Great post by Ozymandias on her blog on the subject of “Who cares about men’s rights?” (Answer, Ozymandias, for one.) She offers a devastating critique of the Men’s Rights Movement and a critique of feminism I think I half-agree with as well. (She critiques feminists for not caring enough about men’s issues and responding to them with “but what about the menz” mockery; I think she’s got a point, but the fact is that lots of feminists do in fact work on behalf of men and men’s issues, from feminists involved in fighting for men and women falsely accused of sex crimes to feminist shelter workers who work on a regular basis to help male victims of abuse.)
Anyway, you should pop on over and read it.
It’s being discussed all over Reddit as well.
The post also inspired a debate on the old “chicks only want to date jerks” thing, which she’s broken out into a separate post.
EDITED TO ADD: And now The Spearhead has noticed the post.
The city council of Glendale might be up for buying him xD
@kirby, yep, especially as not having an adult orientation is considered a clinical feature of a pedophile (most child molestors, fyi, are not pedophilies, they are “opportunistic abusers”). Also, the person most likely to sexual molest a boy is a man in a sexual relationship with a close female relative of that boy. The vast majority of men who molest boys are hetero-and hetero men show more attraction to prepubescent boys in scientific studies on arousal than gay men do. Every serious mental health and child welfare group has stated that gay people are not more likely to molest children. NWO is just wrong, as usual.
NWOSlave’s comment is very misandrist, just sayin’. Kind of funny, that: whenever you find a true misogynist, you always find some misandry following along afterward.
Ami: Yes, I agree. And the problem with feminists being allies is that there’s, um, no movement to be allies to, on account of right now all the men’s rightsers are fuckheads. But I guess I have two problems: there are some feminists (not the majority) who if an actual anti-sexist men’s movement appeared (I need a shorter name for this) would start yelling “what about the menz?” and “male privilege!”; and the complete and abject failure of the men’s rights movement to be useful in the slightest has left rather a void in the whole fighting-sexist-oppression thing that feminists are basically the only people qualified to fill, so even though it’s not entirely fair, I think we should be paying more attention to things like men not getting into college as often.
Hippodeimia: I do not actually think feminists are Nazis. I am a feminist, after all. I just wanted to make a Tom Lehrer reference, on account of Tom Lehrer’s awesome. 🙂
I do not think the CURRENT men’s movement and the women’s movement should be allies. God, no. I read Manboobz. I don’t have much common ground with people who think that I deserve to be raped for being slutty, or who think the biggest gender issue of our times is chicks digging jerks. I do think there is a space for a feminist-inspired anti-sexist movement focused around men.
Also, NWO, you twit, TITLE IX MANDATES GENDER PARITY. THIS MEANS THAT MEN ARE ACTUALLY SLIGHTLY MORE LIKELY TO BE ADMITTED TO COLLEGE NOW THAN WOMEN. FEWER OF THEM APPLY TO COLLEGE.
It is almost like you have no idea what you’re talking about.
@Ozymandias no I agree w/ that, I was just saying what would be necessary for a philosophical alliance as you’re suggesting 🙂 not that we can’t do stuff now (as I was saying, this actually does happen out there, and was using that as an example of how it can happen here, also what you said about “filling the gap” is also something feminists and women’s agencies and shelters have been doing when they realized there was a vacuum there, and those spaces are also usually male-focused too, and making sure that the issues men are facing aren’t derailed :3 )
Dear NWO,
Please stop claiming to speak for all men. Because you don’t.
Love and kisses,
Captain Bathrobe
It is almost like you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Actually, Oz, it’s exactly like he has no idea what he’s talking about…probably because, in fact, he has no idea what he’s talking about.
I’m honestly glad. I still want to collectively take the entire men’s rights movement and thwack them with a copy of Feminism Is For Everybody until they understand the title.
I’m glad about Ami’s statement that some feminist groups are helping men, not about NWO not knowing what he’s talking about. Just to be clear.
You know, they’d probably just think that those evil Feminists want to brainwash everyone into fighting for women’s rights, ie Feminism is for Everybody. This would be before the brain damage sets in.
It’s worse than that, the evil feminists are supporting both sides at the same time, so they can…profit or something, I think. Just like the Rothchilds (sic) did in World War 2.
