Among those MRAs who are actually willing to acknowledge that women actually suffered oppression in the past, you sometimes find this argument: “Sure, things were bad for women back then – in the 1950s, or 1890, or whenever — but these days women don’t suffer from sexism. It’s men who are the real victims.”
This argument not only flies in the face of, you know, reality; it also reflects a naïve and simplistic understanding of how prejudice works, and why it persists. Misogyny, like other prejudices, is deeply rooted; it’s been around for literally thousands of years, and permeates culture and cultural/social/political institutions. The idea that a couple of decades of feminism have been enough to eradicate centuries-old attitudes and beliefs is, if you know anything at all about history or sociology or psychology, simply absurd.
How persistent is prejudice? A recent article in Slate looks at a historical study of anti-Semitism in Germany. As Ray Fisman notes in the Slate article, the study found that:
Communities that murdered their Jewish populations during the 14th-century Black Death pogroms were more likely to demonstrate a violent hatred of Jews nearly 600 years later. A culture of intolerance can be very persistent indeed.
Let’s just let that sink in for a second: Six. Hundred. Years. The noxious ideas of anti-Semites in the 14th century deeply affected what their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren believed (and did) when the Nazis rolled into town six centuries later. (I’m assuming an average 4 generations per century here; if that’s an incorrect assumption you may need to add or subtract a handful of “greats.”)
Here are more details, from the study’s abstract:
This paper uses data on anti-Semitism in Germany and finds continuity at the local level over more than half a millennium. When the Black Death hit Europe in 1348-50, killing between one third and one half of the population, its cause was unknown. Many contemporaries blamed the Jews. Cities all over Germany witnessed mass killings of their Jewish population. At the same time, numerous Jewish communities were spared. We use plague pogroms as an indicator for medieval anti-Semitism. Pogroms during the Black Death are a strong and robust predictor of violence against Jews in the 1920s, and of votes for the Nazi Party. In addition, cities that saw medieval anti-Semitic violence also had higher deportation rates for Jews after 1933, were more likely to see synagogues damaged or destroyed in the ‘Night of Broken Glass’ in 1938, and their inhabitants wrote more anti-Jewish letters to the editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer.
As Fisman notes,
Changing any aspect of culture—the norms, attitudes, and “unwritten rules” of a group—isn’t easy. Beliefs are passed down from parent to child—positions on everything from childbearing to religious beliefs to risk-taking are transmitted across generations.
You can read more about the details of the study on Slate; the actual study is available here.
EDITED TO ADD: And, on a lighter note, here’s what happens when a “white-men-are-the-real-victims” dude (who clearly has been reading about pick-up artistry) goes a-courtin’ on OkCupid.
EDITED AGAIN: Added more details from the study’s abstract.
A couple of off-topic poems because my brain kept chewing on the “MRA” + “poetry” prompt.
A limerick:
If you’re a misogynist rube,
you’d better invest in some lube,
the better to pass
your head from your ass
before you appear on manboobz.
And a triolet:
Those hateful, horrid pretty girls,
they spit and spit and spit on me.
They waste their charms on alpha churls,
those hateful, horrid pretty girls.
Before such swine, they cast their pearls
while I’m denied their sweet pussy.
Those hateful, horrid pretty girls,
they spit and spit and spit on me.
Churls!
I had to look that one up. I’m going to have to start using it.
And not in a sexy way, either.
David, don’t be silly! You and I both know that white heterosexual men are oppressed! They had their position of “default person” taken away, which is totally discrimination! And it’s all because of women, feminists, non-whites and non-heterosexual people! Thank goodness we have MRAs around to try to keep the ol’ status quo in check.
Ugh. I nearly vomited writing that, even though it was sarcasm. I hate MRA “logic.”
Its the OPs view thats simplistic actually, the people that understand that oppression and power wasn’t divided along the lines of gender have the more realistic view point.
