Great post by Ozymandias on her blog on the subject of “Who cares about men’s rights?” (Answer, Ozymandias, for one.) She offers a devastating critique of the Men’s Rights Movement and a critique of feminism I think I half-agree with as well. (She critiques feminists for not caring enough about men’s issues and responding to them with “but what about the menz” mockery; I think she’s got a point, but the fact is that lots of feminists do in fact work on behalf of men and men’s issues, from feminists involved in fighting for men and women falsely accused of sex crimes to feminist shelter workers who work on a regular basis to help male victims of abuse.)
Anyway, you should pop on over and read it.
It’s being discussed all over Reddit as well.
The post also inspired a debate on the old “chicks only want to date jerks” thing, which she’s broken out into a separate post.
EDITED TO ADD: And now The Spearhead has noticed the post.
Yeah I noticed once they found her photos they completely lost focus o_o;;; And also became all about judging and examining her body and making extrapolations >_<;;; I hope she's taking it ok 😐
@Ami Angelwings: That was massively creepy, wasn’t it? Like, if you hate her so much, what the fuck does it matter if you do or do not find her attractive? Why should she care about your opinion? You hate her, you wouldn’t sleep with her, so… why does your opinion of her appearance have any bearing on the argument?
I felt like reading those comments that many of them DID find her attractive and that f-ed w/ their heads, so they desperately were trying to break her down so that it would fit w/ their worldview (and their need to imagine every feminist and person they disagree w/ is somebody ugly and bitter, or somebody who they dun want to be w/ since everything w/ these ppl seem to revolve around who’s having sex w/ who xD )
Lets dissect your Ozzy’s version of care.
The first two paragraphs talk about men being able to dress and act more like women. Men and women are different; however being like a woman must therefore be better.
Next are college admissions; for all the talk about Title IX being about gender equality things keep getting worse.
Next you cite the all too often debunked wage myth, bravo.
If you cared about men being rape survivors you’d give up half the funds garnished by women. Also women are only given the sexual misconduct label for that offense.
Women won’t accept a stay at home dad; he’s worthless. Men do care for children. You speak as if men do nothing. Why? Why do you assume this?
On DV, see VAWA and the power and control wheel. Admit women commit non-reciprocal DV at a rate of 2 to 1. Men don’t hit back because by your law men are always the primary aggressor. Men go to jail for defending themselves.
The reason why jobs are overseas is due to quotas. When women are given made up jobs in human resources with the fast track to higher pay while men still do virtually all the manual labor this adds a huge cost to our products. We can’t compete due to fake jobs.
Women would scream bloody murder if they had to register for the draft.
If you cared about men’s health then turn 5 of the 10 federally funded women’s health departments men’s, since there are 0 for men. Instead of women receiving health care at a rate of 2 to 1 over men reverse that number and close the mortality rate so men and women live the same amount of time.
Men are virgin shamed by women. Women offer only casual sex, loyalty by feminist definition means male ownership. Women desire men in power. Women demand to be pedastalized.
Singing, dancing, acting and romance novels allowing men to be more like women, hooray.
Men are too stupid to even know how to cook, clean and do their own laundry.
Women cry and lie for men to stick up for them, they loved when they can get men to fight for their entertainment. Cheerleaders of death in war and of brutality in social situations.
Actions of course speak louder then words. As far as I can tell you’re quite happy with the current status and seem to care only about men becoming more like women, because woman equals perfection.
NWO:
I’ma keep this short, cause Ozzy can speak for herself… But…
“The first two paragraphs talk about men being able to dress and act more like women. Men and women are different; however being like a woman must therefore be better.”
No. No, no and no. Haven’t you heard of feminists sticking up for women who don’t want to confine themselves to gender roles? For the most part, that means acting more manly. The corresponding side is men who want to act more womenly, and not confining themselves to the strict “sports beer and pussy” mentality of men. Its a focus on allowing people to act and dress the way they want to, not the way they are expected to.
