchard assumes in his research that women can’t have fetishes, it’s “common sense”, so he dismisses all his patients with GID as “really men” since some get aroused while dressed as women. And ‘real women’ never find themselves sexy to the point of arousal you know…
Bailey went in strip clubs and with a sample of 12 trans women, decided that they were “especially suited for prostitution”, based on being assumed to have a liking meaningless sex, “like men do”. And be unable to form meaningful relationships (nothing to do with transphobia, mind you).
So you are blaming us for the fact that there are idiots out there? How is that helping anything?
I’m not blaming you, I’m saying prostitution is not considered feminine, and backed my argument why.
Since the first thing that pops into most human’s minds when you say “prostitute” is a woman this is an odd assertion for anyone to make.
The first article I found was very sad but makes no mention of her occupation.
We seem to have a different definition of what is feminine. Or masculine I suspect.
My brother Pierre looks masculine, not because he was assigned male at birth, but because he has visible facial hair and big muscled arms.
So it’s not evident that “some occupation is mostly done by women, therefore it increases status or perceived worthyness of women who do it”.
The assumption is that men want sex all the time, and women don’t really. So a man who tries to sell sex will not get a big market, unless he’s very very good looking or good in bed. That’s the perception anyways.
And “Johns” are sometimes perceived as losers who can’t woo women, therefore have to buy it, and women filling that niche, to make money.
Personally I think most of that is bull. But perception drives the market it seems.
Uh yes, but it still does not explain why being a prostitute is considered masculine. I mean it explains why you might think that (I guess.)
Wanting sex all the time IS considered masculine, but that’s an attitude, not a person. To the extent that this is applied to prostitution, they will be considered much less feminine, possibly more masculine, than other women.
It’s sort of like “less is more” natural make-up. It’s more feminine the less visible it is. If too visible or too clownesque, you pass for a drag queen, even if you have ovaries. And a drag queen is considered less feminine.
Actually I heard a trans guy using that ploy to pass as male, ingenious if a bit hard to find logic in it.
I also read a transgender fiction story called G11 Mistaken Identity, and the author did consider, in her writing, that girls (all underage in there) who put a more sexy and less gracious facade had less female souls than others. As if it was overcompensation for a lack of a sense of being female. At least that’s how I read it.
But the vast majority of prostitutes are not doing it for the sex. They are doing it for the money.
“Chairman’s aggressive pronouncements that transsexual women are really either (i) sex-obsessed gay men who are especially suited for prostitution, or else are (ii) sexually paraphilic men who are obsessed with fetishistic forms of masturbation. ”
From Lynn Conway’s site, speaking of J Michael Bailey, and what he wrote in his 2003 book, The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender-bending and Transsexualism.
See the ‘especially suited for prostitution’ is a pronouncement that even if you do it for the money, you don’t MIND the job as much. I worked as a tester for the money, but I liked the job, too. Too bad recession hit them badly.
Oh and a note to add:
Most journals who are the least bit sensationalist, including Le Journal de Montréal, the highest-selling Montréal daily newspaper – will speak of trans women by saying “transsexuel” in the masculine form. You know, as if trans women were seen as transsexual men. Which is probably the case in many ways, for those newspapers.
Irks me just more than a little, especially since they speak of trans women only once per 3 months, when one is outed to the press for doing something like modeling, sueing the government, or being in a known music group in the province.
Got the quote
“Gay transsexuals are boy crazy.” p. 178
” – – – her ability to enjoy emotionally meaningless sex appears male-typical. In this sense, homosexual transsexuals might be especially well-suited to prostitution.” p. 185
“Factory jobs usually pay minimum wage, with no tips and no union.” Not true. Even the lower end of the scale is slightly higher than minimum wage
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Assembly_Line_Worker,_Factory/Hourly_Rate
http://www.indeed.com/salary/Factory-Worker.html
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/factory-worker-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-factory+worker
The federal minimum wage is over a dollar an hour less than even the low end range of those figures
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/minimumwage.htm
Also, caretaking wages for childcare workers counts as an exempt category in many circumstances. The state pays about $3 and hour for private childcare workers (where the parents are income eligible). Not to mention the huge amounts of caretaking work that is flat out unpaid.
Look, it is a crap job market and no low income worker has it made. Yes, things like disability or trans status make it even harder. But the fact is that one average, wages for male dominated jobs in lower income communities are higher, and men have more average net worth within these communities. It doesn’t mean that poor men don’t still get the shit piled on them as poor people, but it does alter the motivations for spending money and time to get a degree. Yes, these are generalizations and there are factors that complicate these issues. For example, a young man who went to my highschool, a C student, was in a severe car crash that made him physically unfit for any sort of factory or construction labor. Immediately, the expectations from teachers and from community members took a 180. He was no longer expected to get a diploma and go to the factory, he was constantly pushed to go to college. They didn’t suddenly start thinking his tattooed self was feminine, what they started thinking was that an education was an absolutely necessity because he would not be able to work “a man’s job”.
