So Esquire magazine recently posted a list of “The 75 Books Every Man Should Read” on their website. Esquire being Esquire – that is to say, a men’s magazine that had its glory days in the era of Mad Men and that seems to be aimed mostly at old farts (and aspiring old farts) — only one book of the 75 was written by a woman. (That’s 98.67% male, for those of you with lady brains who can’t do the math.)
The internet being the internet, some people noticed that the list was a wee bit heavy on the dudes, even for a men’s magazine, and pointed this out. The bloggers at the Joyland Publishing blog suggested that while the books on Esquire’s list were “mostly fantastic,” it might behoove men to pick up a book or two written by a woman once in a while. And so, with the help of some of their readers, the two assembled a list of “250 Books By Women All Men Should Read.” (Why 250 and not, say, 75? Because they got a lot of suggestions.)
Here’s a little one-question quiz for you all: What title did W. F. Price at The Spearhead give his post on the controversy?
A) “Some Great Suggestions for Books by Women You Guys Might Want to Read.”
B) “Did You Know There Are Female Authors Besides The Chick That Wrote Harry Potter?”
C) “Feminist Publishers: Force Men to Read Women’s Lit”
Yep, the correct answer is C, of course. Apparently a couple of bloggers suggesting some books by women that men “should” read is some kind of Gestapo-like imposition upon men by “Feminist Publishers.” Price grouses:
[I]it strikes me as rather mean-spirited of females in the publishing industry to denounce even ineffectual efforts to introduce men to literature. By all accounts, publishing has come to be dominated by women, and men are reading far fewer books than women these days. Given this state of affairs, you’d think that the women in the industry might be a bit gracious and let the boys pick and choose which titles interest them.
But of course that won’t do, because feminists must find fault with any and everything men are involved in. …
The implication [of the Joyland Publishing blog post] is that men should be forced by political pressure to read female writers (sometimes these feminists come off as whiny, annoying girlfriends complaining that “he just won’t listen to me!”).
Or, you know, it might just be that the writers of the blog post, and those who wrote in with suggestions, really enjoyed the books in question and thought that dudes might just enjoy them too. Sort of like when a friend tells you that you should totally watch the movie Dogtooth, because it is so fascinating and creepy and awesome. Or when I tell you right now that you should go watch Jane Austen’s Fight Club on Funny or Die.
Naturally, the comments from Spearheaders were even more ignorant and obtuse than Price’s post. The basic theme: Bitches can’t write for shit (as far as I know).
In case you think I am offering an unfair characterization of the, er, debate, here’s one Spearheader’s contribution to the discussion:
when a man says “no, I won’t read your literature”, you have to respect that, bitch.
And another’s:
I basically do not read anything a wimminz has written, not even in my favourite genre of science fiction, because every single time I have tried they have been unmitigated fucking crap full of feminazi girl power bullshit and emotional baggage and basically very little hard SF…
And still another’s:
I never read anything written by women unless it happens to be instructional and related to work. Pretty much all the fiction I’ve ever read is by and for males. If I read some non-fiction for fun it’s always got a male author. I realized a while back that my cd collection is about 98% male. When I was a kid I never thought about it, it just came naturally. Now that I’m older I intentionally avoid anything by women.
It’s always,er, instructive to see what some random guy who apparently reads mostly instructional manuals has to say about the literary controversies of the day.
There were, of course, more thoughtful analyses, like this earnest comment from the excitable, exclamation-point-happy David K. Meller:
Women write for an audience of their own level–to wit themselves! Most men are simply too intelligent to be interested in what passes for literature scribbled by women! …
Correct me if I am wrong, but is most woman’s “literature” one more kvetch klatsch of women–or girls–getting together to complain about, to defeat, or to evade the workings of us evil, letcherous, abusive, horrible M-E-N! There is no point in men reading such drivel …
There may be better days coming; when women are once again taught the arts of pleasing men, in their creating a comfortable environment for the chosen man in their lives, and when they again will use their ability to read to discover new and better ways to do this, and their ability to write to communicate these truths to others of their sex! Until that happens, literacy for women, much less dominance in authorship, editing, and publishing has been, and is, a BLOODY MESS for everyone, especially men!!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller
Yes, women should really only be allowed to read and write if they are reading or writing instructional manuals on how to cook and give better blow jobs, possibly at the same time.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!! to you too, good sir.
Speaking of which — the blowjob bit, not the PEACE AND FREEDOM!! — the commenter calling himself dragnet suggested that young men such as himself were simply too busy to read much of anything. They have other priorities:
The vast majority of my reading is for work, research, and classes. …
Frankly, I’d rather be getting laid than reading a novel after a grueling work week. The three or four hours I sometimes have free on the weekend when I’m not working or working out or sleeping or eating, I’d rather be out with my friends or getting serviced by whatever girl I’m with at the time.
