There are really few things quite so entertaining as watching people as ignorant as a box of pig shit offering their opinions on literature. Especially when the people in question are W.F. Price and his gang of misfit boys at The Spearhead, who are back for yet another take on the whole Women’s Lit question.
At this point I’ve run out of jokes on this particular subject, so I’m just going to let Mr. Price dig his own hole here. Here he is, trying to argue that feminism has made terrible lady writers even terribler.*
[I]t appears that since feminism’s triumph, female achievement in the higher arts has deteriorated substantially. When women no longer have to excel to be read and recognized, but simply have to advertise the fact that they are women to be celebrated for dubious achievements, they won’t put as much effort into producing anything of quality. So the sorry state of women today is a direct result of feminist privilege, which absolves them of all responsibility and deflects any criticism. …
Yes, feminism has wrecked Western womanhood, reducing the young women of today to spoiled brats who can’t take a hint of criticism, and immediately turn to authorities to bolster their self-esteem. No woman can be too fat to be beautiful, too dense to be intelligent, or too dull to be creative. They are all equally super-duper goddesses, before whom men must genuflect and heap up mounds of praise.
Price of course gives no examples to back up any of his, er, “arguments,” and somehow I suspect he hasn’t actually read any fiction written by women beyond an odd title or two he might have been assigned in high school. I wonder if Price could even name a half-dozen living woman novelists without having to resort to Google — excluding JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyer and Jackie Collins (who hasn’t heard of them?) and Harper Lee (who wasn’t assigned To Kill a Mockingbird in high school?).
*I am aware that “terribler” is not a real world.
Just a brief run-down of the female authors on my bookshelf (which is enormous and my father disparagingly calls the lending library):
Banana Yoshimoto
Frances Hodgson Burnett
P.L. Travers
Julie Powell
Amanda Marcotte
Audrey Niffeneger
M. M. Kaye
J. K. Rowling
Billie Letts
Susan Cooper
Donna Jo Napoli
Jane Jacobs
Diana Wynne Jones
Mary Stewart
Noel Streatfeild
Rebecca Wells
Helen Fielding
Janet Evanovich
L. M. Montgomery
Amy Tan
Jane Yolen
Suzanne Collins
Anne McCaffery
Eileen Dunlop
E. Nesbit
Pamela Ribon
Mary Norton
Madeleine L’Engle
Jung Chang
Eva Ibbitson
Meg Cabot
Marion Zimmer Bradley
Maeve Binchy
Diane Duane
Sheri S. Tepper
Robin McKinley
Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Pamela Dean
Carol Kendall
Elizabeth Winthrop
Susan Faludi
Charlotte Joko Beck
Gertrude Chandler Warner
Jill Conner Browne
Ursula K. LeGuin
Lois Lowery
This is just me looking at my bookshelves and writing down names. These are the books I have purchased. I’m perfectly willing to do a similar list for the male writers on my bookshelf, but just look at how many that is! Yes, I tend towards YA and fantasy, but even still! About halfway though the list I started getting amazed.
Clare Winger Harris
C. L. Moore
Amelia Reynolds Long
Leigh Brackett
Judith Merril
Julian May
D. C. Fontana
Vonda N. McIntyre
A book is good or it sucks. Why you people make such a big deal out of if a man or woman wrote something is ludicrous. And people like ithiliana with her “random memory dump” of 30 female authors, what a joke. Yea, like you didn’t do a search of female writers
The vast majority of people buy a book by reading the general overview on the back. If the book was good and is part of a series they might look at the authors name to find the rest of the series. If the book sucks it gets thrown away after chapter 5. Most people don’t know or care who the author of the book it is they’re reading. What kind of a person reads a book and gives it extra value if it’s written by a woman? Or only reads books written by women?
Than of course you have ithiliana prattling on about her very feminist authors. I guess that automatically makes them a good read. What could they possibly write about? Bad, stupid, violent men and good, smart, enlightened women. Hell any TV sitcom, movie or newspaper article will give ya the same thing. Maybe a revised history lesson where where men systematically abused women; their wives daughters, oh hell just about anyone who was a woman. It doesn’t really matter what a man did he was a fucking oppressor. And of course the women carried on against all odds of the evil men. This knowlege is apparently passed on from vagina to vagina. Yikes what a bunch of self serving tripe.
