As SallyStrange has pointed out in the comments here, quite a few MRAs seem to have a bad case of “womb envy” – or, more specifically, “abortion envy.” That is, they envy the ability of women to abort fetuses that they – the guys, as sperm providers — have had a part in creating. And since they don’t get final say in whether or not the woman in the equation gets an abortion, many of these guys claim they should have the right to a “paper abortion” – that is, to wash their hands financially of the baby once it is born.
But for every MRA demanding their own right to an abortion, there’s another MRA who thinks abortion is an unmitigated evil, which in essence means that they think pregnant women should be forced to give birth to babies they don’t want. The guy behind The Life Zone evidently thinks this way. And so does one New Mexican pro-lifer named Greg Fultz, who has launched a bizarre campaign designed to shame the woman who aborted what he thinks of as “his” baby – the highlight of which is a giant billboard depicting him holding what looks like the blackened carcass of a baby under the headline “This Would Have Been a Picture Of My 2-Month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To NOT KILL Our Child!”
I’ve been meaning to write about the Fultz thing for some time, but haven’t, because frankly the whole thing makes me depressed. Over the past day or so three separate Man Boobz readers have brought the subject up, so I figure it’s time to deal with the subject. My solution? I’m going to punt, and rather than post about it specifically I’m just going to point you to an excellent, and nicely sarcastic, post on the subject from Jill on Feministe.
Since Jill wrote that post, Fultz has been ordered by a judge to take the billboard down or face jail; he says he won’t. Details here.
NOTE: I originally ended this post with a 1200 word dissertation spelling out my take on abortion. But reading it back over again I realized that many of the points I made in it had already been made, in many cases more deftly, by various commenters in yesterday’s 800-plus comment thread (which actually stayed on the topic for the first several hundred comments, until more or less everything that needed to be said on the subject had been said). The tl;dr summary: her body, her choice. “Paper abortions” only work if the government is willing to step in to make up for the loss of child support, and that isn’t going to happen in the US any time soon. (And I don’t see many MRAs calling for increased support for single moms.)
So instead of abortion, let’s talk about Fultz. What a dick.
Speaking of birth control, I posted this yesterday but I think it got kinda lost in a 900+ comment storm. Yesterday was the 45th anniversary of Griswold V Connecticut!
http://jezebel.com/5809552/happy-birthday-to-your-right-to-birth-control
Yay birth control!!
Hard to believe that was only 45 years ago. 45 years ago my mom was 23 and married to her first husband! (not my dad)
MRAL – I don’t know what to think about a woman who goes through with a pregnancy despite the fact that the father would clearly prefer her to have an abortion, because we don’t really know her reasoning. Is she pro-life or religious? Personally, I am highly pro-choice, but would also only personally consider an abortion in the event of sexual assault or if my life were in danger–is this woman similar? In my life, I have known many women who were told by the man they slept with that if she were to get pregnant, he would not want her to have the child. This is obvioulsy something women need to consider as that is a fairly strong indication that the man is going to want nothing to do with the child if the woman chooses to have it…but should it be a deciding factor? I just can’t say because there are too many variables.
In my life I have tried to make my personal thoughts on abortion and pregnancy abundantly clear to every man I have dated/slept with. I know where all of these men stood, so if the situation came up I wouldn’t be surprised at their response. Luckily, I’ve never had to have the “I’m pregnant” conversation, but I feel fairly certain how it would play out if I did. I guess I assume most adults have these same conversations with their sexual partners.
In the end, what the woman chooses may make you lose respect for the woman; however, as discussed in yesterday’s thread, once there is a baby, the father’s obligation isn’t to the mother, it is to the baby.
Oh, and I agree with the previous post that said that the child doesn’t belong to either the mother or father, but the uterous belongs to the mother. As for love and support (financial and emotional) for the child (from conception on), I think (and hope!) that both parents would share equally…I know I certianly wouldn’t want to be pregnant and have my significant other not give a shit about the life inside of me until it comes out…that would suck!
Changing one’s opinion easily isn’t a sign of needing therapy – it’s just a sign that it wasn’t a very strongly held opinion. Like, if overnight someone convinced me to become pro-life that might be a sign that there was something wrong with me. But if overnight someone convinced me that actually Peet’s coffee is better than Starbucks I wouldn’t be too worried.
Someone above posted a link to Fultz’ violent tweets about his ex, and I think the link is worth reposting:
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979418806
There were a lot more than the ones listed; if anyone has a link to all of them (which I saw when I first looked into the story), please post it!
Or that the opinion wasn’t sincerely held in the first place, and the whole cycle of outrageous initial opinion converting to a more reasonable one has been found to be a successful source of attention.
Think what you want dude.
but unlike most of you, I have empathy.
as opposed to 9 months of inconvenience which many women actually enjoy because they’re carrying life and all that spiritual crap
I’d probably hate her.
Just thought I’d juxtapose those. I’ll add more as the thread progresses, surely.
It comes down to being a source of attention. Seraph is right, as amusing as it can be it seems this site is just enabling mral.
I thought he was leaving us after last week’s flounce. Guess we’re not that lucky.
“Or that the opinion wasn’t sincerely held in the first place, and the whole cycle of outrageous initial opinion converting to a more reasonable one has been found to be a successful source of attention.”