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a penis, must be in want of some girl to service it.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!1!!
Anyway, ladies and manginas, any good lady books you want to suggest for the dudes of the world?
Also, most of the gossip that happens in the ladies’ room is likely to have more to do with ‘do I look okay?’ than anything else. Which you will automatically assume is evidence of women being shallow, but also probably has a lot to do that women are judged harshly on their appearance (such as your insistence that fat women are unworthy of love, no exceptions). Seriously, I’ve had more conversations about shoes than men in ladies’ rooms.
@MRAL if a) is the same, then aren’t you a douchbag too? Just checking. Not arguing or anything.
And how, precisely, is it the same? Especially since lot of people are paying Tucker for this book, while until NWO gets here I don’t think anyone’s said women get paid for it. And I reiterate, you have knowledge about the content of said gossip how?
“OK he is a douchebag, but no moreso than half the population.”
If half the population were dudebros who spent their life making disability/body type/gay/sexist jokes I’d believe you, but that’s not the case.
So, you were wrong on the internet, again. So lets just end it at that before this thread explodes from book club into the “MRAL defending the indefensible magic hour”.
Sorry, that was ambiguous. My second question what about the gossip and a published book being ‘pretty much the same’.
My apologies, but are we talking about this Tucker Max? I dunno, he seems like a fine old cha… oh dear…
Beth: I think the backstory is part of the things Lois worked into the story to make him 1: believable (I don’t think anyone does “evil” just for the sake of being “evil”), and 2: a character one could write about (i.e. complex).
That is going to make it possible for someone with any sense of empathy to see the likable aspects of the character, and so feel for them, even if one doesn’t like them.
And she did that very well with Bathori.
Tanith Lee! “Biting the Sun” is especially good.
Also Ann Petry, Dorothy L. Sayers, Dorothy Allison, Ngaio Marsh, P.C. Hodgell, C.J. Cherryh, Emma Bull, Ann Rule, and Kara Dalkey.
R. A. MacAvoy (another woman who had to write under a gender neutral name, so as to sell her work).
Emma Bull.
I do recall thinking Charles de Lint was a woman, for years. I read him about the time I started reading Emma’s stuff.
Pointless discussion. Reguardless of who writes them there either good or they suck. The vast majority of books fall into the category of too much taters not enough meat.
Best books of all time has to be…
1) george martin , game of thrones series. Beautifullly written, excellent storyline.
2) steven king, gunslinger series, however the last two books sucked. I thought desperation was excellent. The dome was alright and the cell was pretty good but the ending sucked.
3) Star Wars books are endless, Vong series was outstanding from multilpe authors.
There was a series of 3 terminator books that were pretty good and was made into a movie.
I couldn’t even finish the lord of the rings 1st book it dragged on so badly. Movies were great.
The problem is once you’ve read the really great books, thats what you use to judge the rest. I’ve left many a novel half finished as not being worth the effort.
Tom Clancy is a perfect example of too much taters.
Pavlov Checnernka picked up his AK47 with the maple stock he had installed as a boy, oiling it every night to bring out the natural luster. He disassemled it with loving care every night to ensure smooth operation. The scope was a browning knockoff be he had adjusted to pinpoint accuracy. The gun felt so natural as to be an extension of his arm. His father had taught him to hunt as a boy and he could shoot before he could even walk. He made his own bullets which carried doubly the firepower of a normal AK. To relieve the kick he’d installed stainless steel springs inside the last 6 inches of the stock.
Just shoot the fucking gun already.
Ayup. Whenever we women go into a restroom together, it’s to brag about all the times we’ve gotten men drunk, had sex with their barely-conscious bodies, then publicly humiliated them so everyone would know what dumb whores they were. Oh, and whatever the male equivalent of “cum dumpster” is, we say that a lot.
Damn, MRAL, you’ve got us down cold. Are you secretly a woman, or do you just hide out in ladies’ rooms a lot?
Also, NWO’s list of great literature is exactly what I would have guessed.
“Oh, and whatever the male equivalent of “cum dumpster” is, we say that a lot.”
Baby gravy boat? Submarine (filled with sea men)? Sperm whales? (whats with the nautical theme here…)
This conversation is egregiously missing Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.
I wonder if guys (and, for that matter, women) ever shy away from the female authors on that list just because of their horrid covers. I read an article once by a female author talking about how books by women get slapped with generic chick-lit covers, like a girl looking sadly out over a field, even when it has absolutely no connection to the actual story.