As for anti- semiticism in Germany, all the Jews were oppressors and all the Germans were the oppressed, thats pretty simplistic too, don’t you think?
Dave, women were never oppressed! They were protected and cherished by men who selflessly did all the work, hunted all the mammoths, and died in all the wars–all while building civilization. And how do they repay us? By taking away our kids, making us pay child support, and spitting on us at every opportunity! Also, they falsely accuse us of rape and domestic violence. And they have the nerve to call us misogynists!
There. Did I cover everything?
I love when MRAs claim that misogyny is a reaction to feminism. The most misogynistic countries are the ones with the least feminism: Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.
No, feminism did not cause you to hate us wimz. Your Mummy issues did.
Let’s have an Oprah Winfrey style pity party! One, two, three…….AAAAAAAHHHHHHH.
Muchmorethan
Did you know that the muslim world was quite hedonistic and experimented with gender equality and sexual liberation at its peak?
They blamed it for the social collapse, and responded with sexual oppression of everyone, and very strict rules to atone for their sins.
So, as the story from the Andalusian times goes, the misogny in Islam, did stem from a form of feminism.
I remember reading a book by Edward Rutherford about the expulsion of Jews from England (because how dare a money lender expect to be paid back when they do not accept Jesus as their lord and savior right? *gags*) and the scene was so bad it has stayed with me for years of a man helping a Jewish family with leaving England. At first everything is fine…then he leaves them on a beach that is covered in water at high tide so they all drown.
The Slate article points out how the constant influx of new ideas helps keep things from becoming violent. It also helps that the more stable a country is the less likely the people will hunker down and reject both outsiders and new ideas while clinging to traditions. That happened in Iraq after the fall of Saddam (or at least that is what I read happening.) Any change that happens too fast upsets people in general and it makes it less likely for things to actually remain changed.
But I do want to see what 1,300 tons of bombs do to a community’s level of hatred.
Nonsense, Jews weren’t really oppressed any more than women were. Those so-called “pogroms” were actually manufactured by the Rothchilds (not to be confused with the Rothschilds) to garner sympathy.
Oh God, I feel dirty. And not in a fun way.
Love the poetry, Mandolin.
Oneness of JuJu
Women in Arabic countries during and before Islam NEVER had the freedom of women in the West. Not even close. What you are talking about stems from powerful men having harems and the like. The men may have had a degree of sexual freedom. The women never did. And the degree to which the men did is debatable because it did not include the yeoman.
Bad example
“As for anti- semiticism in Germany, all the Jews were oppressors and all the Germans were the oppressed, thats pretty simplistic too, don’t you think?”
@Oneness of Juju
I honestly can not tell if you are being sarcastic.
One day we should have a poetry day in the comments. Nice stuff, Mandolin.
Also, I <3 okcupid. Without internet dating my love life would be so much harder. (heh. I said harder.)
@Elizabeth,
“But I do want to see what 1,300 tons of bombs do to a community’s level of hatred.”
Um…I’m not sure what that means, but I’m pretty sure I don’t like it. And the only “change” the US has really done for Iraq is given them a nice heavy dose or radiation and destroyed their infrastructure, not to mention rape everyone they could. Sorry if I misread what you wrote, but in terms of war, it really doesn’t sound good. Revenge (especially with bombs) is hardly the answer and sure as hell isn’t likely to improve even a relatively tolerant community tendency to hatred.