“And in terms of percentage of men goin to college–I’d really like to see a breakdown in terms of demographics, and for people to take into account that on average in the US women need a college degree to earn what men do with a high school degree. Note: on average.”
Yes, this. Women with a high school degree are likely to find a minimum-wage job: childcare, for example, or waitressing, cleaning, cashiering. (If waitressing, they’re more likely to get hired at a lower-end restaurant, since more expensive restaurants generally hire men.) Men with high school degrees can more easily get hired to do construction and higher-paying jobs.
And, I’ve done some googling on this in the past (though I don’t have the figures in front of me). The thing that really bothers me about the complaint that men are going to college in lower numbers than women is that the effected populations — the guys who aren’t going to college — typically are not the guys who are doing the complaining about the gender gap. If you compare white, middle- and upper-class men to white, middle- and upper-class women, the male students are edging out their female counterparts in terms of college degrees. The gender gap is entirely based on more women than men attending college from poor rural populations, racial minorities, and non-traditional age groups.
Which is something that the MRM will never admit to because they want the focus to be on Men Like Them (which is to say, white, middle-class men), and not on black, Hispanic, and native American men (because then — gasp, affirmative action, or some horror). It’s a not-very-well-kept secret that the MRM does NOT care about men at all. Otherwise, why the dissembling? Why not say, We really need to do something to help minority men get better educations, instead of their actual rallying cry, It’s not fair that there’s no scholarships for white men!
I’m all for supporting at-risk communities and minority populations. I’m actually rather sick of (some) white men trying to appropriate oppression that, frankly, doesn’t affect them.
NWO, Ozy is talking about trying to change some of waht you are talking about. Some of waht you are talking about is just nonsense. Come on.
“The first two paragraphs talk about men being able to dress and act more like women. Men and women are different; however being like a woman must therefore be better.”
Actually, in mainstream culture it’s the traditionally feminine that’s denigrated. That’s why it’s so difficult for men to cross gender boundaries, but relatively easy for women to do so.
“Next are college admissions; for all the talk about Title IX being about gender equality things keep getting worse.”
This is what Ozy is talking about trying to fix? I mean, she’s not caliming to have any solutions, she’s saying we should be looking for them!
“Next you cite the all too often debunked wage myth, bravo.”
Well, but she also talks about men’s wages stagnating. Which I don’t really know much about, but… that should make you happy, right? Looking at men’s problems?
“If you cared about men being rape survivors you’d give up half the funds garnished by women. Also women are only given the sexual misconduct label for that offense.”
WHAT IS THIS I DON’T EVEN KNOW! I mean, seriously! What does this even mean?!?
“Women won’t accept a stay at home dad; he’s worthless. Men do care for children. You speak as if men do nothing. Why? Why do you assume this?”
My dad’s a stay at home dad! My mom love’s and respect’s and appreciates him very much, as do I. And no one thinks men do absolutely no childcare. But they do do less. And I think we’d all like to see them able to do more, because taking care of your children is a great thing!
“On DV, see VAWA and the power and control wheel. Admit women commit non-reciprocal DV at a rate of 2 to 1. Men don’t hit back because by your law men are always the primary aggressor. Men go to jail for defending themselves.”
Any sources for this? Because I do not believe. Just flat out, I think this is false.
“The reason why jobs are overseas is due to quotas. When women are given made up jobs in human resources with the fast track to higher pay while men still do virtually all the manual labor this adds a huge cost to our products. We can’t compete due to fake jobs.”
This is not how that works. The reasons jobs are overseas are complicated. But not because women are being given falsely inflated jobs, that’s for sure. Of the top 500 publicly traded companies in the US, only 13 have female CEOs.
“Women would scream bloody murder if they had to register for the draft.”
I think there should be gender parity in the draft.
“If you cared about men’s health then turn 5 of the 10 federally funded women’s health departments men’s, since there are 0 for men. Instead of women receiving health care at a rate of 2 to 1 over men reverse that number and close the mortality rate so men and women live the same amount of time.”
