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bad boys feminism links masculinity misogyny MRA MRA paradox oppressed men

Ozymandias asks: Who cares about Men's Rights?

The Who does not care (about its equipment)

Great post by Ozymandias on her blog on the subject of “Who cares about men’s rights?” (Answer, Ozymandias, for one.) She offers a devastating critique of the Men’s Rights Movement and a critique of feminism I think I half-agree with as well.  (She critiques feminists for not caring enough about men’s issues and responding to them with “but what about the menz” mockery; I think she’s got a point, but the fact is that lots of feminists do in fact work on behalf of men and men’s issues, from feminists involved in fighting for men and women falsely accused of sex crimes to feminist shelter workers who work on a regular basis to help male victims of abuse.)

Anyway, you should pop on over and read it.

It’s being discussed all over Reddit as well.

The post also inspired a debate on the old “chicks only want to date jerks” thing, which she’s broken out into a separate post.

EDITED TO ADD: And now The Spearhead has noticed the post.

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Arielle
Arielle
9 years ago

Here’s the reply I left on Ozy’s blog, in case anyone’s interested:

“I agree with most of what you say, Ozy. However, I do think that feminism *does* help men (and even other groups). Feminists tend to be supportive of men who don’t fit the “manly” mold; LGBT rights are a very common topic brought up in feminism, and feminists want fathers to be more involved. Most (if not nearly all) feminists believe that childcare should be split evenly, especially considering that many households now have both parents working.

Unfortunately, feminists can’t fight everything at once, so it’s up to other groups to fill the other nooks and crannies. It’s not fair to expect feminists to do everything for MRAs; there’s just too much to cover. If MRAs could focus on male issues without blaming women/feminists/feminism, then I’d gladly join. However, I’ve seen nothing but scathing hatred, which offends me and makes me turn away.”

tl;dr: I agree that men and boys have issues that we need to pay more attention to and try to resolve, but expecting feminists to pick up everyone’s problems is unfair; it’s like criticizing an autism-awareness group for not talking more about clinical depression or bi-polar disorder.

Seraph
Seraph
9 years ago

Think this will get some of our resident MRA’s to admit that feminists are willing to criticize women?

Me neither.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Seraph well I’ve been criticizing other feminists, and talking about problems w/ bullying and pressures boys face and stuff about the way boys are pushed to accept head injuries and suck it up and etc etc in sports, and SO MANY feminist blogs I know do so on the same vein about father’s rights or etc… and apparently none of us count, so I wouldn’t hold your breath xD But given that this is going viral, maybe it’ll change something. :]

@David @Arielle yeah I had some of the same caveats, it’s in the post I wrote a post about her post :3 (on my bloggy blog :3 ) but it’s rly powerful and passionate and hope ppl who rly need to pay attention pay attention 😀

zombie rotten mcdonald

I absolutely agree that feminism helps men.

There could be nothing more freeing that eroding gender stereotypes and tired gender roles.

When in college (when dinosaurs roamed the earth and MTV played music videos) I had funny colored hair, all kinds of ear piercings (long before the bod mod movement made this vanilla) and wore oddball clothing, nail polish and eyeliner. OK, more than a bit influenced by Robert Smith, but still…. I miss being able to be more decorative.

zombie rotten mcdonald

My hair never looked like ami’s though XP

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

A lot of the reason I like hanging out here is that we DO get to talk about the menz. Here “but women can rape men too!” is not considered derailing.

“I’m short and I hate fat chicks” is still derailing though 🙂

mediumdave
mediumdave
9 years ago

Arielle, I think an important point relevant to this gets overlooked sometimes: People who are feminists usually are interested in other issues. People who are feminists often care about race issues, environmental issues, other social justice issues, etc. And roughly half of the people affected by those issues are men. So it’s misleading to say that “feminism” doesn’t care about men, because feminists (such as Ozymandias), as people who care about people in general, care about men.

sarahejones
9 years ago

I like how the commenters on the MensRights Reddit are continuously misgendering the author :/

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@zombie my hair is awesome XD except right now it looks like a reverse skunk >_>;; i was wondering, what did you do to your hair? :3 I’m always intrigued by this cuz hair is awesome and a great way to express yourself 😀

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Can you set up polls on the side of this thing btw Davd? 😮 (off topic) was just wondering if having a poll for the theme of this week’s open thread (just to kick off the party, like w/ music last week) would be fun? :3

zombie rotten mcdonald

i was wondering, what did you do to your hair

Color: blonde; black; strawberry blonde.

