In various countries around the world, women and teenage girls are regularly groped while riding commuter trains. This, I suspect, is not news to most of you; indeed, I know one reader of this blog who’s had this happen to her. In Japan, one survey found that two-thirds of female passengers in their twenties and thirties had been groped. Because the problem is so prevalent in that country — and the authorities are so ineffective at controlling it – some train lines have instituted women-only train cars in an attempt to cut down on groping (and on false accusations of groping as well). “Women-only” train cars have also introduced, in a limited way, in India, where harassment of women in public – known as “Eve teasing” – is distressingly common.
So what’s more appalling – the fact that groping on trains is so common in Japan that two-thirds of young women commuters have had to endure it themselves, or the fact that a small number of train cars have been set aside for women in a fairly half-assed attempt to curtail some of this groping?
For a lot of MRAs, the latter. The subject came up on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit recently, inspiring some of the regulars to fulminate against this allegedly misandrist outrage. Fatalistic pulled out the n-word and this facile comparision:
Here’s what I’m seeing here: “At least we let you in the back of the bus, nigger.”
ExpendableOne, meanwhile, managed to work in a staggering number of standard-issue MRA complaints into this one sentence:
I think it’s discrimination and subjugation entirely based on misandry, negative male type-casting/stereotyping and anti-male heterophobia.
Ztakn seemed to suggest that it was all part of some oddly indirect money-making scheme on the part of, I guess, women:
To keep it short they exploit and propagate fears not only demonizing men in society but also terrorizing women and scaring the shit out of them making them more paranoid than they need to be.
And then they do it for money.
How would that work exactly?
1) Get groped
2) Set up women-only train cars
3) ???
4) Profit?
Given that the Men’s Rights subreddit is one of the few Men’s Rights forums online that is not completely overrun with misogynist fanatics, there were others who responded more reasonably. Alienblonde noted:
In Japan it’s a massive problem where school girls get groped by older males on trains in peak hour.
Happened to me in Europe too when I was back packing. Some old Spanish guy sat beside me and decided to feel me up.
Women shouldn’t have to deal with this and unfortunately, until it stops happening, I think [women only train cars are] justified.
Naturally, this being a Men’s Rights forum, she quickly found herself the focus of a game of “blame the victim.” Fatalistic accused her of “[j]ustifying discrimination with this all men are potential criminals feminist dogma.” When she pointed out that she was not, in fact, doing this, he moved on to castigating her for not making a public scene when she was groped:
You should out the people who actually do these things rather than treat the rest of us as criminals by default with disgusting bigoted policies and the back of the bus mentality.
When she pointed out that this could have put her in more serious danger, he merely scoffed:
You would have to be paranoid and spoonfed the most egregious of feminist women are helpless, men are unstoppable beasts that need other men with guns to drag them away dogma to believe that all but the most psychopathic would persist or try to harm you if you outed them to a crowd for their actions.
Easy for you to say.
Of course, when women DO confront sexual harassers on trains, as I noted in a post on the infamous New York Subway flasher last November, they get reactions like this sarcastic Reddit comment from one member of the men-are-oppressed club.
Yes, because obviously her heterophobia needs to be glorified… Penises are so disgusting and scary, obviously women should totally be justified in fearing them and there couldn’t possibly be any kind of misandry involved with such contempt, befuddlement or “helplessness/horror” to the mere sigh[t] of male anatomy. /s
Yep, if you’re a woman on a train, not wanting to have some random dude pull his penis out and rub it on you is “heterophobia.” Who knew?
In the case of the subway flasher, the alleged perp did indeed flee when confronted. (He was later arrested.) That’s pretty much the best-case scenario. But it’s hardly the only possible result, and it’s understandable why a woman riding the train to work (much less one backpacking alone in a foreign country) would hesitate to publicly accuse a groper of groping her. Having women-only train cars cuts down on the number of times women are put in this difficult situation.
Yes, in an ideal world, there would be no need for women-only train cars. In an ideal world, men wouldn’t grope women on trains.
