As SallyStrange has pointed out in the comments here, quite a few MRAs seem to have a bad case of “womb envy” – or, more specifically, “abortion envy.” That is, they envy the ability of women to abort fetuses that they – the guys, as sperm providers — have had a part in creating. And since they don’t get final say in whether or not the woman in the equation gets an abortion, many of these guys claim they should have the right to a “paper abortion” – that is, to wash their hands financially of the baby once it is born.
But for every MRA demanding their own right to an abortion, there’s another MRA who thinks abortion is an unmitigated evil, which in essence means that they think pregnant women should be forced to give birth to babies they don’t want. The guy behind The Life Zone evidently thinks this way. And so does one New Mexican pro-lifer named Greg Fultz, who has launched a bizarre campaign designed to shame the woman who aborted what he thinks of as “his” baby – the highlight of which is a giant billboard depicting him holding what looks like the blackened carcass of a baby under the headline “This Would Have Been a Picture Of My 2-Month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To NOT KILL Our Child!”
I’ve been meaning to write about the Fultz thing for some time, but haven’t, because frankly the whole thing makes me depressed. Over the past day or so three separate Man Boobz readers have brought the subject up, so I figure it’s time to deal with the subject. My solution? I’m going to punt, and rather than post about it specifically I’m just going to point you to an excellent, and nicely sarcastic, post on the subject from Jill on Feministe.
Since Jill wrote that post, Fultz has been ordered by a judge to take the billboard down or face jail; he says he won’t. Details here.
NOTE: I originally ended this post with a 1200 word dissertation spelling out my take on abortion. But reading it back over again I realized that many of the points I made in it had already been made, in many cases more deftly, by various commenters in yesterday’s 800-plus comment thread (which actually stayed on the topic for the first several hundred comments, until more or less everything that needed to be said on the subject had been said). The tl;dr summary: her body, her choice. “Paper abortions” only work if the government is willing to step in to make up for the loss of child support, and that isn’t going to happen in the US any time soon. (And I don’t see many MRAs calling for increased support for single moms.)
So instead of abortion, let’s talk about Fultz. What a dick.
Someone may have mentioned this before, but I’m just going to leave this here….
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126985072
Forgive me for saying so, Alex, but your father sounds rather Fultz-ish.
Johnny
And therein lies a problem. Maybe a better term should be “My Choice” instead of Pro Choice.
Bodily autonomy is a problem?
Titfortat, what do you want?
In the event of an unplanned pregnancy when the woman wants to terminate and the man does not, what do you thinks should happen?
Just put your cards on the table.
Don’t bother asking T4T a straight up question. His whole schtick consists of asking vague disingenuous questions & trying to trip people up. He’s not interested in honestly and clearly laying out his own opinions — he might actually have to face direct criticism, then, and worse, respond to it!
I think I remember that about his previous posts but all of this coy pussy-footing gets on my tits.
The world is messy, most pregnancies -even of married couples- are unplanned and in the vast majority of cases couples/partners/people who hooked up once or twice do in fact sit down and talk about what’s going to happen. I’m a realist and, as such, I know that these aren’t always respectful, productive conversations where both parties bring their best selves to the table. The conversations following an unplanned pregnancy run the gamut from “Oh shit!” to “Hot Damn!” but generally, everyone gets to express themselves.
So, again, Titfortat: in the event of an impasse, in either direction, what do you think should happen?
Have the courage of your convictions.
I’ll bet you a dozen donuts and the coffee to go with ’em that T4T responds to your comment with something about woman-on-man domestic violence. Or about how feminists should stop using the word ‘patriarchy’, because it’s too intimidating for men, or something.
Gee, and his answer was
*crickets*
What a surprise.
Her body, her choice, her responsibility.
Not ideal, but surely the least unfair solution given the alternatives.
T4T does this on my blog, too–sells himself as an independent thinker just asking the tough questions and stretching everyone past their comfort zone, then somehow he always ends up with hardline MRA conclusions.
By the way, some men *can* get pregnant. 😀
Holly
No, no, no. You just label me because it makes you more comfortable to fit me in a box. As far as answering absolutely what should be done is impossible. My issue is the fact that presently it is absolute, in other words, a father has no say regardless of the situation. I believe in certain situations that is a travesty. Autonomy is great after the fact. It leaves the choice, regardless of how hard, for only one person.