Short; long; short; long; pigtail.

but then I graduated. For a while I had the pigtail, but it could only stay concealed down my shirt collar for so long, then had to go. It was time anyway.

Now, it’s just gray. But its still there!

zombie rotten mcdonald

except right now it looks like a reverse skunk

Also, I think that is great, it’s like Debby Harry.

zombie rotten mcdonald

I used to have like four or five ear piercings between the two ears, can’t remember which. When I went all professional, had to go back to just the one, in the “NON GAY” ear. but I could still get a second one in if I had to, for festivals.

Nowadays, I just seem like a sad old graybeard pirate, so I rarely wear ear jewelry.

Sigh. Gender roles and expectations, so sad.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

🙁

Even for zombies huh? :

Feminism doesn’t care about zombies enuf : *protests*

zombie rotten mcdonald

Speaking of which, here’s a funny story.

Back when I was an undergraduate, going to college in Cowtown, Wisconsin, one weekend a friend and I decided it was time to get our ears pierced. We wandered down to Main Street, finding an open jewelry store, and told the girl behind the counter we were getting our ears pierced. She started writing it up, when the little old guy in the back glared at us and said “we don’t do men”.

“…..?”

“we don’t do men.”

My friend said “what, are your TOOLS so inadequate you can’t pierce a MAN.?”

“we don’t do men.”

Heh. We were already half-drunk, so we prevailed on a couple of friends to drive us down to Dubuque to a mall that had a Piercing Pagoda, we both got punched, and she split the standard piercing fee between us because we both took one.

It was funny.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

o_o

I’m glad times changed, sry that happened tho >:| When I got my ears pierced, I was still passing as “male” and thankfully the places I went were okay w/ it even tho it was v much a girly store xD

I never got the whole “one ear makes you gay the other doesnt” thing.. xD i never remembered which ear either… o_o

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
9 years ago

“[E]xpecting feminists to pick up everyone’s problems is unfair”

Hell yes.

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

Oh, yeah, they don’t “do” men, huh? Lesbian piercing parlor!!

Fuck MRAs
Fuck MRAs
9 years ago

Alright, I give up. I hate doing this, because, you know, GOOGLE and all…but what in the everloving fuck does KFS stand for? The big G refuses to cough it up.

Amatyultare
Amatyultare
9 years ago

F— MRAs: it’s an acronym that Ozy’s commenter made up, I think? It stands for ‘Kind, Funny, Smart’.

Or, to answer a different way, it’s the new generation’s ‘Nice Guy’.

Sarah
Sarah
9 years ago

KFS stands for Kind, Funny, Smart. They mention it in the article a little further down.

And I love zombie, greybeard pirates! =D

Ok, ok! I love talking about my hair, and now I’m totally going to.

It’s been bright pink, an ugly blueish/greenish/grey, bleach blonde, bright orange, black, dirty blond, brown, silver, blue, blue and silver streaks, dark purple, bright purple, green, orange with black streaks, blond with pink streaks, and right now is brown with bond streaks.

It’s been grown long, down past my shoulder blades, cut into a series of really ugly, really short hair cuts, and then shaved off, at which point I rocked the socks off of being bald. And then it started to grow back and I rocked the socks off of various lengths of buzz cuts, and a number of weird cuts that I just sort of made up. And now I’m working on a sexy mullet.

Should I post pictures? I love the crazy stuff I’ve done with my hair! =D

Amnesia
Amnesia
9 years ago

Ozymandias is just all kinds of awesome, there’s no question about it.

