In various countries around the world, women and teenage girls are regularly groped while riding commuter trains. This, I suspect, is not news to most of you; indeed, I know one reader of this blog who’s had this happen to her. In Japan, one survey found that two-thirds of female passengers in their twenties and thirties had been groped. Because the problem is so prevalent in that country — and the authorities are so ineffective at controlling it – some train lines have instituted women-only train cars in an attempt to cut down on groping (and on false accusations of groping as well). “Women-only” train cars have also introduced, in a limited way, in India, where harassment of women in public – known as “Eve teasing” – is distressingly common.
So what’s more appalling – the fact that groping on trains is so common in Japan that two-thirds of young women commuters have had to endure it themselves, or the fact that a small number of train cars have been set aside for women in a fairly half-assed attempt to curtail some of this groping?
For a lot of MRAs, the latter. The subject came up on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit recently, inspiring some of the regulars to fulminate against this allegedly misandrist outrage. Fatalistic pulled out the n-word and this facile comparision:
Here’s what I’m seeing here: “At least we let you in the back of the bus, nigger.”
ExpendableOne, meanwhile, managed to work in a staggering number of standard-issue MRA complaints into this one sentence:
I think it’s discrimination and subjugation entirely based on misandry, negative male type-casting/stereotyping and anti-male heterophobia.
Ztakn seemed to suggest that it was all part of some oddly indirect money-making scheme on the part of, I guess, women:
To keep it short they exploit and propagate fears not only demonizing men in society but also terrorizing women and scaring the shit out of them making them more paranoid than they need to be.
And then they do it for money.
How would that work exactly?
1) Get groped
2) Set up women-only train cars
3) ???
4) Profit?
Given that the Men’s Rights subreddit is one of the few Men’s Rights forums online that is not completely overrun with misogynist fanatics, there were others who responded more reasonably. Alienblonde noted:
In Japan it’s a massive problem where school girls get groped by older males on trains in peak hour.
Happened to me in Europe too when I was back packing. Some old Spanish guy sat beside me and decided to feel me up.
Women shouldn’t have to deal with this and unfortunately, until it stops happening, I think [women only train cars are] justified.
Naturally, this being a Men’s Rights forum, she quickly found herself the focus of a game of “blame the victim.” Fatalistic accused her of “[j]ustifying discrimination with this all men are potential criminals feminist dogma.” When she pointed out that she was not, in fact, doing this, he moved on to castigating her for not making a public scene when she was groped:
You should out the people who actually do these things rather than treat the rest of us as criminals by default with disgusting bigoted policies and the back of the bus mentality.
When she pointed out that this could have put her in more serious danger, he merely scoffed:
You would have to be paranoid and spoonfed the most egregious of feminist women are helpless, men are unstoppable beasts that need other men with guns to drag them away dogma to believe that all but the most psychopathic would persist or try to harm you if you outed them to a crowd for their actions.
Easy for you to say.
Of course, when women DO confront sexual harassers on trains, as I noted in a post on the infamous New York Subway flasher last November, they get reactions like this sarcastic Reddit comment from one member of the men-are-oppressed club.
Yes, because obviously her heterophobia needs to be glorified… Penises are so disgusting and scary, obviously women should totally be justified in fearing them and there couldn’t possibly be any kind of misandry involved with such contempt, befuddlement or “helplessness/horror” to the mere sigh[t] of male anatomy. /s
Yep, if you’re a woman on a train, not wanting to have some random dude pull his penis out and rub it on you is “heterophobia.” Who knew?
In the case of the subway flasher, the alleged perp did indeed flee when confronted. (He was later arrested.) That’s pretty much the best-case scenario. But it’s hardly the only possible result, and it’s understandable why a woman riding the train to work (much less one backpacking alone in a foreign country) would hesitate to publicly accuse a groper of groping her. Having women-only train cars cuts down on the number of times women are put in this difficult situation.
Yes, in an ideal world, there would be no need for women-only train cars. In an ideal world, men wouldn’t grope women on trains.
Sometimes the only word that comes to mind is “GAH!”
What I don’t get is why any mention of violence against women by men is automatically misandry and heterophobia. A woman talks about getting groped by a dude, and the real tragedy is that a dude is getting accused of something. It makes me wonder if these MRAs all just wish they could get away with groping women on trains, and are really upset they can’t.
Never mind that it is frequently impossible to find the culprit, if the train is crowded enough. I’ve ridden trains in rush hour in Tokyo (the morning rush is the only time the cars are women only there) and sometimes there’s so little space that when the train takes a curve, and you’re in middle where there are no handholds, you actually have difficulty breathing because everyone else is crushing you. Try finding exactly which person next to you just tried to cop a feel in that circumstance.
It makes me wonder if these MRAs all just wish they could get away with groping women on trains, and are really upset they can’t.
Often is the question asked…
Only 2/3 have been groped? I’d put the number much higher, given the number of times I’ve been inappropriately touched on public transit.