Be gentle everyone.
What the fuck is this ridiculous word salad? You come into the tail end of the conversation, tsk-tsking the fact that men don’t have “a say”, refuse to clarify exactly what you mean and then run off when asked. There aren’t “presently” absolutes. Pregnancy is an absolute, “presently”, in the past, and for the forseeable future. When an unplanned pregnancy occurs the woman in question is fucking pregnant. Hence, the term pregnancy. A decision has to be made. She doesn’t have the option of extending the 1st trimester indefinitely while everyone figures out how they feel and issues of autonomy are hashed and re-hashed.
So, once again, dispense with the bull shit and lay your cards out. When an unplanned pregnancy occurs, In the event of an impasse in either direction what do you think should happen? What do you want to happen?
In other words, JAQing off.
nobi
My, my you are an angry one arent ya. In the event of an unplanned pregnancy the woman should have final say. In the event it is a planned pregnancy between two consenting adults it is not that clear cut. My issue is the fact that presently the absolute decision in the second scenario does not allow any input from the father. That is a problem.
Johnny
You are the master for the insulting comeback. Im sure you make tons of friends with your keen wit.
Define “input”.
In the end, somebody has to decide. Should the decision be made by the pregnant person or the non-pregnant person?
Johnny
I am not sure exactly how to implement it. It is obvious that it has the potential to be thoroughly abused. The point Im trying to make is that presently it is beyond the grasp of the father who truly wants his child and is left with no opportunity to even discuss alternate outcomes. Remember Im talking about two consenting adults that previously agreed(no accident) to have a child and one unilaterally decides to end it. I know in the black in white world it is so much easier to say “my body, my choice”.
T4T, I notice a tendency to use obfuscatory language. “The point Im trying to make is that presently it is beyond the grasp of the father who truly wants his child and is left with no opportunity to even discuss alternate outcomes.” By “discuss alternative outcomes” do you mean talk the woman out of the abortion? Do you mean to say that it is impossible for a man to talk a woman out of having an abortion? Or by “discuss alternative outcomes” do you mean force the woman to give birth?
Also, the “black in (sic) white world” is better known as ” the real world”. That’s the world where a decision has to be made and somebody has to make it. You seem very very determined to deny that there is in fact a decision to be made and that someone has to make it.
So, time to give a straight answer if you can. Should the non-pregnant person have a veto over the pregnant person’s decision? If you don’t think this is a simple yes-or-no question, please explain why in simple declarative sentences using simple, unambiguous words.
You know swearing isn’t necessarily indicative of anger. Some people just have potty mouths. And being disengenuos and condescending isn’t masked by a bullshit veneer of avuncularity.
So, just to be clear, your joining this conversation and all your woeful tongue clucking about men with “no say” is for the men in committed relationships whose partners unilaterally and without explanation decide to terminate their previously planned and hoped for pregnancy.
The women who greet their husbands/boyfriends at the end of the day and say “Surprise honey! I had an abortion today. I know you were all excited about painting the nursery but now we can go on a tour of vineyards next weekend!”
This is the scenario you choose to present to pretend to answer the question.
Alrighty then.
Johnny
My words are careful to show that it is a certain way right now and I believe in certain situations that is unfair/unequal. I do think that maybe contracts could allow both parties an even playing field. Does that mean the wife/partner could be held accountable if she decided to bow out, sure. Presently if a husband decides to exit he will be accountable if the mother decides to have the child. The law determines that. Presently there is no law in place the other way. By the way, the world I live in(real) has lots of grey in it.
nobi
You talked to me, I didnt address you.
Problem is, you’re wanting to level a playing field where there is an immutable area of unevenness, through no fault of either partner in a M/F relationship; when both partners are discussing the prospect of having a child/children, they don’t also discuss and come to an agreement, which could be written into the contract, about which one will be the one who gestates.
I’m also curious as to if there was a law in place to make the wife/partner accountable if she decides to bow out, what do you see as being the reparation (for lack of better terminology) that she would owe, according to that law?
Pam
There are no easy answers to your questions. I can honestly say I dont know. But does that mean the questions shouldnt be asked? My initial comment on this was about how much of a moron Fultz was. He definately isnt someone we need to be asking in regards to these matters.