As for hair, one day I want to dye mine green.

anonymous
9 years ago

The Muslim world should comment on what she had said. But then who is she anyway ? Just a tool in some political organization wishing to get more support and more power in the country. Bottom line is it is about Islam.

Leroy Brown
Leroy Brown
9 years ago

I had funny colored hair, all kinds of ear piercings (long before the bod mod movement made this vanilla) and wore oddball clothing, nail polish and eyeliner.

*Is briefly distracted by men in eyeliner. Ponders how ending men’s oppression also benefits self, just as ending women’s oppression benefits men, in order to pretend distraction reflects depth and not prurience.*

I respect Ozy and agree with some of that post, but not all of it. My experience has been that many or most feminists do care deeply about all of those issues. They do not, however, take kindly to being told that they need to drop everything they are doing to work on men’s issues instead of women’s issues, with no help from the people making the criticism. Or having every conversation about [women’s issue X] be derailed into a conversation about [men’s issue Y]. I do think that this very common dynamic frequently does lead to feminists shutting down those conversations, maybe too quickly, but it is somewhat understandable. But I don’t think that proves feminists, as a group, don’t care. I suspect that a men’s rights advocate whose contribution to a conversation, for example, about rape is “Would you experienced anti-rape advocates care to advise a new anti-rape advocacy group focusing on prison rape of men?” would be received rather differently than one whose contribution is “Men have it way worse, look at prison rape, and bitches be lying anyway, QED, feminism is stupid and pointless.”

darksidecat
darksidecat
9 years ago

The “gay ear” thing. *shakes head* I can’t count the number of times I have told heteros that if something is a secret queer code, they probably don’t know about it-because having a coded way to secretly pick up other queer people fails if a bunch of heteros know it.

Moving on, are KFS to “Nice guys” what “nice guys” are to SNAGs? These jerkos have been around for a while. When a person holds ideas like that about women-that they are all liars, fools, etc.-they are not being nice, kind, or sensitive, they are being asses. The fact that women aren’t dating them does not show women only date jerks, it shows that women are avoiding at least a certain subset of jerks.

As to my hair, I don’t think I have ever done anything wild with it, except cutting it all off. I always hated it long (it was an aspergers trigger and one of the focal points of my mother’s abuse). So, at twenty, I finally got up enough guts to get it almost completely cut off. I went from curls half way down my back to two inch long fluff. The hairdresser literally cried and begged me not to do it. Ha, I had already told someone who spent years beating me over not wanting it that I was chopping it off, like that was going to deter me. I cut my own hair now, which saves money and stress. It looked pretty terrible the first time, but I have been cutting it on my own for a year now and have gotten pretty good.

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

What happens after that? After being horribly burned exactly because they took women seriously, do you think those men are going to be more likely to support women’s rights? more likely to listen to what a woman has to say on any subject? more likely to appreciate a woman’s point of view on any situation? Don’t count on it.

That’s right, ladies, better start putting out or men will *never* take women’s rights seriously.

Christ, I hope MRA’s never go away. They’re the funniest thing to hit the internet since fundy Christians.

trianglethief
trianglethief
9 years ago

The way I see it: feminism is a movement. It’s not like a MMORPG when suddenly you have hit level 80 and like, whoa, I have followed the official internet guide and now I am the purest, most distilled form of feminist there is, so, game: OVER.

Movements are made up of people who generally agree on a basic premise. Enter the classic quote, which I will here paraphrase awesomely: ‘women, they are, you know, people.’ Substitute pretty much any other broad movement and you’ll uncover the same basic idea which, I think, would be something like a grammar exercise, ‘I matter, you matter, we matter, etfuckingcetera’.

I think a good way to judge a movement is to look at which way it’s trying to grow. If the majority of its growth is aimed at inclusion – by which I mean “How many people can we do good for, even if they don’t like the uniform?”, not “How many people we can we win to our cause?” – then, well, they tend to be pretty okay. Like, say, nursing.