This was cut out of my last comment cuz of the angle brackets : But on top of all of that is the Asianphiles and chasers who up the ante often to a whole new level of creepy and feeling entitled to my body :
Yeah, the back of the bus thing is sad. Getting the worst seats and being forced to be there is, apparently, the same thing as getting their own, better (in terms of sexual harassment) car. Yeah…
@Ami: “yeah but girls naturally enjoy it, I’m not a girl” That is quite disturbing. How could he actually think that? *shudder*
Dave’s Wiki link on groping has a pic of a sign labelled “Beware of groping”, not “Do not grope”. Why don’t the signs say “Gropers are creeps”, or “Only sexually inadequate men grope”, or “Do you plan on sexually assaulting someone on the train today? If so, do not ride, visit a therapist instead.” Not only might it help lower the number of sexual assaults,MRAs would get really upset and say even funnier stuff.
If men were being segregated into one carriage, and women got to ride the rest of the train, then I would see the link with racially segregated trains. But as it stands, not seeing it. MRA logic: it baffles comprehension.
“yeah but girls naturally enjoy it, I’m not a girl”
I know the guy that said this isn’t here, but I want to reply to it anyway.
No, we don’t. We hate it. It sucks. Just because we face it a lot more than men doesn’t mean it’s any easier or better for us.
But a lot of times, we don’t complain. Why? Because there’s just too much to complain about, and we don’t want to live our lives in perpetual complainment.
@Amnesia yeah : Basically his logic was that b/c it was so unbearable to him (but lucky for him he can flee back to being a guy and IRL he’s free from this) the fact that we haven’t quit proves that we must naturally like it or be okay w/ it rather than we have WAY thicker skin b/c this BS is a fact in our gaming life : B/c I play so effectively, he assumed this must feel like a soft gentle rain to me, rather than it is as annoying and frustrating to me as it was to him, but I keep on trucking… >:3
Fuck. Why can’t we humans have nice things, without sleazeballs making things crappy for everyone? Are adults now 10-year-olds that have to be separated by gender to make sure nobody acts naughty? 2/3s, everybody should be sickened by that number. (not specifically men, I don’t personally hold to the notion that on member of a group is responsible for what their group does, especially large ones like gender)
I honestly don’t want to see gender-divided cars (because that is what it will turn into), because once they are put in place, it will be impossible to get rid of them. I wish I could shake every one of these bastards down, but my shaking arms would get sore rather quickly. If they are the only/best way though, better to be separated then continue the harrassment, especially since it occurs so frequently.
@eilish:
Completely agree with you there. In these cases a lot of the time men are made out the same way as criminals, in that “oh, they’ll just keep doing what they’re doing no matter what we say, better tell the victims to watch out.” It degrades men to the status of animals, in that there is no reasoning with them, they are incapable of changing their behavior. Instead of “Beware of Gropers” (yeah, beware of ME, heh heh heh) a nice big “No Groping” of sorts would be nice, coupled with signs encouraging other witnesses to speak out, (sorta like other campaigns like “See something, Say something”) Get the men doing this to feel guilty, rather than the victims feel even more afraid.
Rant complete. Oi…
Wow. I guess I must be a super-“misandrist” then, because my first thought was “Women are the ones being groped, and their only solution is women-only cars?” Kind of like the curfew thing in Israel. (This coming from me is saying something as I absolutely detest most of Israel’s policies.) Golda Meir had some politicians recommend a curfew to reduce rape. They of course meant for women. Golda Meir said she was open to it, but the curfew would be for the men.
For the record, I couldn’t actually support such a policy in reality. Too punitive for me because, if you’ll forgive me, I’m sure you know that NAMALT. (Sorry, had to. lol
But I digress. I don’t know. Making women-only train-cars just feels like punishing the victims to me. I mean, before the holocaust, Nazis talked about (I don’t know if they ended up doing it or not) arranging Jewish-only train-cars, but it wasn’t for the sake of the Jews, but rather for Germans.
To use a non-holocaust example, I was groped on the bus once, and my grandparents drove me to and from work in the days following. I know they meant well, but they didn’t bother to ask if that’s what I wanted, so I felt like I was being punished for being removed from the bus instead of him.
Just a few points
The first link, (not the description of groping) but the one with the laughable 2/3 grope survey. How was the survey done. Is it a survey of 3 women who reported being groped and they found 2 of the 3 complaints accurate?
The link goes on to tell us about the “devious sukebe.” Ahh theres a “name.” Like thats supposed to mean anything. If I find the acts of homosexuals distasteful and you call me “homophobic” do you really think I’m going to change my opinion? Victim cards don’t work anymore, that hand has been way overplayed.