On another note, it baffles me that you do not think transphobia is involved in the prostitution study you mention, as the “researcher” presumes trans women are gay men and that they are more like gay men than like women. The stereotypes of gay men as inherantly more woman-like are slipping in here, as are assumptions about gay men as sex workers. The homophobic assumption of gay male promiscuity also plays a role, as does the notion of gay male prostitution. The clients here are presumed to be gay men, not hetero men (as one would expect if one acknowledged trans women as women sex workers), or hetero women (as one might expect if one acknowledged that a homosexual transsexual woman is a lesbian). The transphobic assumption of trans woman as man does not posit her as a hetero man, it posits her as a gay man, and that assumption is loud and clear in those quotes. Honestly, are you reading that as a suggestion that lesbian trans women will have great success with hetero (or queer) women clients? Because that is absolutely not the impression it gives me. Face it, the stereotype of men who are sex workers is that they are all gay, with male clients. Look at the discussion of the first legal male prostitute in Nevada, his sexuality (he is hetero) comes up nearly every single time. The reason that men as prostitutes are given less flack for adopting a female profession is not so much about stereotypes about men’s sex drive as it is about them being perceived as gay-and gay men are often seen as “fit” for many feminine stereotyped professions (gay man as hairdresser, dress maker, nurse, etc.). Transphobia that posits trans women as men often then throws a big dose of homophobia at them as well.
David, I have a long, link heavy comment in moderation-just a heads up.
DSC, your comment is up now.
Schala, where are those quotes from? J. Michael BAiley?
We have this thing with our kids, once you are 15 you work at a job at least 15 hours a week and take care of your personal needs (clothing etc). Three out of four have worked at the same Burger King and they all enjoyed it.
Our youngest, a sixteen year old boy last month made 2500 in commissions through a sales job that I was very against him taking. If Burger King was good enough for you brother and sister as their first job….
Even today if you have a gift for gab and social skills you can make good money.
“Schala, where are those quotes from? J. Michael BAiley?”
From his 2003 book about bashing gay men and trans women.
“On another note, it baffles me that you do not think transphobia is involved in the prostitution study you mention, as the “researcher” presumes trans women are gay men and that they are more like gay men than like women.”
It’s not a study really, unless going into Chicago gay bars and speaking to trans women who work there as strippers is a study.
He presumes that maleness is something that can never be lost, amazingly aligning with radfems. He presumes that maleness predisposes to an attitude that meaningless sex is good.
“The stereotypes of gay men as inherantly more woman-like are slipping in here, as are assumptions about gay men as sex workers. The homophobic assumption of gay male promiscuity also plays a role, as does the notion of gay male prostitution. The clients here are presumed to be gay men, not hetero men (as one would expect if one acknowledged trans women as women sex workers), or hetero women (as one might expect if one acknowledged that a homosexual transsexual woman is a lesbian).”
Gay men as inherently NOT woman like, you mean. He makes a clear distinction, which is the old “women don’t like sex for it’s sake, but men do” and makes it into “if you like sex for its sake, then you must be a man”.
He does make a link to the gay male promiscuity assumption, except he assumes ALL men would do that, if only heterosexual women didn’t block heterosexual men from having sex every waking hour with gatekeeping.
The clients are not presumed to be gay men – he was a client, he strongly identifies as straight, and is married. He described one of the trans women in details that could rival erotica literature, obviously attracted to her, though he denies it a paragraph later.
By the way, this was a gay bar, so I’m not sure who goes there, besides gay men and trans women. And transphobic researchers. I’ve hardly gone in bars before.
“The transphobic assumption of trans woman as man does not posit her as a hetero man, it posits her as a gay man, and that assumption is loud and clear in those quotes.”
Yes, he posits her as really essentially a man, because it fits his ideology, yet he is still attracted, as a straight man. He wants to deny trans women an essential quality that only comes with being born with a vagina, that isn’t oppression (he’s not feminist, so he probably cares only marginally about that), but something about her inherent purity – that a male doesn’t have, comes tainted.
Add on this: http://www.princeton.edu/prok/issues/2-2/pink_frilly.xml
And you have the conservative reasons for transphobia: It hurts their own self-identification’s basis. Their own basis for finding worth in their sex. “Because its immutable, fixed, and certain (after this period of questioning it when 3-4)”
I’d say male prostitutes are perceived as gay because it is widely assumed that women don’t generally NEED prostitution to have sex. I can’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s widely perceived that women can get sex easily if they wanted, and that they want it less than men generally – which is probably faulty reasoning. Having more narrow standards doesn’t mean wanting it less.