So there’s never going to be some kind of Ultimate Feminist, or Ultimate Fucking Anything (except in like the Olympics right before the world implodes or something, I guess. This is not an exact science, people.) because people simply aren’t perfect. I mean, sure, sometimes you feel like you’ve levelled up and now, omg, you are so WAY much more badass at this being-a-person shit than you were a minute ago, but most of us know we’re never even going to be half as splendid as we’d like to be at all the things we admire about all the people we admire, ever, because that’s, like, what, a LOT of people for most of us, if we count them all up, right? Being utterly perfect is a JOB of WORK, let me tell you!?

Inclusivity happens all over the place in feminisim. There are a handful of really extreme ‘WIMMINZ RULE 4EVS people’ and a handful of ‘wellll, a very specific type of woman is also probably a person’ people, but most people who count themselves feminists are just.. you know, people. They’re somewhere between ‘sometimes tolerable’ and ‘almost entirely awesome’. Sometimes they’re feeling tetchy and want to get all up in your face about how you need to STOP BEING A DICK AAAHHHHHHH. And sometimes they are more like ‘Dude. Party foul; I have a clue to offer you but it’s cool if you just want to go to the cinema or whatever because we are mates.’ and all sorts in between.

Feminism, at its best, is about everyone is a person and that SHIT: IT MATTERS. which makes it UNLIKE, an ideology SUCH AS being hitler which is like a) how few people are acceptable to hitler and his personal definition of his own neurotic ideology and b) how many people we can force to be acceptable to hitler by being as massive a jerk as possible towards them until they capitulate and get a metaphorical haircut.

IN CONCLUSION: Feminism is about how everyone is a person. Men’s Rights Activism is about how dudes are so incredibly equal to everyone that they get to receive presents on your birthday and also to win every game of monopoly else they throw the pieces everywhere in an epic tantrum and you’re the one who has to pick them up.

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

Hair! My hair is blue like in my icon! Well, ok, it’s not quite that bright because I haven’t done it in a month or so so it’s kinda faded. Hmm, maybe project for this weekend 🙂

The comments on that “chicks only want to date jerks” thread are hilarious.

I don’t actually care that much about “funny” – wouldn’t make my top 10. Silly though, I totally dig that. I guess silly is a type of funny? Sorta?

Kind, maybe, but I think I’d phrase it more like fair – I don’t want someone who’s a pushover and, as one of my many wonderful exes put it “sometimes you have to be an asshole”. As long as it’s only SOMETIMES 🙂

But smart? Smart is non-negotiable. Smart is like THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. And you can’t FAKE that. I mean, you can educate yourself and you can learn things but unless you’re the kind of guy who is inherently interested in geeky learning pursuits FOR REASONS OTHER THAN GETTING LAID I just ain’t gonna be interested.

AbsintheDexterous
AbsintheDexterous
9 years ago

They do not, however, take kindly to being told that they need to drop everything they are doing to work on men’s issues instead of women’s issues, with no help from the people making the criticism. Or having every conversation about [women’s issue X] be derailed into a conversation about [men’s issue Y].

Yeah, I’ve seen this happen, and it’s not pretty. And in general, I agree that all the work that feminists do does help men.

And I love my hair. It’s a pixie cut, red in the front and blond – platinum blond, almost white – in the back. It is totally awesome. I’ve also had it down to the middle of my back when it was plain jane brown, which sounds nice in theory, but because I’ve got baby fine hair, it gets all tangly and sticks to my shoulders. I might go shoulder length on the blond part though.

trianglethief
trianglethief
9 years ago

Oh, yeah, also. I think there are quite a lot of white, cis, etc, AS WE ALL KNOW WELL, most privileged versions of feminism in prominence right now and so I totally and completely am in line with ozymandias’s point about that because we all know about television, right? The ‘best of the worst’ get a spot and that’s about as far as we stretch, right? And the ‘best of the worst’ are.. well, if not writing for the Daily Mail then at least have ties to the Telegraph, to be entirely Anglocentric here. And that’s about as far from ‘dudes win if women are people’ versions of reality as can be achieved.

ozymandias
9 years ago

Ack! What I intended in that passage about feminism, which might not have come through, is that feminists ought to have the same relationship with the hypothetical non-misogynistic men’s rights movement as it does with trans activism or anti-racist activism: they’re allies, they work together on intersectional issues or really big things, but mostly they each do their own thing.