NWO:
“Why you people make such a big deal out of if a man or woman wrote something is ludicrous.”
Way to miss the point entirely, friend. We are not. In fact most people here would probably be with you that “A book is good or it sucks.” (within reason, of course, there isn’t a black-or-white quality to books) We’re responding to the notion that all women authors are terrible, or that some MRAs refuse to read anything by a woman strictly because they are a woman. The response is to list a bunch of female authors that some posters have found particualrly good.
The comments here don’t exist in a vacuum, NWO, are you really gonna completely ignore any context when trying to debate them?
The vast majority of people buy a book by reading the general overview on the back.
While standing in the checkout line at the grocery store. Do they have Star Wars novels there?
I’m guessing every single statement in that comment isn’t true. The NWOslave Ratio lives!
kirbywarp, Thats exactly the point. Everyone one of you is going online and picking random women autors who more than likely none of you have read. Amandajane5 has a list of women authors thats a novel in itself.
Katz, I’m reading a star wars book right now, I don’t even know who the author is and I don’t care. The book seems decent enough so far, the 7 hours flying/layover to Texas I read it the whole time. Normally I fall asleep instantly as soon as the plane takes off. And ya know what? The star wars books have maybe a hundred different authors and I don’t care if their men or women. Only you and the rest of you ilk do.
Hmmm…
A book is good or it sucks.
False.
And people like ithiliana with her “random memory dump” of 30 female authors, what a joke. Yea, like you didn’t do a search of female writers
Difficult to verify, but probably false. Anyway if it’s her word against his I’ll take ~NWO any day.
The vast majority of people buy a book by reading the general overview on the back.
God, I hope not. Anyway I don’t know anyone who does this.
If the book was good and is part of a series they might look at the authors name to find the rest of the series.
True.
If the book sucks it gets thrown away after chapter 5.
False for most people, I think. Most people I’ve talked to will finish a book even if it’s bad. Of course most people I know like reading.
Most people don’t know or care who the author of the book it is they’re reading.
Indubitably false. Most people at least look at the front cover of the book they’re reading. NWO, however, apparently reads the back and then flips straight to page 1.
Than of course you have ithiliana prattling on about her very feminist authors. I guess that automatically makes them a good read. What could they possibly write about? Bad, stupid, violent men and good, smart, enlightened women. Hell any TV sitcom, movie or newspaper article will give ya the same thing. Maybe a revised history lesson where where men systematically abused women; their wives daughters, oh hell just about anyone who was a woman. It doesn’t really matter what a man did he was a fucking oppressor. And of course the women carried on against all odds of the evil men. This knowlege is apparently passed on from vagina to vagina. Yikes what a bunch of self serving tripe.
Meaningless rant.
Judgment: 1 true, 5 false, 1 unverifiable.
@zombie no : Maybe I should! It’s something that pops up a lot in sports discussion and books and articles. I’ve written about it too (the intersection between culture and sports and stuff like that rly interests me a lot xD as well as the business of sports 😀 ) so I think I will want to check that post out :3 Thank you for the recc! :]
NWO, some of us read. Some of us read a lot.
I have 4 five foot tall book cases, each with five shelves, which are so packed with books that the paperbacks are double shelved (one row on the back of the shelf, a second row on the front of the shelf, and more paperbacks stacked sideways on top of them). I also have a 7 foot long 3 shelf low bookcase (as stuffed full as the tall bookcases) and another large built-in bookcase in my bedroom. There is also a pile of books by my bedside AND boxed books in storage. I’ve read all of these books (and liked them enough to read them more than once…the ones I don’t like or won’t reread, I give away).
It’s pretty easy to come up with at least 30 names of female authors off the top of my head. No googling required.
My guess is that you’re just not that into reading, or you’d already know and understand this.
Yes, knowledge is literally passed on from vagina to vagina. That’s exactly how the lady cabal passes on our secret plans to keep men oppressed. how could you have possibly guessed that?