Schala, I’m a bit confused as to the points you’re trying to make here. What little I know about J., Michael Bailey seems to suggest that his research is pretty much bullshit ( for a number of reasons), and seems to be based on a lot of old stereotypes about gay men and trans women, as well as some dumb assumptions about sexuality in general. So I think we agree on that.
But I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by bringing it up.
I agree that trans women prostitutes are probably seen by most people as basically being men (gay men) in drag.
And male prostitutes are perceived as gay, but I think that’s largely because most male prostitutes have male clients.
But when most people think of prostitutes, they think of cis women prostitutes, and see prostitution generally as a female profession.
Am I missing something here?
EDIT: clarified a few points.
Yes Bailey is an asshole, that’s pretty clear for most people who he researches, but apparently not the people that pay him or trust his bullshit views. He did make it ‘popular’ to say “Gay, straight, or lying” and denying bisexuality even exists in men.
My point was that people sometimes do think like he does, that prostitution = liking sex. Heck prostitutes might think that themselves genuinely, and that’s fine. The problem is when we associate “liking sex for it’s own sake = maleness”, and then “maleness = less feminity” or maleness and wanting it all the time = can’t be raped, you can only have thievery committed against you, or something.
It’s not that I agree with the attitude, but that it exists. Or maybe you have your own theory of why the general contempt, even by half of feminism, for sex workers.
@Schala, I would say that anti-sex worker feminists (different in scope than anti-trafficking feminists, because those are distinct issues, I am using sex worker here to refer to consenting adult workers) are anti-sex worker in a more paternalistic way. An anti-sex worker rad fem does not place the sex worker as the villain, but rather as the victim. The sex worker is viewed as being a slave (sometimes this is literally the term used). Look at these fairly recent statements by Catherine MacKinnon (not a fan personally, but she is a fairly big name in the rad fem circles) http://www.apneaap.org/news/media/pressreleases/oldpressreleases/prostitution-sexual-exploitation-not-work-catharine-mackin
It is a formulation that works fairly well in dealing with sex trafficking, particularly with child sex trafficking, but not with sex work. On the flip side, you have some third wavers who go overboard in the opposite direction-seeking to support sex workers so much that they ignore issues of trafficking and complicated economic and social realities around certain populations ability to find other gainful employment. Still, I think that saying rad fems hate sex workers is an oversimplification-they tend to oppose criminilization of sex workers and support very harsh penalties for clients, they tend to support access to therapy, shelters, etc. Yes, when dealing with consenting sex workers rather than trafficking victims, this can involve paternalism and denial of agency, which is a problem, but it is not really accurate to say that anti-sex work feminists view sex workers as deserving of contempt.
As to trans women in gay bars, that really doesn’t happen, at least not if you are defining gay bar in the narrow sense (sometimes “gay bar” refers to all LGBT bars, sometimes it refers to only gay men’s bars). Gay bars, dyke bars, trans bars, queer bars-in some rural areas these may all be the same building, but in urban spaces that is often not the case. Trans women are rare in gay specific bars, and relationships between gay men and trans women are not overly common in western countries. I would presume that an establishment that routinely has trans women strippers is likely not a gay bar, but rather a trans or queer bar. While I am not very surprised that a homophobic transphobic researcher fails to point out the complexities of LGBT/queer spaces, but I suspect he probably knows the difference between a space where trans women go to meet cis men and a place where queer men go to meet queer men. My suspicion would be that this is not a gay bar at all, or even a mixed space queer bar, but rather a trans specific space that doesn’t much involve gay men at all.
It is difficult for me to speak as to this specific writer’s brand of gender theory, but I think I am getting a good idea of what type he is. Purity, intense sexual desire, etc. are not masculine per se in this view, but rather they are not the realm of “good girls”. The virgin-whore dicotomy is invoked in an intensely literal way. Trans women and gay men therefore are seen as making “good” whores because they are bad girls by default. It is not that promiscuity is the sole realm of the masculine, it is that feminine promiscuity is seen as at once powerful and threatening and distinct in character from masculine promiscuity. As odd as that idea may seem, I think it is one borne out historically as well:
“Only during the enlightenment does the image of the syphilitic shift from male to female, and with this shift comes anohter: from victim to source of infection. Already in the high Middle Ages, woman was shown as both seductive and physically corrupt….Female beauty only serves as a mask for corruption and death…” (from Sander L. Gilman’s excellent piece “The Iconography of Disease” 1988).
The “fallen” woman, the “filthy slut”, the “ruined woman”, to be “despoiled”, “pure virgin”, “sexual purity”-sexuality outside of restrictive traditional hetero marriage is seen as dirtying and corrupt only for feminine sexualities, not masculine ones. It is because gay men and trans women’s sexualities are seen as not masculine that their promiscuity is seen as dirtying them, as “turning them into whores”.
Damn, that is one long essay….sorry for that.