Have any of you seen how they pack people onto that Tokyo metro? They literally put their foot on the person standing at the door and shove them in, any movement will result in human contact.
In an all womens car, couldn’t a woman also grope another woman? Or is that OK? Or aren’t women like that?
Finally the article goes on to state internet gangs that get together to grope unsuspecting women. Now offhand I don’t know the price of the Tokyo merto-ride, but I’m guessing for about the same price or possibly a little more you could get either a lap dance at the local strip clup or a hooker for a little more. Use you heads, why risk a crime when for the same price or a little more you could get more.
As far as the “flasher” goes. I believe all you fine feminists constantly state over and over on this very forum about all the different kinds of dicks you love to look at, fondle, ect. I’m pretty sure if a woman were to flash a bunch of men they would cheer. Since feminism is all about getting rid of all those nasty gender stereotypes I’m guessing you would all cheer yourselves. Unless of course your really just a pack of liars.
Mr. Slave, you are such an idiot, I can’t even justify laughing at you.
Good answer Alex, you really put me in my place with that one.
I know you are but what am I. Sheer genius!
Ariadne Brunnell from the Vampire Maid by Huge Nisbet.
Now please stop posting these screeds. I only have two more of these drawings completed (plus one more that’s about half finished now), and I’m far too busy to photograph them tomorrow.
Tagfail.
I didn’t sleep too well last night. Sorry about that.
NWO…
Wow… just… wow… First off, way to dismiss a study you know nothing about. Oh, and make fun of another language, woo hoo. “Victim cards don’t work anymore, that hand has been way overplayed.” Say what now? How is calling these people perverts (in japanese) playing… the victim card?
But no, this is what I wanted to have a little chat with you about. Yes, some women here have expounded upon their love for penises. That doesn’t mean this feeling exists 24/7. Sex and sexual organs are fun when you are in the mood, not when you’re traveling in the middle of the day on a crowded train. I’ll bet if a woman walked up to you and shoved her boobs in your face, your first thoughts wouldn’t be “I’m the luckiest man in the world.” And no woman wants some random geezer whipping out ‘ole richard and waving it around as if they were trying to cast a spell. Haven’t you ever been told “there’s a time and a place?”
I remember when budget cuts resulted in a reduction in service on my subway line a few years back. Fewer trains meant more crowded cars, and I was commiserating with some female coworkers over the concomitant uptick in getting groped or humped on the way home from work. Now, many of us had been under the impression that this was an unfortunate, involuntary act on the dude’s part – like, it must be so embarrassing to pop a boner on the packed train and have no choice but to grind against the person next to you all the way home. But all of our male coworkers were absolutely horrified! This had never happened to any of them – so much for the notion that the humping was involuntary – and why didn’t any of us ever scream and make a big scene about it?
Well, some of us had made a public scene in the past, and learned it was not worth the effort. Either the guy doing the groping would become scary and aggressive when confronted, or, if the cops were called, it would take forever for them to show up, it would be a he-said, she-said sort of situation where the guy would claim that we had misinterpreted his wallet or the corner of his briefcase or whatever, and we’d end up being really late for work.
I’ll bet if a woman walked up to you and shoved her boobs in your face, your first thoughts wouldn’t be “I’m the luckiest man in the world.”
They might be, given NWO’s probable success rate with women.
kirbywarp, why give credence to a study you know nothing about?
How have I made fun of another language?
It’s a made up word that carries no “extra” relevance.
You say…”I’ll bet if a woman walked up to you and shoved her boobs in your face, your first thoughts wouldn’t be “I’m the luckiest man in the world.”
Yet slut walkers whom demand praise are doing exactly that. If a woman is wearing a mini-mine bathing suit can I tell her go away you offend me and have her arrested? If she prances about in front of a young boy entering puberty and talks to him a bit arousing him has she commited a crime? However if were to do the same to a young girl entering puberty, maybe talk to her a bit arousing her curiosity I’m pretty sure I’ll be spending a bit of time in the funhouse. Would feminists demand my release because I “own” my sexuality? I won’t hold my breath.
NWOslave, I’m pretty sure I’m the only person here who has actually rhapsodized about penises. And that was actually mostly about a very specific penis.
And Kirby is right! There is a huge difference between wanting to play with one of my lover’s penises and some random man waving his at me. It’s all about context and consent. Saying yes enthusiastically to one, or even many, men, dosen’t mean I’ve given consent to all men!