Cite this please? Though, I do beleive you that there are women’s health centerss and no men’s health center. But this is because historically men’s health was mainstream health, and women were not being properly taken care of. Is this still the case? I don’t really know. This is what Ozy is talking about trying to fix!
“Men are virgin shamed by women. Women offer only casual sex, loyalty by feminist definition means male ownership. Women desire men in power. Women demand to be pedastalized.”
Pedastalized is not a word. But I do not want to be put on a pedestal. I offer many things besides caual sex, though I offer that, too. But I’m a rarity, I think. I’m under the impression that most women don’t really have casual sex. And both men and women suffer from weird sex pressure in our culture. This is waht feminism wants to fix!
“Singing, dancing, acting and romance novels allowing men to be more like women, hooray.”
What? Honestly? What?
“Men are too stupid to even know how to cook, clean and do their own laundry.”
No said this but you. My dad does all this for the whole family!
“Women cry and lie for men to stick up for them, they loved when they can get men to fight for their entertainment. Cheerleaders of death in war and of brutality in social situations.”
I don’t really know anyone who does this. All the women I know stand up for themselves.
“Actions of course speak louder then words. As far as I can tell you’re quite happy with the current status and seem to care only about men becoming more like women, because woman equals perfection.”
You are the only person who says this, man. No one here but you thinks women are perfect. And we all really, really want to change the current status!
And, Ozy You have a lovely arse. =3
Personally if you people want to help the MRM , you can go to one of these places. They both do some good work:
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/
http://ncfm.org/
Oh my god. I just actually read the comments in the Spearhead post, and I want to smack those ignorant fucks for the stupid, hateful things they’re saying about Ozy!
Do they have no idea how real women act and work? AT ALL?!?
Man. Ozy, you are gorgeous and I love your blog, and don’t let stupid poopy-heads get you down.
Sarah
When every TV show, movie, advert, magazine, billboard, radio, all forms of mass media potray women as brilliant, sexy and competant, while at the same time potraying men as violent, idiot buffoons, I missing the part about mainstream culture denigrating women.
The college fix is easy , bye-bye Title IX.
If she cares about mens wages why propogate the myth yet again? Victimology of course,women can only be victims of bad men.
Male teachers who have sex with underage girls are called rapists by law, women who have sex with underage boys is called sexual misconduct. Basically they’ve comitted a very small offense by law.
Again you say men do less child care. Earning money, house/lawn care, horseplay, ect are all indirectly a part of childcare. No credit is given.
Here I’ll give you a source. http://theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PhyVio.pdf
Now read your power and control wheel and tell me how a man who so much as disagrees with woman has not committed DV.
Thats exactly how jobs work, the State enforces a system which makes us uncompetitive. As far as the super-rich jobs goes, those jobs aren’t handed out, well they soon will be as we begin to follow the Norway model of communist equality.
Historically men were given better health care? Not in my lifetime or your’s. How many centuries are you going back?
pedastalized is a word, being put on a pedastal. Where all forms of media, Government and education put women.
A quote from Ozzy’s post, “I care that no one fucking teaches male college students how to do laundry and clean their rooms and cook, as if they’re not going to have to do that ever. ”
As in men are to stupid to do these things. Pretty self evident.
Of course you know women who’ve done this. Women love men fighting over them and for them. Didn’t you find it romantic when Troy fought for the face that launched a thousand ships. Don’t worry, it’s only men that died for her.
Ozzy devolving down to her base animal instinct. Look at me, look at me men. I’m trying to attract as many as I can by showing pictures of my naked self. She cares, HAHAHA.
Title IV is about equality, the pamphlet you linked to isn’t a source, doesn’t prove anything and describes actual abuse,I don’t think Troy is romantic and pedastalized is definitely not a word. I double-checked. Pedestaled is, but it dosen’t mean what you want it to. (I love looking words up.)
And I thought that Ami told you we were all going off of our acidic, plant instincts now?
You are really dumb.