NWO, you’ve got to be a troll. I’ve enjoyed a Star Wars novel in my time, but the best literature? GTFO and read some Shakespeare.
Well, The Left Hand of Darkness (sci-fi) by Ursula K. Le Guin is pretty good, as is The Silver Wolf (fantasy) by Alice Borchardt. I also thoroughly enjoyed the Earth’s Children series by Jane Auel. Oh, and, of course, Interview with the Vampire by Anne Rice. And for any man who might possibly be interested in reading the King Arthur legend, may I recommend my favourite book of all, The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Also, MRAL, I’d actually be interested in talking books with you sometime in a… more slow-paced… format that this ridiculously fast-moving blog, since we have fairly similar tastes. The email’s [email protected] if you want to hit me up. Or not, whatever.
“This conversation is egregiously missing Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.”
!! I have that. Picked it up because the jacket was interesting but (funny that you mentioned it) also because the cover was really awesome looking. I admit I haven’t finished it yet, got distracted a little way through (2k mile move >.<), but it was a really good read for part of it, I admit.
Sure, my email address is [email protected], don’t hesitate. That goes for everyone who wants to talk books. None of my friends really read so I like talking with anyone interested.
^^Yes, it’s a great counterexample with a cool-looking cover.
^You should make some female friends. Lots of women like to read.
ozymandias, no doubt reading othello or a midnights summers dream makes you believe you’re classic literary critic of fine literature.
The truth is I’ve read many of the classics and the only thing I’ve ever enjoyed was maybe a little E. A. Poe or even neitzche. Quite honostly most of the classics were quite dull. Seriously if you haven’t read George Martins game of thrones series, (4 books) you don’t know what you’re missing. Of course if you just want to impress others with your superior knowlege of Shakespear, be my guest. We’re in awe of your knowlege of the classics.
*Bounces* I’m a literary critic! Well, I’m writing a PhD on fantasy literature…and I think the ‘genre fiction’ distinction is utter crap and all about making snooty value judgments about literature. Also, SF has some cred in literary criticism, fantasy lit not so much (though it’s improving). Just fyi.
I’m actually writing about Robert Jordan’s series right now – and I agree it’s crap (but it does pass the Bechdel test…which is kindof a big deal for fantasy lit published in the early 90s that isn’t by a self-consciously feminist author).
Oh, and Ami – the gender differences affirmed through magic thing? So totally true (and frustrating)! Also – the Aes Sedai in the Age of legends drilled into the Dark One’s prison because they wanted to get their hands on power that was not limited by gendered divides. Trying to subvert gender roles RELEASES THE DARK ONE. *shakes head*.
[Trigger warning – sexual violence]
Also, wanted to mention that in my feminist thesis I am writing at great length about how messed up it is that Queen Tylin forces herself on Mat at knifepoint, ties him to the bed and when he tries to escape sends guards to get him back…and this is all played for laughs. Bah at people who represent rape as *not rape*.
NWOslave, have you read the Odyssey?
Unfortunately I mostly read nonfiction books xD LOTS of sports books :3 (and books on history, social issues, and nething else that interests me :3 i love reading xD but I dun read a lot of fiction, unless it’s in comic form xD)
tho I DO like “Black Blade Blues” by J.A. Pitts :3 (I also like how ppl on Amazon.com assumed he was a woman cuz the hero is an awesome lesbian 😀 ) it was a bit rough in spots, but I rly had fun, and I love Sarah Beauhall as a char and her thoughts 😀 (Plus I love the dragon fight… and how hard it would be to fight a real live dragon, that just being around the searing heat means she needs skin grafts later.. :] )
Plus it has the most gorgeous cover 😀
But unfortunately, that’s about all I’ve read lately in terms of fiction xD (in the past I’ve read a ton of the WoT books as I said.. it’s my twilight xD I tried to read Vampire Diaries recently but got bored…) I can give non fiction sports books recommendations tho! Rly good ones but I dunno if nebody is sports interested here 🙂
A thought to help out MRAL (I wish I could talk w/ you but as I said, can’t rly 🙁 ) besides ppl talking to him (which I hope is helpful and the interaction helps take off the edge of stuff also 😀 and friends! :3 )
but is there like some way his interest in discussing books with ppl can be combined with the advice to join clubs or interact w/ ppl? 🙂 i dunno nething about what book clubs or other organizations are out there for his university, or area, or if ppl even go to book clubs or if there’s some other place, like a place online where ppl organize to meet and talk about books? 🙂 just throwing it out there in case anybody might have any ideas from that vein 😀
Spearhafoc, who is changing his nym, probably. Why? Will you enlighten me on my inferior literary tastes? I’ll go brush up on my Homer right now.