Great post by Ozymandias on her blog on the subject of “Who cares about men’s rights?” (Answer, Ozymandias, for one.) She offers a devastating critique of the Men’s Rights Movement and a critique of feminism I think I half-agree with as well. (She critiques feminists for not caring enough about men’s issues and responding to them with “but what about the menz” mockery; I think she’s got a point, but the fact is that lots of feminists do in fact work on behalf of men and men’s issues, from feminists involved in fighting for men and women falsely accused of sex crimes to feminist shelter workers who work on a regular basis to help male victims of abuse.)
Anyway, you should pop on over and read it.
It’s being discussed all over Reddit as well.
The post also inspired a debate on the old “chicks only want to date jerks” thing, which she’s broken out into a separate post.
EDITED TO ADD: And now The Spearhead has noticed the post.
I dun think that’s fair either speedlines. obv this is a v sore and important thing for her Hippodameia… : Maybe we should let them hash it out since Ozymandias is the one who made the joke and HIppodameia is the one who finds it offensive :] Not everybody has to be okay w/ every joke that others might be ok w/ either.
Thank you, Ami. I appreciate it.
XD
*sigh* Ok, Hippodameia, point taken. Quite honestly there isn’t much that triggers me or is a sore spot, so I find it difficult to empathize with people who do have strong reactions. I also don’t want to get into the position of speaking for Ozymandias, since its not fair to either of you and is just bad form. So, go at it I guess, just don’t hate each other afterwords. I hate to see friends fighting. 🙁
Thank you, kirbywarp.
Honestly, the reference makes me uncomfortable too. No matter how self-aware or jokey it’s supposed to be. And as I said, not everybody has to be okay w/ stuff just b/c other ppl dun see the problem : Nor does it mean that you’re a bad person if you don’t see a problem that others do… but they do have the right to be offended and to think it is a big deal, and that might also mean that we get judged for that. : But that’s like.. one of the things about having an opinion xD There’s nothing wrong with disagreement and sometimes there’s no resolution b/c two ppl see things v differently : I mean we all are here for different reasons presumably and have different politics and ideologies, backgrounds and experiences. When the subject veers off what we DO agree on (how ridic for example, the ppl wishing for the apocalyptic gender war, are) this is prolly going to happen… and it MIGHT not be resolvable if 2 ppl just feel very differently about something. We’re not a hive mind. (despite what some may think xD )
I’m worried I kinda wasn’t clear up there about something xD I meant that some ppl might not see something as problematic while other ppl will… I thought the way I wrote it implied that I was saying definitively who is right and wrong, and I didn’t mean that :
Haven’t you heard, Ami? It’s a hive vagina now! No doubt information is passed around through all those evil wymynz lesbian orgies. How dare women hook up when men are already so sex starved?!?!?
XD Wait until we perfect the wireless vaginal wave technology!
Vaginal wave technology…. is it activated by kegels?
That sounds like a unit of measurement of those waves xD KPM? Kegels Per Minute? xD
Hippodameia
The Von Braun reference, as Ozy has said, was not a serious comparison of feminists to Nazis. It was a reference to a satirical song by Tom Lehrer. A bit of an obscure reference, and clearly not many people got it (I didn’t get it until Ozy mentioned Lehrer and I googled the phrase she quoted from the song.) But that’s what it was, a reference to a satirical song (by a Jewish songwriter who was was reacting to Von Braun being allowed to work in the US).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lehrer
The lyrics to the song Ozy was referring to::
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/wernherv.htm
The song:
The argument against the MM is a strawman argument, and an appropriation attempt.
The author says they care about men’s rights, lists off a number of mens right issues that have been brought to attention by MRAs despite feminist attempts of suppression, then tries to claim them as feminist issues and then dishonestly and in the style of manboobs and marcotte mischaracterizes the MM as having “all women are evil” and “women prefer jerks” as central issues, when in reality thats just the fringe and pua’s.
Of course the feminist peanut gallery applauds, oblivious to the fact that its just a recycled strawman argument.
The mens movement is still awaiting a valid-counterargument, that strawman and the other one, false accusations of abuse and rape, aren’t cutting it.
Hey, I got the Tom Lehrer ref. But I’m old.
Hiya Smith,
I’m gonna ask this, which is what David usually asks newly arrived MR advocates. If “actual” MR arguments have not been addressed, only fringe groups, could you link to a website you think accurately portrays the true MRM? Cause otherwise? These are real MRAs, with real MRA arguments, all very well liked (upvoted) by the community, and your claims of straw-manning won’t stick.
That’s assuming, of course, that “Smith” isn’t just a drive-by troll, and that we’ll actually be seeing him again. Because the savage irony of having drive-by trolls claim that we’re attacking a straw-man MRM is that the very act of drive-by trolling demonstrates that, yes, the MRAs David quotes really are representative of the MRM as a whole. These are the MRAs we’re looking for.