@Sarah Actually, in mainstream culture it’s the traditionally feminine that’s denigrated. That’s why it’s so difficult for men to cross gender boundaries, but relatively easy for women to do so.
Exactly -_-;; I wasn’t beaten up and bullied every day as a child cuz I was embodying “superior” traits and boys were jealous of me or something -_-;; It was cuz it was seen as weak, and gross and “effeminate” and adults were okay w/ that b/c “boys will be boys” and I needed to “suck it up” and “man up”, “toughen up” etc etc >:| And it happened w/ my gay friend too… And it happens to a LOT of boys, not just trans girls or gay guys, and that’s part of what Ozy was saying, and that I’ve been writing about for a long time (and so many others) too : It’s the intersection of seeing traits our society deems as “feminine” or related to “female” as weak, lesser, etc (which w/ those perceived as female turns into protection and condescension whether you like it or not, like girls being banned from bodychecking in hockey even when as grown women they want it, while boys are pushed into it as young kids even if they dun want it) with the idea of men needing to accept violence from other men, that violence is good for boys, that boys shouldn’t cry (or those perceived by society to be boys), etc etc etc… and no the solution isn’t some kind of reverse like ppl who straw feminism seem to believe xD It’s the idea that societal attitudes should not be gender policing and treating ppl like INDIVIDUALS instead of perceived gender and being okay with boys crying like they are w/ girls crying, and not needing to push girls and boys to extremes (the defense for checking in house league hockey is that “they’re not girls” and “if you treat them like girls they’ll be pansies” and “boys need to learn how to suck it up and not be weak like girls” etc etc, if girls CAN check, or boys have a choice NOT to, then that distinction will be gone, and I think a LOT of ppl need that, and need these sexist narratives) : And it’s not typically women, and definitely not feminists (feminists that care about sports, like me, and some of the comms I’m in are HUGE against this) that are pushing for boys to take body injury and head injuries at a young age : This is why that despite my qualms with some of Ozy’s post, I rly support what she’s trying to do and I hope ppl listen up. :]
““Men are too stupid to even know how to cook, clean and do their own laundry.”
No said this but you. My dad does all this for the whole family!”
Mainstream publicity, and sitcoms, very much present men this way though.
Homer Simpson being only the ur (and very very obvious) example. Seeing as he’s stupid (Groening said his IQ was supposedly 55 – though he has insightful thoughts, sometimes), lazy, and incompetent to an extreme level, even in his more ‘manly’ pursuits. He’s also shown to actually burn anything he cooks or prepares, even cereals.
To be fair, Marge is presented as generally neurotic (shown to be bored to death if she can’t do house chores, feels she HAS to participate in school bakery, has extremely outdated ideas in some domains – especially religious, and wants Maggie to physically not be independent from her, or she feels useless) and obsessed about certain things, including being the supposed moral center of the family, and forcing the rest to go to church against their will.
At the end of the day, much comfort can be derived from the fact that Ozy gets to keep being Ozy, whereas NWO has to go on being NWO. Independent of gender, it’s obvious who has more fun.
“(the defense for checking in house league hockey is that “they’re not girls” and “if you treat them like girls they’ll be pansies” and “boys need to learn how to suck it up and not be weak like girls” etc etc, if girls CAN check, or boys have a choice ”
There’s always many ways to see that.
It can be a “girls are weak, thus bad”, or “boys NEED to be strong, or else they are useless losers, and not worth protecting, unlike girls”. It can also, ironically, be both, depending on people.
I think the hatred of feminity in men stems from the latter, and hatred of women period stems from the former. Men who want to protect their female relatives may seem them as unable to protect themselves, but they generally don’t hate them, they think they are worth that protection – something they won’t think of their male relatives, as a matter of course (it might happen but “protect everyone who is too weak to defend” is not as widespread as “protect girls”).