Here are some more living women novelists I don’t think anyone else has mentioned yet:
Joan Didion
AS Byatt
PD James
Alison Lurie
Iris Murdoch
Margaret Drabble
Erica Jong
Joyce Carol Oates
Pagan Kennedy
Barbara Ehrenreich (yes, she’s written at least one novel)
I’m much more of a nonfiction guy, so I’ll mention one totally awesome living woman nonfiction writer too:
Janet Malcolm
Oh, and just so you know, NWO, when I choose a book to read the first thing I look for is the book’s author; I suspect that’s the case with most readers, and why bookstores tend to stock fiction by the author’s name. I don’t choose books based on gender, but on whether or not I think I’ll enjoy them. But many of the books I choose to read are in fact written by women. I know, shocking, right?
No need to do a search online. I’ve read books (multiple books, in some cases) by all of these writers except (I confess) AS Byatt and PD James. (I’ve seen awesome movies based on books by both of them — Angels and Insects (Byatt) and Children of Men (James). Does that count?)
Why do you assume people here have to do online searches to come up with these names? People do actually read books by women without being forced to. Heck, I’ve seen them do it. In public, even!
@zombie I can’t seem to find the post 🙁 But I’ve read thru a bunch of their sports stuff and I love their PoV and opinions on the stuff they write about 🙂
I haven’t thought about Noel Streatfield since I was 10, but I have lived my entire life under the assumption that she was a grandfatherly looking man. Thanks, amandajane5! I want to buy a buncha Shoe books all of a sudden.
Living female authors who I’ve enjoyed recently*:
Lorrie Moore
Sandra Cisneros
Alice Walker
Maya Angelou
Nicole Krauss
Maude Barlow
Diana Preston
Beryl Bainbridge
Alice Munro
Katherine Dunn
Hanan al-Shaykh
Susan Orlean
Sara Paretsky
Edwidge Danticat
Anne Lamott
*Recently meaning in the past couple years.
Katz
If a book sucks it’s not good. This is true.
ithiliana went online a grabbed a bunch of feminist authors who other feminist’s spoke highly of. Definitely true. Hell stop off at feminisite where every week some “author” of the sites reccomends some feminist book, and they all have one thing in common. They’re AMAZING. The word amazing gets thrown about with amazing frequency.
The people I know and theres lots and we all read have stated quite clearly they throw out books when they suck. You’re telling me you’d continue to read a book that completely sucked? Why? To feel the suckitude.
No one looks at authors other than the biggies who’ve made a name for themselves by consistently writing good books. This is definitely true.
Meaningless rant. Tell than. What does a strident feminist write about? My guess would be #1)oppression #2)women are good #3) men are bad #4)history revised according to feminist theory 5)Lets no forget the patriarchy.
I’m battin 100% here.
People in general:
I retract my statement on “a book is good or it sucks.” It is a false statement. What I was going for was more like people judge the worth of a book by its contents.
@NWO:
So, its exactly the point that you’re missing the point? Not sure what you’re agree with me on, since I specifically said that the posters here are not saying a book is good soley because of its author.
“The comments here don’t exist in a vacuum, NWO, are you really gonna completely ignore any context when trying to debate them?” Wait, you have met slavey before, right?
Anyway, to sum up, Price: “Furthermore, it appears that since feminism’s triumph, female achievement in the higher arts has deteriorated substantially.”
David/commenters: “Really? How about [list of great authors who are women and contemporary].”
NWO: “WHY ARE YOU ALL FOCUSING ON GENDER? IT’S ALWAYS GENDER WITH YOU PEOPLE!”
end scene
Jodi (welcome to man boobz!), apparently NWO does read a decent amount; it’s just that his idea of great literature is — quite literally — Star Wars novels written by, well, whoever it is that writes Star Wars novels.
Also, “ithiliana went online a grabbed a bunch of feminist authors who other feminist’s spoke highly of. Definitely true.”
All hail the omniscient NWO! He knows all!
“The comments here don’t exist in a vacuum, NWO, are you really gonna completely ignore any context when trying to debate them?”
I’ve come to the conclusion that NWOaf is like a Magic 8 Ball. Give him a shake and a pre-packaged rant pops out.