Also, in a partially-related tangent, I think that this is part of the reason an all female team has never won The Amazing Race, the best ones are always doing well until they get to India or China and then pretty much completely shut down. And this is what happens when they have fucking cameras recording their every move! Imagine how horrible it is without that! I’m sad that women-only trains are necessary, but it won’t stop until men recognize that women are people, not objects.
I’m happy to say that not only is this no longer the case, but the last two seasons have been won by all female teams.
Not that I’m advocating women’s only trains or nething here (I dunno about in other places cuz I dun live there and I’m not the one being assaulted) : But it happens even here (tho clearly not to that degree). Recently there was a guy arrested for it, and I myself have witnessed it (and stopped it) 😮 What was shocking to me was that the train was packed and men and women SAW this happening, and the poor woman couldn’t get away from him and he was clearly molesting her, and NOBODY WOULD EVEN MOVE to help her get out of the way 🙁 They saw it, then looked away, or back to their newspaper. I mean at least hit the emergency alarm button if you’re afraid to do nething >_>;;; (why do I feel like I’m about to get a lecture about our feminized society? xD This is going to be hilarious xD, as I said, I am the rodeo cat xD )
So cute little me started to shove people out of the way and I made a big hole for her to get behind me then I blocked the guy and stared him down and he ran off the train swearing at me at the next stop xD But gah at ppl not doing nething >:O And she said she was afraid that he might have a knife or something which is why she was afraid to make a scene and afraid of what else he might be capable of : I get it : I rly do (and ppl freeze up when this stuff happens, so I get that too, esp when it’s happening to THEM) but it’s still… I mean it’s fun and all well and good to talk about theory and stuff, but it actually happens, and we ALL want it to stop. (presumably).. so at some point, there has to be a change somewhere… that would be more useful than complaining 🙂 and if they want to put the onus on the victim… i mean, I think that’s kinda not what they want tho, b/c if the reddit guys are so scared of false accusations as it is, I dun think they want to add “getting threatened with weapons, maced, punched, etc” to the mix as the change right? 🙁 (which would be bad too, b/c I am not a fan of violence by nebody : )
it’s not some weird gender war thing or a conspiracy to “get” nebody, it’s about reality and what’s happening now and that we want it not to right? (to any gender and any age, cuz we can’t control for who ppl choose to assault) i suggest vigilence and doing things 🙂
GAH i’m running late D: *zooms away*
Eh, it’s true that in an ideal world women wouldn’t need segregated carriages, and I’m glad they exist in various countries so that some women can have a break from all the assault, but they aren’t going to change the victim-blaming culture. Why is the onus on women to go and sit in the women-only carriages, lest they ‘get groped’? What if I want to sit with my male friend in the mixed carriage? What if there’s no space in the women’s carriage? I would probably totally use these carriages if I’d had a harassful day, but this is sexual assault prevention like telling women to stay in their locked home alone is rape prevention.
Also, talking about your actual experience of real life harassment by a man is misandry? Geez.
Yeah…I can’t help but be a bit worried about the women-only train idea, because I can foresee a situation where a woman doesn’t for whatever reason use said car, is harassed, and thanks to the victim-blaming mentality has an even harder time defending herself (because obviously if she didn’t “want” to get harassed, she would have use the women-only car, even if it was full or something).
Nobody tell these guys about the public restroom situation.
@Tabby Lavalamp Awesome! I admit, I gave up after the first ten seasons, though I used to be obsessed. I’ve actually even met Phil Keoghan! I have the pictures to prove it! And many many of the racers too, actually. I’m so glad to hear that some women’s teams have finally won! It did get to be predictable in the first ten seasons that you’d lose all of the women-only teams after India.
I wonder if these MRA’s had to present as female for a day, and then experienced all the messed up shit we have to deal with from men, would that wake any of them up to reality?
/wishful thinking
OMG!! I wish *we* had commuter trains on which we may or may not be subject to harrassment! I’m so jealous.
Nimue, maybe we should start agitating for “MRA Dress Up as a Woman Day.”
I was in a SUPER rush so my comment isn’t rly what I wanted it to be 🙁 (just to clarify I meant it would be more useful than these guys complaining (I’m not even sure about what o_O unless they believe that reality is not actually happening o_o ) and hoping it just poofs disappears… not about victims and potential victims complaining 🙂 )
And also that I meant “here” as in where I live, not the colloquial “here”… my concern is similar, that it might lead to more victim blaming, but at the same time, reality is… real… and sometimes there needs to be practical solutions to real actual problems (like in places where it’s rly bad, I mean I can’t speak to a problem I haven’t experienced : but other ppl can and have ) while working on the long term solution 🙂 (also out of honest curiosity, how are issues involving genderqueer presenting and trans men and women handled in places where there are segregated cars? )
@Nimue my experience w/ that idea is that ppl who don’t want to learn nething don’t learn nething 🙁 (tho I can personally speak completely to the idea that it makes a HUGE difference how you’re perceived to the world : )
Like I knew a guy on an MMORPG I played who played as a girl char once and then said he wouldn’t do it again cuz of the amount of sexual harassment he kept getting and ppl talking about raping him when they were mad at him, or cyber offers and treating him like he didn’t know how to play the game, or not listening to him… and the other female players incl me were all like THIS IS WHAT WE FACE ALL THE TIME (incl if you play male avatar and ppl find out you’re a girl) and he said “yeah but girls naturally enjoy it, I’m not a girl” e_e and on that either we must be used to it (which.. kinda says that he has a subconscious understanding that this happens so much, he just thinks we must be numb to it xD ) or cuz he (presumes) we’re straight, we must LIKE harassment >_> The idea that we just want to play the game JUST LIKE HIM isn’t there xD
As my friend said “it’s like he went out of his way to learn nothing from the situation” xD I think ppl who don’t want to learn anything will always find a way why it’s different, or that it doesn’t count… or etc etc.. (like trans-exclusionary radfems who claim trans women dun experience sexism b/c every cis man KNOWS that they’re trans (even if they pass) and so it’s at most homophobia, I suspect the reaction would be similar to that in terms of why “it doesn’t count”)
Is like that Simpsons episode where the crew of a reality show is turned on by the cast..