The Muslim world should comment on what she had said. But then who is she anyway ? Just a tool in some political organization wishing to get more support and more power in the country. Bottom line is it is about Islam.
FUCK YEAH OZYMANDIAS WE LOVE YOU!!
–The Muslim world
Ozymandias,
I’m glad that Tom Lehrer’s awesome. I don’t see what that has to do with what you wrote:
“Feminists? You know what you are, as a movement, right now? You are that’s not my department says Wernher Von Brauhn.*” You even make a specific reference to Godwining yourself, so you’re aware of the Nazi connection.
I’m a little confused as to how I’m not supposed to make the connection that “You are not my department says Werner Von Brauhn = behavior of feminists in not adequately supporting men’s rights” when it’s right there in what you wrote.
“I do think there is a space for a feminist-inspired anti-sexist movement focused around men.”
And I think it’s fair to ask them to do at least some of the work themselves. When you say this: “And what’s that about “well, men should start their own anti-prison-rape and pro-stay-at-home-dads campaigns?” I wonder why you don’t think that’s a fair question. Why does all the work have to fall to feminists? Because if we don’t do it, we’re acting like Werner Von Brauhn?
Wow NWOaf, you are completely wrong. Again.
I want 13, not you. He is smarter, kinder, better educated, and just all around better then you. Actually, stuff he scraped off his shoe is better then you.
Isn’t Ozymandias just saying feminists are claiming that they are for protecting women’s rights, and that men’s rights “aren’t their department?” Dunno what that’s supposed to do with Nazis… Its just a figure of speech, like “I don’t care, said Pierre, I’m from France.” The Nazi connection is present but irrelevant.
Also, it seems like the issue is that the Men’s Rights movement, while it exists, does not (in appreciable quantity) actually go and promote men’s rights, hence Ozy’s “no ally to ally with” comment. While feminists should expect men to take part in their own fight for fair treatment, her point might be that feminists shouldn’t just ignore the issue by saying its soley the duty of men to promote their own rights.
That’s what I’ve taken away, anway.
Click on the link, it’s a quote from a Tom Lehrer song.
But there are male feminists, who should probably be in charge of said movement. I don’t really care who’s in charge, as long as it’s not me, because I (for example) tend to Godwin even when I don’t really mean it because I want to reference a song I like. 🙂
I am pretty sure we actually agree with each other…
Or what Kirbywarp said.
Hooray! I’m not totally off base with my mind-reading! I’m always afraid I’m totally off base with stuff like this…
I agree with you Ozy, equality is a group effort, and women are not the only ones responsible for fighting for women’s rights, same way that men are not the only ones supposed to be fighting for men’s rights. The conversation breaks down when you try to debate exactly how much each group should be contributing to each side.. especially if one group is doing next nothing for one side, and actively fighting against the other… Don’t complain about what others are doing to help you until you’ve started trying to help yourself.
I have pierced so many ears! Including my own!
I was not allowed to get my ears pierced until I was 13, so that’s 1 & 2. I did the third myself in high school during homeroom because my best friend was returning one of my cherished silver studs with a gold post. Four and five I did when I turned 18 (and yes, it took my parents 8 months to notice) number six I did one day before class on a whim, and seven and eight came after a breakup when I was 22. I only still wear earrings in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, & 8, but when forced by work to reduce the number I stuck with 3, 5, 7, & 8.
And yes, it did piss them off – I took out the traditional earrings and left the others. But hey, they said only two visible ones! I was following the letter of the law!
Amusingly, one time when I was complaining about this new dress-code to my co-worker, her husband was in her office. He’d never noticed that I had my ears pierced more than once. NEVER! TWO YEARS!
So I stick by dress codes are arbitrary (though in my experience they affect women more) and think they’re stupid and generally written by people who will not be affected. I worked in a basement doing IT. I almost never saw customers. My male boss hated that he couldn’t wear jeans anymore, because that’s practical when you spend a lot of time crawling under other people’s desks and rarely see anyone in person.
But hey, more than two visible piercings! Obviously upsetting the workplace! Because if I covered my ears everyone could tell me about…oh wait, no they couldn’t. I mean, sure, I wear very small earrings and don’t change them very often, so I’m sure they seem like part of the furniture, but really.