To the original post, about Germany, it’s actually interesting to note that the Nazis had to stifle the Left in order to more fully indoctrinate the German people who, while certainly possessed of the same anti-Semitism that racked Europe, were not initially willing to allow the Jews to be cruelly treated. For example, when Jews were forced to wear the yellow star, many Germans did public acts of kindness for them as a way of protest. That, however, soon vanished as the Nazi stranglehold as well as the war grew. Hitler led the people to believe the Jews were being “expelled”, a cruel “solution” in itself, but of course nowhere near the horrors that really happened. Basically, Nazi Germany could have been any country in Europe that was suffering similar hyperinflation after a humiliating defeat and in need of scapegoat. Hitler went to the right place at the right time. It’s really, really unfortunate that an event like that was what caused anti-Semitism to drop (and still not disappear altogether), and it would be very nice if we could see as large a drop in hatred towards women, people of colour, Asians, homosexuals, etc. before something like that happens again, to another group. Also important to note that women have already suffered a holocaust of sorts, given the inquisition, and homosexuals were also targeted in the Nazi holocaust. I don’t know that anybody learned from those tragedies. Maybe no one learned much from the Jewish tragedy either; it may just be that Jewish people are less easy to identify on sight or on behaviour than some other groups.
@Oneness of Juju,
I want to believe you have some kind of point there, but my idiot senses are tingling. I guess we had to have some replacement for MRAL *eye-roll*
Muchmorethan
No I’m not talking about “powerful men having harems and the like” lol. I’m talking about a period, the Andalusian times during which gender roles were relaxed, intoxication, poetry, song, orgies, dance and sexual liberation were prominent in the culture. A traditional song from the Andalusian times would often feature the female as the powerful figure and the male as a small voice in the back ground calling to her… you can still hear those songs.
Islamic culture suffered a collapse and they turned to the religious men, who prescribed very strict guidelines in text call Hadiph, praying and washing x5 times a day, women covering up, no alcohol, sexual repression …
Its not uncommon for civilizations to try some form of feminism and become hedonistic at their peak.
“A traditional song from the Andalusian times would often feature the female as the powerful figure and the male as a small voice in the back ground calling to her…”
Cultural songs do not constitute feminism. Women were not given equal status with men in Andalusia (Spain) at that time. Sexual liberation and feminism are not the same thing. Sexual liberation may be a part of feminism, but it can also exist where there is no feminism.
Orgies and sexual liberation also were a fixture in the late Roman Empire, but women were not given equal status with men here either.
Is your argument really that since there was some sexual liberation and gender bending in Spain during the Moorish period, that women enjoyed equal status with men and enjoyed the same freedoms as Western women? If it is, that is absurd. LOL!!!
No, misogyny has always existed, with or without feminism. Most misogynistic men have a massive inferiority complex and were probably raised by an overbearing, neurotic mother or they got their heart broken and cannot recover from the experience. And that is all there is to it.
As an addendum intended for everyone and not just Oneness:
I’ve seen men from the Spearhead and other MRA sites list references to certain passages from philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzche. After one does this, the others will ask where he got this quote, what book, what time period it is from, etc., etc. They then read the passages to justify their views and quote them ad infinitum.
The point being is that these men are OBSESSED with proving women inferior. IT CONSUMES THEIR ENTIRE LIFE! The spectre of WOMAN always casts her shadow upon them and their pathetic attempts to throw arrows at this paradigm is quite amusing to watch. If it was not so pathetically sad, it would actually be funny.
To these misogynists, women are enemies hiding in every corner, behind every bush. They warm themselves by the fire of misogyny with their fellow brainwashed cretins to feel better about themselves.
The Texas Exoneree project
http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/freedom-fighters
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Texas_Exonerees_Urge_Legislation_to_Prevent_Wrongful_Convictions.php
Connected with Project innocence, and to an effort set up by the Dallas District Attorney, Craig Watkins, and supported by the men who have been found innocent.
I’m sure some MRA types will declare this all evidence of wimminz evilness, but I’d also toss in the police who did not follow best practices for eyewitness testimony, and the all white system which in Texas has spent years railroading black men into prison without giving a damn about sort of legal or ethical principles.
So those looking to support efforts to exonerate men unfairly convicted can support this project.