Crew Member #1: Gee, now I know what if feels like to be tormented.
Crew Member #2: And yet I learn nothing!
xD
I don’t think people who get around primarily by means of their own cars (most Americans, especially rural Americans) really know what it is like to “travel while female” on public transportation. Or by walking/biking for that matter.
Anyone here familiar with the “HollaBack” sites? They list instances of cat-calling, groping, harassment, and just general unpleasantness experienced by women traveling alone in public. I contribute to my local HollaBack with stories of harassment AT LEAST once a month. (hollabackdc.wordpress.com)
And that’s in America. Traveling as a single woman in Central Asia was basically a RL strategy game. Travel by taxi: Is there at least one women already waiting to go in the fullest taxi? If not, how old are the men? How old is the driver (always a man)? How long have they been waiting (i.e. how drunk are they?) The winning combo here was an older driver (50+), three ejes (older women) and you are the last passenger, so the taxi leaves right away with minimal waiting around the vokzal. The losing combo is younger driver, two men (of any age) and you are the third passenger, so they all have time to do shots before you head out.
That’s not even going into marshrutka (minibus) rides, routed city buses, pick-pocketing, dress, etc, etc. Getting ready to travel was not a matter of tossing some shit in a bag and heading out. Everything from time of day to length and style of hair had to be considered… and all that was only a weak defense, easily overcome by the more persistent of harassers (almost always men.) If there had been a female-only bus-route from my town to the capitol, I would have taken it even if it was twice the money.
Given the reaction they had to David Craig dressing up – I can just imagine the outcry.
You mean Daniel Craig? 😮
@Kes I haven’t heard of that site, but now I have 🙂 I’ve been using my personal locked journal and another comm, I always worry I post far too often on it 🙁 I didn’t know there was one specifically dedicated to that 😮 I’ve had ppl try to grope me and even LICK me when I’m jogging, plus just being out and about… and the stalking.. much less all the verbal harassment >__< ) Thank you for sharing the site 🙂
What you've described btw sounds positively awful and frightening 🙁 I'm so sorry you had to live w/ stuff like that :
I wish WP wouldn’t turn my :O faces into happy looking faces -_-;;;
What I don’t get is why any mention of violence against women by men is automatically misandry and heterophobia.
I think it’s analogous the derangement centered around Obama. Conservatives keep throwing around racist dogwhistles (or just plain whistles) because it keeps the Republican base sufficiently riled up to guarantee their votes. Likewise, MRAs keep their own in-group raging against women and feminists because it sells books and seminar tickets.
I honestly do not get a lot of street harassment and the last time I remember being groped without permission it was in a mosh pit over a decade ago. Maybe it’s because I’m a fat-fat-fatty omega (though I have friends larger than me would would contest this). Maybe it’s because I project really good “GO AWAY!” vibes (this is definitely true and if I knew how to teach this I would, but it appears to be something innate). It might even be because I’m oblivious (friends report guys staring at my chest that I literally NEVER SEE but I’d think groping would be a little more obvious?). It’s certainly not because I’m physically intimidating – I’m of average height and maybe slightly over average strength for a girl.
Here in the US, on the transit systems I’ve ridden I’ve never had a problem, so I wouldn’t ride a gender-segregated car if it existed (that includes Boston, NYC, DC and San Francisco/San Jose systems all in the past few years. Er, and Toronto a couple of times.). If I went over to Asia though, who knows, my cultural references probably wouldn’t translate so I might grow to appreciate it. Hard to tell, I’ve never traveled outside North America.
Plymouth, I agree. I have yet to have a problem on any bus system but then I tend to project a Granny Weatherwax personality at all times.
I used to say that I would grow into my personality at around 40. Considering current times, I had to revise that to 50.
How fitting that you posted this article on the first day of my Japanese class. 🙂
Yet more of the “misandry!” cries, eh? Seriously, why is everything that helps females without blaming males “misandrist?” If anything, shouldn’t they be happy that there will be less false accusations or whatever? And the fact that they compare women-only cars with being sent “to the back of the bus” shows how inconsiderate and ignorant they are about the racism black people dealt with.
Fuck MRAs. They just say the stupidest shit.