See! One troll complains about women being frigid, another complains about them being sluts. Just can’t win here.
Also, I have been on extremely crowded trains. There is a huge difference between neing packed in like sardines that you must press against someone else, and groping them.
The fact that NWOaf compares being homosexual to being a crrrrreepy, sleazy, entitled, pervy groper tells you everything you need to know about him.
I.e. that he’s a complete fucking moron.
However if were to do the same to a young girl entering puberty, maybe talk to her a bit arousing her curiosity I’m pretty sure I’ll be spending a bit of time in the funhouse.
Please, please please, please test your theory. And find a friend to videotape it. Come on NWOaf. You know you’re dying to try this out!!
So, I lived in Tokyo for 5 years.
Groping wasn’t the worst of it. I had guys proposition me, try to follow me home, and one guy flashed me at 2pm on a Sunday in the middle of a residential neighborhood.
No, I wasn’t dressed sexy either.
See, I have to say that because one of these times (I think the first time I had a guy follow me for roughly 30 minutes, not including the time he spent staring at me on the train) a friend demanded to know what I was wearing. I was wearing long sleeves and an ankle length skirt, with knee-high boots underneath. In other words, a lot. No, it wasn’t what I was fucking wearing.
I’ve never used the ladies-only car because very few trains have them, and those that do only have them during very limited periods of time. Usually only very-very rush hour times in the evening or early morning, and often only going out toward the suburbs. I mention this because I often hear that any woman who rides in any other car “deserves it.” Because I lived in the city and because my job had odd hours, I was never commuting at a time when there were any ladies-only cars.
Besides, those won’t save you from the flashing, groping, stalking, etc. you experience outside of the train. The only way to stop it is to tell men to stop being skeezebags. (I once had a guy try to grab my crotch while I was walking through the station. He ended up grabbing my hip instead.)
I talked to a lot of other foreign women there and a lot of Japanese women too. Just about every single one of us had had something like this happen. You don’t usually tell anyone (like the police) because it’s your word against someone else’s. The police are just as likely to be taking the upskirt photos and groping schoolgirls as anyone else.
Another thing I’ve seen a lot of is guys talking about false accusations and how women and their friends go out to accuse guys of this stuff and then their friend acts as the witness. I bet that happens far less than actual assaults, but there you go–the woman is guilty until she’s proved innocent. How MRA of them.
Lastly … if a guy wants to go around groping women, the minimum fare is usually 130-160 yen. Honestly, when was the last time you got a lapdance for less than $2? Geez.
You are exactly the kind of person we are having the SlutWalks about, NWOslave.
Consenting to sexual contact in one context does not mean I consent in all contexts. And being flashed counts as sexual contact.
But wearing a speedo does not, honey. Unless you’re behaving really creepily around a prepubescent girl, I suppose. But being a lady in bikini around a prepubescent boy would be the same.
“It’s a made up word that carries no “extra” relevance.” …….. grk. It’s japanese! Are you saying that “rapist” is just a made-up word, with no “extra” relevance too?
“Yet slut walkers whom demand praise are doing exactly that. If a woman is wearing a mini-mine bathing suit can I tell her go away you offend me and have her arrested? If she prances about in front of a young boy entering puberty and talks to him a bit arousing him has she commited a crime?”
The first, no. She’s not doing anything to you, you are just offended by her looks. Sorry bub. That is why the slut walkers are walking, because people don’t have a right to shame them just because they don’t like what they are wearing (hope that was confusing enough).
I don’t know where you’re going with the second one, are you saying that women trying to seduce random boys on the street is a common, unfought crime? What exactly is your comparison, here?
Man, Choco, that horrifies me. I’ve been lucky and experienced very little street harassment. I wish there were nice simple answers to this. Telling people to stop groping is certainly a good start.
I experienced this in India. Taking rikshas is a dubious proposition if you’re alone, you don’t know if the riksha-wallah is going to take you home or somewhere else, at least late at night. They call it eve-teasing, and the guys there have a real thing for blondes (thanks, Indian media, for using “blonde” as a visual shorthand for “dirty filthy whore who’s just asking for it”!). I had it pretty bad (dirty blond) but another USian student on the trip, who was platinum blond, literally couldn’t move more than 50 feet in the street without some guy grabbing for her breasts or crotch.
Doesn’t “eve-teasing” sound so sweet and innocent compared to the reality of the situation?