The persistince of “prejudice” is easily explicable by the fact that human nature–especially our more disagreeable traits, such as dishonesty, extreme present orientation, laziness and shiftlessness, hotility to other group(s)–such as Jews for gentiles e.g. ‘goyim”, or “cattle”–aggressive attitudes of superiority and exclusiveness, different levels of law abidingness and civil engagement, etc. Each of these traits is universal, meaning that EVERY group has them, but at widely varying levels! Even when a very few individuals in a targeted group display such (mis)behavior, when the number of people grow to the millions, over generations of time, extremely bitter and malevolent feelings will evolve, and often spread, not only from generation to generation, but from one group to another (especially if the new group(s) have the misfortune to suffer sustained encounters and proximity with the majority in question.
PS–That is why the slogan used to attack prejudice–“they are not ALL like that” is so ineffective! Even a small number and percentage of misbehaving or evil members of the offending group over enough time will make association with the majority so painful that it doesn’t MATTER if they are ‘ALL” like that or not! Enough are so that it doesn’t matter!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller
Alex, in the article it mentions that the town of Würzburg was completely flattened, almost all of the men being removed/killed/no longer there after WWII because it was extremely heavily bombed. So the question becomes-if you have a town totally destroyed where a large portion of the population is gone-will the hatred of Jews remain?
The Iraqis did not deserve what happened to them and they are not the ones to whom I was referring. Sorry about the confusion. 🙁
During the Golden age of Islam, there was not a “feminist movement” as per our modern understanding, but reformers argued for women’s rights to education, property and spiritual achievement. Women were employed in a wide range of commercial activities and diverse occupations. Female farmers, merchants, tradespeople, investors, doctors, brokers, lenders and scholars were not uncommon. In fact, the proportion of female lecturers in many classical Islamic colleges was higher than in Western universities today.
However, women did not enjoy all the same rights and privileges as men did, even though reformers argued that they should. Women were more likely to audit classes rather than formally enroll in them, for example, and women speaking up in lecture was often poorly received. And if a woman did not belong to a learned or scholarly family, the realities of gender discrimination in her daily life would be much more harsh and oppressive.
The causes of the decline of the Islamic Golden Age are not precisely known or universally agreed upon, but certainly had much to do with invasions by Mongols and crusaders, and the destruction of libraries and madrasahs. While it is true that subsequent scholars, politicians and religious figures would suggest that this decline was exacerbated by societal “decadence” in their call for a return to austerity and “traditional values,” claiming that “the misogny in Islam, did stem from a form of feminism,” is a bizarre oversimplification.
Muchmore
I never said women had equal status with men as we know it, I said that they experimented with gender roles and sexual liberation as best that they could, its a characteristic of a civilization at its peak, we can take it to new levels with birth control and other technology, you cant have equal status as we know it without technology and modern inventions like the welfare state.
Elizabeth
There is a clever point in there, that you don’t get.
Ok, I’m going to leave you all now, in your emperors new clothes.
I think Oneness of Ju Ju is our new resident troll.
The point I was thinking about with the fact that the men (raised to be Manly Men Who Kill Things because that is what Manly Men do…) were no longer around, would women evidence the same level of hatred (and ensuing violence that can happen from said hatred?)
Elizabeth:
“I think Oneness of Ju Ju is our new resident troll.”
Lets try to be a little fair, I don’t think Oneness is saying something that far off base… She’s just making some bad equivocations.
Oneness:
Feminism, at least as I understand it, involves equality for women in society. Why you seem to want to call “intoxication, poetry, song, orgies, dance and sexual liberation” feminism is a bit beyond me. Like others have said, a society can be sexually free/hedonistic without giving women equality. The two are quite different.
Birth control! Welfare state! Clearly Ju Ju has a brilliant insight into everything that s/he is just choosing not to share.
“There is a clever point in there, that you don’t get.
Ok, I’m going to leave you all now, in your emperors new clothes.”
Ok, or you could say that. C’mon Oneness, I was on your side!
Off topic slightly, what’s with the fancy new input boxes? Change is scary!