Here are a few authors I haven’t seen mentioned yet:
Margaret Ball
Ellen Kushner
Vonda McIntyre
Janet Kagan
Lisa Mason
Lousie Marley
Martha Wells
Carole Nelson Douglas
Sara Teasdale
Baroness Orczy
I had to move recently and all my books are in storage, so these are just some of the highlights.
Sadly, Iris Murdoch is no longer alive. There was a beautiful movie about her death, though. So at least we’ve got that.
For my money, “The Sea, the Sea” is one of the top-ten most enjoyable books of the past 50 years. Love me some Iris.
And I love Bee and her little self serving cudo’s to her own genius….”I haven’t thought about Noel Streatfield since I was 10″
Absolutely priceless. Why I haven’t thought about the disertation I gave to my nursery school class about Homers oddyssey which I read in the womb in years. Ahhh those were the days.
What’s a “strident” feminist? xD what defines that xD Which authors are feminists? Are we assuming all female authors are? Is AJ Pitt a feminist? I’ve seen anti-feminists bash him until they found out he’s male, so apparently there are ppl who care about the author’s gender and not the content xD (tho it seems like ppl here are trying to say the opposite, and that they too are “I like this cuz it’s great and the author happens to be male/female/catlike, but there is yet another chasm of misunderstanding 🙁 ) Somebody sounds like they don’t KNOW what feminist authors write, and is guessing.. maybe they should read some? (again who defines what a feminist is… if a feminist is defined by “one who writes stories about man hating women who kill men” then you are kinda finding what you want to by defining it as such xD and there’s SO MANY comics like that written by guys and each one feminists (like moi) just HATE so… xD )
You’re batting 100% b/c everybody else is playing hockey and you’re standing out in the batter’s box by yourself XD I guess you could also be batting 0% too xD
Personally I myself am a Trident feminist 😀 Both the gum and the big fork of uber sea doom! 😀 It’s time to kick Black Manta’s butt and chew minty gum! 😀
A book is good or it sucks.
It’s quite possible for a book to be good in some ways and bad in others. For instance, Sarah Dunant doesn’t have a terribly good technique and sometimes comes up with an awkward sentence – but the overall story she tells is usually pretty good.
Why you people make such a big deal out of if a man or woman wrote something is ludicrous.
I’ll believe you’re sincere about this when you link me to the comment you made on the Spearhead discussion disparaging women writers saying this exact same thing.
And people like ithiliana with her “random memory dump” of 30 female authors, what a joke. Yea, like you didn’t do a search of female writers
Some people are good with names. I could glance over to my bookshelf and give you a long list of authors, too.
The vast majority of people buy a book by reading the general overview on the back. If the book was good and is part of a series they might look at the authors name to find the rest of the series.
You’re completely ignoring everything else that leads up to the book being on the shelf for a potential reader to pick up. Does the writer have enough time in between her career and family obligations to sit down and write a novel? Since women still shoulder the majority of domestic chores and child-raising in addition to maintaining a career, this can be challenging. Does she have a good chance at finding an agent? A good agent? Does that agent have a chance at shopping her book around to the publishers? If the publishers take the book, how much do they spend on publicity? You know, scheduling book tours and sending free copies out to reviewers and the like. When it comes to that back of the book blurb and the cover picture, how much money are they willing to shell out to the artist and copywriter?
Then, and only then, does it arrive on the bookshelf.
If the book sucks it gets thrown away after chapter 5.
Not necessarily – I read an entire trilogy that was godawful, mostly because I was hoping that something alluded to in the prologue of the first book would turn out to be true by the end. It wasn’t, and I kind of regret all the time I wasted on the books.
Than of course you have ithiliana prattling on about her very feminist authors. I guess that automatically makes them a good read. What could they possibly write about? Bad, stupid, violent men and good, smart, enlightened women.
In Lilith Saintcrow’s Nightside series, the main character is a very emotionally flawed woman, whose nemesis is an incredibly terrifying and awful sorceress. Her greatest support is her boyfriend, who’s painted as an all-around good guy. And that’s just one instance of a woman novelist writing something other than that. In fact, the only author I can think of who actually has gender-divided characters like what you describe is Robert Jordan, and I don’t know many fans of his.
NWOslave: Noel Streatfield writes children’s books. You’ve got google right there. Use it.