I wear seven earrings on a daily basis, it upsets my dad and literally no one else has ever noticed or cared, and even Dad forgets sometimes that he’s upset about it.
So if anyone’s in the DCish area and wants their ears pierced *or* their hair cut, I’m excellent at both, and I don’t charge.
I care about men’s rights, very much. Like Ozymandias said, many of the gender issues that affect women also affect men (not that that’s the reason I care, but to show overlap). I want men and women to have freedom of gender expression (whether that’s stereotypical or not, I don’t care), the ability and opportunity to be honest about their wants and intentions, and equal opportunities at things.
So what do I do about that? Do I join the Men’s Rights Movement? Am I a MGTOW?
Ah, fuck no. Why? Because not only are most of them deeply transphobic, there seems to be so little action. Because I give a shit about men’s rights, what did I do? I volunteered for a rape and abuse crisis line and advocated for male DV/rape victims, I wrote to my congresspeople about the quality of prisons and the sexual abuses suffered within, and I openly talk about how sexism affects men, too. The last one is a little less concrete, but it’s still important. When my male friends show emotion, I am supportive, and I try not to let gender policing go by unnoticed.
Almost all of the people I volunteered with on the crisis line were feminists, and every one of them was concerned with the treatment of their male clients – unfortunately, funding got slashed, and there are very few men calling in. They tried to do awareness-raising, and make it socially easier for men to access them, but I lived in a very conservative area that still strongly holds gender roles, so they were largely unsuccessful.
I don’t want a movement that just panders to my feelings about how shat-upon I am (because really, I’m not).
Oh, I’m sorry, it was a joke? How funny! How side-splitting! Jokes about Nazis are totally cool!
I should add that the six years I spent working for an agency that served Holocaust survivors has left me a little . . . humor-impaired when it comes to Nazis.
But if you “don’t really mean it,” then I guess that makes everything all right. Just go right on comparing feminists to Nazis, then.
Hippodameia, you’re being unfair. First, Vaughn Bran wasn’t a Nazi, IIRC, he switched over to the American side later in the war and played a huge role in the space race. Second, Ozymandias already stated she WASN’T comparing feminists to Nazis, so you’re complaining about a bad joke that doesn’t exist. Its understandable if talking about Nazis is triggering for you, but you don’t get to take offense at what isn’t there.
…wait, Hippodamela, what are you getting at? Ozy stated that she was attempting at making a point, and she owned up to her mistakes. What gives? She isn’t really comparing femenists to Nazis
Damn, and here I thought NWOsub was the master of passive-aggressive pearl-clutching. We may have a new champion.
“Ozymandias already stated she WASN’T comparing feminists to Nazis”
“Feminists? You know what you are, as a movement, right now? You are that’s not my department says Wernher Von Brauhn.* ”
There’s the comparison.
“*This has been, to the best of my knowledge, the first time I’ve ever Godwinned.”
There’s the acknowledgement that there’s a Nazi connection.
“Wernher Magnus Maximilian, Freiherr[1] von Braun (March 23, 1912 – June 16, 1977) was a German rocket scientist, aerospace engineer, space architect, and one of the leading figures in the development of rocket technology in Nazi Germany during World War II and in the United States after that.
A former member of the Nazi party, commissioned Sturmbannführer of the paramilitary SS and decorated Nazi war hero, von Braun would later be regarded as the preeminent rocket engineer of the 20th century in his role with the United States civilian space agency NASA.”
“Without even listening to my explanations, [von Braun] ordered the Meister to have me given 25 strokes…Then, judging that the strokes weren’t sufficiently hard, he ordered I be flogged more vigorously…von Braun made me translate that I deserved much more, that in fact I deserved to be hanged…I would say his cruelty, of which I was personally a victim, are, I would say, an eloquent testimony to his Nazi fanaticism.[37]
Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner, testified that von Braun stood by and watched as prisoners were hung by chains from hoists.[38] Von Braun claimed he “never saw any kind of abuse or killing” and only “heard rumors…that some prisoners had been hanged in the underground galleries”.[39]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
There’s what “wasn’t von Braun’s department.”
No, I’m not going to take this as a “joke.”