Ah another Gish Gallop XD Also apparently somebody has a V chip in their TV (and eyes I guess) xD
MY animal nature includes spines! >:3 And laser beam eyes xD
These are all things (the ones that are true neways xD) Ozy is against, and I’m against, and Sarah’s against and prolly most ppl here… but definitely a lot of feminists (read Shakesville lately? I can Gish Gallop too! xD ) but you dun ACTUALLY want to change them, cuz when Ozy suggests changing them you whine that then men and women will be the same (no they wun, b/c men and women are individuals xD ) And then you make general statements related to the distant past….
Now I’m amused… apparently I watch all the sports I do (b/c I’m a huge sports nut :3 ) b/c I love seeing men hurt each other… like horse racing! xD And baseball! Back in the day, while men fought each other for women’s affection, women gathered around the fire and talked about which men had the better OPS and whether it could be sustained with such a high BABIP xDDD And women’s soccer and hockey! xD And it’s SO fun when talented players like Lindros or Crosby get injured cuz… y’know… who likes watching star talent actually PLAY? XD Not spiny lasery Ami! *grows wings* :O New evolution! XD
@Schala actually the latter is how the former manifests when it comes to men, but I hardly hear, esp w/n hockey culture about men being “useless”. In FACT the argument has been made, when the debate was going on in Toronto, and before that in Ottawa about who should get the ice rinks, that girls should not get any ice time, or not preferential time, b/c boys are the ones who have the worth in hockey, and will be making the NHL, and that girls were “worthless”. Somebody even talked about how if we gave girls ice time in the past, we might not have had Paul Henderson and then we’d have lost 72 xD (which made me laugh xD ) So much of the discussion around the headshot issue, is about how boys need this stuff, how it helps them, and is good for them, and the benevolent sexism of “oh girls are different, and softer and should be protected”. It’s not “boys suck, that’s why we make them play hockey”… esp not in Canada where hockey is our beloved national pride andw here you hear all the time “checking and fighting are part of hockey”. On a sports radio show, a host fighting against this attittude (I love him <3 ) was talking about what if there WASN'T checking in pro hockey for men at all… and somebody said that'd be like women and "it wouldn't be hockey" and that there'd be no glory. It's not men as disposable… or disrespected. Altho the idea that men need to be willing to shorten their lives in order to BE respected even if they don't WANT to (Andrew Ference, Mario Lemieux, etc are now speaking out against this even in pro hockey, but then you get the usual Don Cherry types) is something that is what Ozy is talking about, YOU are talking about and I am. :] Just like women can be hurt by benevolent sexism, so can men, it isn't just as simple as we hate men, so we want them to get headshots o_O;; And both dynamics relate to each other, intertwine and manifest differently. But it isn't "we hate men, and the feminist conspiracy enjoys watching men get hurt" like a letter in the Toronto Star actually suggested recently XD Ami's Razor and all that :3
Either way, however you look at it, we both agree on what needs to be done and that that attitude needs to be fought :] I think getting rid of the pedestal women are on and the self-flagellation that sometimes goes on w/ manhood and ideas of “masculinity” could rly help too like you said :] We need more ppl like us, and Ozy which is why I’m glad her thing is going viral :]
“It’s not “boys suck, that’s why we make them play hockey””
It’s more of a boys suck if they’re not super good at hockey. If they’re physically weak for example, or not coordinated enough. Or plain don’t like playing that or any organized/team sport.
It’s more of a “it’s the only thing they’re good for” (being strong, competitive etc) which also means that if they’re NOT good at that, they suck. And also a corollary to them only having value in action, as opposed to having value in looks (which is more ‘ just there’ – certainly, I don’t invest much time or money in my looks, and could still get praise for it).
Isn’t being the star athlete a way for the guy to ‘prove his worth’ to everyone, including women? So some might wonder why a girl would do it seriously, since it’s much less likely to impress men in general. It will certainly impress some regardless, just like a male nurse will impress some women.
That wasn’t what we were talking about tho o_O
I think it’s way more complicated than that, but this is more of a discussion thingie that we should be having on email if you want to. :] Or on IM or something…
But again what you’re talking about is exactly what Ozy and me are talking about and trying to fight :] (and have been fighting)
You get the first form (hatred of women) in the attitude that ringuette and flag football are “too easy” for men. But this also kills mainstream interest in the sport.