Also, that men’s rights activists are clearly falling down on the job, and SOMEONE has to do something, and feminism is the most likely movement out of which a real men’s rights movement can emerge.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

What an absolute load of narcissitic self congradulatory feminist tripe her article is. It just reiterates and rehashes the same old manure heaped upon men for decades and decades.

Starting off with oh golly wolly weepy men are wonderful. It’s all good for men to act like women. You can wear dresses and make up and break those bad old patriarchy gender roles. Gee feminism wants to include all you sensitive guys into the holy LGBTQ…XYZ gang. Well guess what? We don’t care and heres a secret. We find it repulsive.

Then she goes on to yimmer about caring that men aren’t getting into college, of course when I mention Title IX out here, she’s starts screaming about how great it is. The great ozzy goes off on a tangent about pedophiles, yet fails to mention thats the LGBTQ doing the deed, the very faction feminism supports and loves.

She continues with her “caring” and I quote “I care about men who want to do their share of the child-rearing” As if men do nothing towards the child rearing. Ya know earning the moolah, taking care of the house, security. Plus all that fantasic horse play with the kiddies. Apparently it’s “known” women do more, because they say so.

Oh she just cares about everything it seems. Well guess what we know who lobbied for all the laws that gave women power over men in all social, political and economic realms of moren day society. Here a hint, it wasn’t men. She ever had the audacity to continue fostering the outright lie that men earn more than women for the same hours of the same job. C’mon, how many time must that lie be debunked.

She doesn’t give a flying fuck about any man as she types in men dying 7 years earlier yet she knows money is spent 2 to 1 on womens health. There are 10 federally funded health centers for women and 0 for men. You’re full of shit since no feminist group has ever done anything but lobbied for more.

The only comment that wasn’t the standard women are too kind and spiritual and moral to be on the same planet as men was demonspawn. And of course everyone instantly jumped all over his comment. I’m afraid your brand of world communism isn’t quite to mens liking. If you actually “cared” about men you would be grinding feminisim under your heel for the filthy, vile hate movement it always was.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@ozymandias the difference tho in being allies (vs stuff like being allies w/ trans or queer ppl, where the privilege dynamic is more understood, or at least should be >_>) is that the MRM needs to acknowledge at the very least the concept of male privilege, and the screwed up gender roles that delineate “masculine” and “feminine and how the oppression of women can intersect with the issues they deal w/ (like a lot of the times, it has to do with pushing boys to prove that they’re not girls, like hitting for young boys in hockey, and keeping girls from being able to do things, like checking in hockey, whether they like it or not… and there’s an intersection there that isn’t just “feminists like to watch young boys get hurt that’s why this is” which believe it or not, I’ve SEEN as an argument, in a letter in the Toronto Star -_-) which isn’t to say “bow down to the almighty victimhood of women” or nething -_-;; (i’m not saying btw that this isn’t what you mean, I’m just elaborating on what you said that inspired thinky thoughts :] )

But like I completely agree with Leroy Brown in that, the problem is most of the time it turns into a zero sum game thing or a complete derail and “you have to drop everything, what about us?” I like the examples that Leroy uses about ways feminism can help and support ppl considered about men’s issues in that regard, and I also SEE these things in action in my work, b/c there is consultation and support and etc between mens’ and women’s shelters and services and working w/ the immigrant, PoC and queer communities on more inclusive and intersectional issues like trans inclusion policies :] ( In fact, I’m one of those consultants xD ) I know it’s not perfect, and there are still groups out there that can be close minded (like Vancouver Rape Relief -_-) but there is co-operation and privilege checking and acknowledgement of the awfulness out there by ppl who work in anti-oppression, for both men and women… so surely there can be on the internet too right? :]