Yes. THIS. And I notice that we’re not even 100 comments in and the thread’s becoming all about him. Again.
How is this thread becoming all about me? I’m staying on topic. If you fucking hate me so much ask Futrelle to ban me, or to start that Manboobz Forum and I’ll probably leave your precious comments threads alone.
FULTZ IS ON CNN RIGHT THIS SECOND
The “paper abortion” is one of those ideas that looks good, well, on paper but would have a host of unintended consequences in practice. Expect the child poverty rate to go up even further should it be put into practice. Also, as I’ve said earlier, there is no possible way that the state is going to forgo the right to try to collect money from non-custodial parents of kids receiving government assistance, even if the custodial parent consents. No. Way.
Augh! I don’t have a TV! Someone want to give a summary, plz?
Actually, he’s right. He’s the focus of attention this time because he’s presenting the “yes, Fultz went too far, but you have to understand where he’s coming from” argument. Which, in it’s way, is more important to refute than outright anti-woman hatred like NWOSlave’s. As long as people have this image in their minds of loving husbands who would have been perfect fathers if their wives hadn’t, callously and for no apparent reason (perhaps pure spite) aborted His Baby, instead of the truth of Fultz and Filet’s ex-boyfriend, they’re going to keep sympathizing with the Fultz’s of this world right up to the point (and sometimes beyond) that someone gets dead.
It’s all about educating the lurkers.
Via Feministe: “Nani, Patron Saint of Lucky Escapes”. T Shirt worthy! XD
Re: Paper abortions.
I think that it seems like a good idea, but as many have said above, the feasibility and consequences need to be seriously considered. Particularly, some sort of government funding for the child, and protecting the mother from being threatened/manipulated into it. Also, the role of the father in that child’s life – it’s all fine and dandy to say “he has 0 rights and responsibilities to the child,” but what if the father and mother get back together at a later date? Are their guidelines regarding that?
And Fultz…well wow. This situation is terrifying on many levels, the least of which being the fact that he is STALKING HIS EX-GIRLFRIEND. IMHO this is less an issue of abortion and more of an issue of creepy abusive stalker exes.
The Fultz segment is over. He did not, I think, come off well; something seemed a bit off about him.
The news anchor asked a few tough questions, but obviously didn’t know all the details of the case — he said he never threatened his ex, but the anchor didn’t follow up with a question about his violent comments online. Nor did she comment about him naming his faux organization after his ex when he said it wasn’t really about his ex but about father’s rights. His lawyer was, as you might expect, a lot more articulate, and made it all about “free speech” but he was only asked one or two questions. Most of the segment was Fultz.
MRAL, to answer your question, I think it is really fucked up if a woman chooses to have a child with a man who does not want one. I acknowledge that there is no equitable way to give the man and say in the decision once pregnancy has occurred, but I still think forcing someone to be a father against his will is wrong. If you do not ever want to reproduce I strongly suggest getting a vasectomy, but be prepared to wait a while. It is difficult to obtain a vasectomy if you are both child free and under 30. The pain is relatively minor, the best way for me to describe it is, it feels like getting kicked rather hard in the testicles, but slowed down over the course of 36 hours. It is a very small price to pay to be able to be in control of your own reproductive future.
More specifically, abortion as a means of escaping creepy abusive stalker exes. Imagine if poor Nani hadn’t had her miscarriage or abortion or whatever she had? She’d be bound to this fuckwit forever. This is why so many abusive husbands and boyfriends sabotage or deny birth control.
Yeah, Julia, if I were her I’d be thanking my lucky stars I didn’t have to spend the next 18 years negotiating child support/shared custody/restraining orders with a psychopath like Fultz.
I’d also be extremely angry, humiliated, and probably scared for my life (especially considering those tweets!), but it’s always good to look for the silver lining, eh?
Yes! Silver lining are so flimsy nowadays! I’m gettin better at finding them… I think? :3
http://www.fortheloveofnani.com/
How many female friends have you had again?
Also, a little grammatical pet peeve: You don’t abort a baby/fetus/zygote/whatever, you abort a pregnancy. At least that’s my understanding of it.
@filet *BIG BIG HUGS* : I hope you have a good roast :]
@everyone else MRAL’s been here for 2 hours and it’s still under 100 comments? xD You guys are slipping! xD
@holly I’ve always felt uncomfortable about dick and cunt and etc : (tho somebody once called me a cuntscab which I thought was hilarious cuz is that like what clots over a wound on a cunt, or one that goes to work while the other vaginas are still picketing? xD I bet MRAs think that any woman who has sex with a man is a cuntscab against feminists xD ) I always wondered if douchebag was an insult against women (i.e. something used by women is automatically something awful), but apparently not :]
@MRAL but ppl here aren’t reacting to your hypothetical situation, so when you realized that it didn’t match up with this case, it behooves you to just kinda let it go for another thread… or at least not act like ppl acting angrily about this situation would not have more nuance with yours :] this is prolly why things became about you, you actually went off topic, and then you’re reacting to YOUR situation, but acting as if the reaction to THIS case is the reaction to your hypothetical situation you brought up xD
Why is my comment in moderation? o_O