The LPGA in my opinion, has no reason for existing separate from the PGA, and until men and women play in the same league (and not just Michelle Wie), then it will still be seen as lesser and not worth seeing it, and paid less, for the women’s league.
And let’s be serious, golf as a sport can be played, and won, by 70 years old men with osteoporosis, so strength difference doesn’t matter. Sports where strength does matter have men quit at 35. It’s sort of like chess.
The women’s titles are much much less prestigious (and have much lesser requirements) and this is compounded by the fact that men are not advantaged at all in any way, in chess. There might be a misogynist attitude in chess, but creating separate titles for women only made it worst by creating a “pink ghetto”.
Heard the same about poker.
I hate to defend Slavey on any point but “pedestalized” seems like a perfectly valid neologism. It’s an unattractive word, sure, but a lot of existing words are ugly (“blog”, anyone?). Language changes and I don’t necessarily have a problem with creating new words.
That said…
The men portrayed that way are generally the stars. Buffoonish sitcom husbands, for example, are usually famous comedians building off their existing personae. Their wives, by contrast, are generally casted on their attractiveness. And sure, they’re the more normal and down to earth of the two but they’re also played as boring sticks-in-the-mud. They’re little more than the foils for the more entertaining male characters.
The light treatment of female teachers who sexually abuse their students is deplorable. However, it stems from a sexist culture that says males want sex all the time. In that kind of climate, a male victim is an unthinkable concept. Most feminists would like to do away with that attitude. Sexual relationships should be built around consent, not stereotypes based on the genders, clothing, or past sexual histories of the people involved.
Um, no, that’s not what it says. She’s saying our culture teaches women to do those things but not men. God, you’re dumb. Are you even capable of dressing yourself in the morning?
I think you missed the point of the Trojan War.
Do you also have a problem with nude portraiture in art? I draw/paint naked people whenever I get the chance. It’s not necessarily sexual, it can be a celebration of the human form.
I’d be fine with IMs. My email is also my yahoo messenger’s ID.
Personally out of neologism, I hate “twit”. Since it’s a word that already existed, which more or less meant being generally stupid or doing something idiotic. People in Jackass videos would be twits.
Actually w/ the LPGA thing, that WOULD work except you’d have to redesign the golf courses to have more narrow fairways and less straghtaways, b/c right now even the male golfers are having trouble keeping up w/ the way the game has changed to favour the long drives. : The change in strength makes a huge difference, even on the senior tour (where it’s widely known that a 50 year old has a huge advantage over a 55 and both more than a 60 y/o, the differences in how far you can drive the ball is big… ) Golf doesn’t take much activity but the sport has changed so much, and so has the sporting science behind developing golfers and their bodies that, you’d have to start changing the courses. (I’ve heard this discussed even in terms of just men’s golf b/c of how many amateurs and pros are falling behind on the way the courses are now designed) I think it’s a rly interesting debate that could be had 🙂
My issue w/ the LPGA (which would be solved w/ more creative management, and also if they did what you suggest) is right now the racism, and the mandatory language tests in order to keep out the Asian golfers (from Asia) who are dominating it and some of the white players even saying that their names are hard to pronounce and they should be given “cute nicknames” -_-;;
What I find interesting is the automatic need to divide the genders in all sports o_O I was reading about Professional Sauna and it’s so interesting (actually the whole chapter was rly interesting :] Rick Reilly’s book “Sports from Hell” if nebody’s interested :3 They talk about women’s pro football too :] ) how the women are actually BETTER than the men (which actually as my friend said, makes sense, since it’s about heat tolerance, endurance and pain, it’s a brutal sport -_- ppl almost die, it’s frightening, it’s literally an oven at over 100C) but had their own division b/c they thought women wouldn’t have a chance against the men (rather than the reverse) but now they are talking about opening it up. :] But it’s interesting how the divisions happen automatically rather than b/c of what actually happens. 😮