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I’m apparently a pedophile… possibly twice over one… which would … cancel each other out? make me like negative age ppl? o_O (by NWO’s logic I might be in love w/ zygotes xD I wonder if NWO adds 9 months to his birthday btw o_o )

Who else here is a pedophile? Raise your hand! xDDD

I’m curious about when the smileys cancel out my rodeo catness when it comes to NWO.. we’ll see wun we xD

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

*hears some buzzing noises, sees that is NWOaf and ignores it*

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
9 years ago

Ozy, it didn’t come through. At all.

If what you’re trying to convey is:

“feminists ought to have the same relationship with the hypothetical non-misogynistic men’s rights movement as it does with trans activism or anti-racist activism: they’re allies, they work together on intersectional issues or really big things, but mostly they each do their own thing,”

It got lost in this:

“Feminists? You know what you are, as a movement, right now? You are that’s not my department says Wernher Von Brauhn.* ”

Implying that FEMINISTS ARE ACTING LIKE NAZIS because they work to advance women’s rights does not advance the idea that that that men’s movements and women’s movements should be allies.

Follow David’s link and you’ll see that plenty of feminists care about and work on men’s issues. And plenty of feminists care about and work on women’s issues, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

Hey Ami, how many millions of straight men would you trample to save just one of your precious transpeople or queer folk?

Lizzy don’t play coy I know you want some slave cock.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Hay XD The rodeo cat worked! :3 He did respond XDDDD

I love that I made him get over his thing of smileys just cuz he HAS to retort to me XDDD

And plz, what situation would that happen in? XD How many millions of everybody else would you trample to save just one of your precious zygotes? XD

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

“Hey Ami, how many millions of straight men would you trample to save just one of your precious transpeople or queer folk?”

None, I would imagine. What are you even talking about?

“Lizzy don’t play coy I know you want some slave cock.”

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I also love his idea that trans ppl can’t be straight xD

W
T
G

xD

“WAY TO GO, NWO” would be a great chant btw xD

Maybe this is like Goldeneye where I’m in a tank… or maybe I’m in an AT-AT! xD

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

No, no, no! The correct was to phrase it is “May I please offer you some slave cock, Mistress?”

Jeez, you’re not very good at this.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Who wouldn’t want a Bounty Hunter’s spaceship shaped like a rooster btw? 😮

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME xDDDD

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

Feminism, helping men with insults. Sounds like a hate movement to me and every other man on the planet. Keep up the good work Romes about to fall.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Yo NWO, so all gay people are pedophiles now? When did this happen? I know this point will be lost on you, but pedophiles don’t actually care all that much what gender the child is. They go for the age thing, you now, pedophile. Gay people men don’t prefer young boys any more than straight men prefer young girls.

“It’s all good for men to act like women. You can wear dresses and make up and break those bad old patriarchy gender roles. ”

So, to interpret your derision, do you think all men and all women should adhere strictly to “those bad old patriarchy gender roles?” Really? Why are you so damn interested what other people do with their lives (barring criminal activity anyway)?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

AHHHH A TIME TRAVELER! Dx

EXTERMINATE!!! EXTERMINAAAAATE

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@speedlines, I know right? Or maybe he’s just playing it better than any of us realize, trying to provoke Holly into giving some more much-needed verbal flogging. Can’t really decide which, actually.

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

It really is hard to tell, but if he were my slave I’d make him work a lot harder than this.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

If he were my Slave, I’d hide him amongst the garbage dump until my prey thought they were safe to jet off xD

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

If he were my slave…

Well.. I dunno what I’d do. I don’t have a dom bone in my body… He probably would be rather miserable under my whip. “Couldn’t you like… punch me? Or something? Please?”

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
9 years ago

If he was my slave I’d sell him. Assuming I could find a sucker, of course.

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