Hiya Kirbywarp
I wont be talking your goal setting at face value today and sneering users at Manboobz don’t get to set the bars in this debate as like the loons that manboobz quotes, they are among the most counter productive involved. Also responding with a fallacious argument to defend a charge of making fallacious arguments doesn’t do much to help with your case.
Here is a good article on the lack of a feminist counter argument, for you.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/06/04/where-is-the-counter-argument/
I’m a bit late to this thread.
I missed three Slavey posts.
Works for me.
Hmph. I linked to the song. Not my fault if people don’t click on links. 🙂
I do have a very dark sense of humor, though, which many people don’t find funny and I apologize for offending Hippideima and to anyone else I offended.
ozymandias
If you are aping marcotte and manboobz non-arguments by reducing the mens movement to some of the clowns on spearhead and mgtow, aren’t you being as counter productive as them?
Also, most of the thinks that you say you care about that affect men, you only care about because the mens movement has been informing about them for years now. So it looks like there is some cognitive dissonance in your argument too?
I think people are reading past each other? I think the conversation was intended to go like this:
H: Ack, a comparison that makes it seem like feminists are nazis who use technicalities to pretend they don’t care about killing people!
O: …eep. Yeah, good point. I just wanted to quote something because it seemed funny. I probably shouldn’t have godwinned accidentally. Sorry.
H: It’s still pretty offensive.
O: Not denying that, but sort of hoping you’ll take my apology and we can move on.
(FTR, I find the comparison exceedingly obnoxious–not quite as bad as Bachmann’s “taxes on the rich are like the holocaust!”–but I’m willing to take “oh, right, wasn’t thinking about it that way… got carried away with wanting to quote something I like. Sorry,” as canceling it out.)
***
For a long time, I’ve thought there needs to be an MRM led by male feminists. I actually think Alas, a Blog would be a good place to start laying down philosophies of that movement (though I would probably stop moderating/posting and focus on commenting/supporting), since some of the men’s voices there are devastatingly intelligent and insightful on men’s issues–Ampersand, Richard Jeffrey Newman, Myca, Jeff Fecke (though it’s not always his preferred topic)… Add in people like Hugo Schwyzer… I think there could be something really amazing there.
The guys I’ve talked to about it (the first three, if I recall) say they really don’t have time to formally take on the mantle of something like that. But hopefully eventually some effort like it (I know there have been several) will take off and really establish a thoughtful, intelligent men’s rights movement.
Ack, a comparison that makes it seem like feminists are nazis who use technicalities to pretend they don’t care about killing people! — this should read “use technicalities to pretend they aren’t responsible for killing people.”
Hey Kirbywarp, in case ya didn’t know if a man diddles a little boy or a woman diddles a little girl that means their either gay, lebian, bi or whatever letter you want to attach to your all inclusive hate movement. NAMBLA, NAWGLA, and butterfly kisses are proponenets of legalized pedophelia and guess what? They’re gays, lesbians and bi, all your faction whom you love and support.
Come now ozzy, Title IX is gender equality? So when Title IX mandates men having to take the “she fears you” indoctrination before being admitted into college, where men are told they’re basically scum. Is that the equality thing at work? Or perhaps Title IX now being it’s own police force above the law, where if a woman says sexual harrassment the kangaroo jury reads a paper on “why men are controlling” before rendering a verdict. Maybe it’s the placing women in STEM classes reguardless of qualifications…well woman being the qualification.
Is it AA that demands a percentage of women employees in high positions. Or women being mandated having a percentage of employment within a company or the State will shut them down or they can’t gain State contracts, so jobs are invented out of thin air to meet the qouta, not dirty and dangerous jobs, oh no no no. Jobs that are the fast track to higher pay, that cost is transferred to the general public of course. Or the military where once again women rarely see combat but get the fast track jobs.
Is it where divorce women make out like bandits? Is it where fathers children are kidnapped by women and the State and if they lose there job they go to jail because theres no excuse not to pay, (see bradley ammendment). Each State recieve millions of dollars from the Fed to incarcerate these unemployed men. Their own taxes that they’ve paid are used to jail them.
Is it where a man doesn’t have the right to a living child? Is it where if an unmarried man and woman have a child she can give the child away for adoption? Is it VAWA where a man is always wrong and if he disagrees that he’s not wrong he has committed DV, (see power and contol wheel). Is it where women recieve far less punishment than a man for crimes committed, if they’re punished at all. Is it international CEDAW but no CEDAM? Is it the myriad of UN/US sponsored womens only organisations that help women. Is it the new UN/US policy of relief where only women recieve food, (see haiti). Only men died of starvation or suffered malnutrition, where as before when men recieved the food no one starved.
Tell me again how feminism helps men? Oh yea thats right, by allowing men to not be branded for crying like spoiled children in public. Or prasing the LGBTQ. Or maybe men can wear pretty ballgowns and make up and not be mocked. Whoa, I see how great your cause is now. Gee where do I sign to join up?
NWO a genuine men’s movement has no use for people as willfully obtuse and/or dishonest as yourself.
NWO really, really has no idea what Title IX is, does he?
Name my dishonesty CB.