So I recently ran across a site called “Is It Normal?” The idea behind it is simple, and kind of wonderful: people confess some possibly odd thing about themselves, and others tell them if it’s normal. Now, normally (as it were) I’m against the too-rigid enforcement of what is considered “normal” behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality and sex roles. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. Ohhhh, no. We’re talking about grown men and women eating their own boogers; having sexual fantasies about zombies; feeling an urge to jump off of high places; or wanting to be turned into a doll or manikin. (Hey, whatever floats your boat.)
Naturally, I did a search for “misogyny” just to see what turned up. Is that a normal thing to do? I don’t know, and I don’t care, but I did it and the search pulled up a couple of pretty interesting little discussions.
The one that really grabbed my attention was from a guy who said he hated female sexuality. Which may not be “normal,” though as readers of this blog know it’s not uncommon. But this guy is no Christopher from Oregon, whose hatred of female sexuality is part of a package deal that includes hatred for pretty much everything female.
No, this guy hates female sexuality in part because, well, he thinks the male body is ugly and so assumes – or at least feels on a gut level — that any woman having sex with a man is being coerced, bamboozled, or raped. Yep, we’re talking about a rich and toxic stew of misogyny and misandry here. Let’s let him explain:
I Hate Female Sexuality
What little mysogyny I have in me is directed at female sexuality. I can’t stand it that females are attracted to males, ever. I hate them a little for it, just feel it in my gut. I thought for a long time when I was younger that females were basically asexual, not interested in sex, and that romance for them was something far removed from physical love. It didn’t occur to me that anyone might find the male form attractive, and I always suspected males were using some form of deception or raping women in some way when they were with them. I don’t understand this hate and distrust for my own sex. It really bothers me.
I hate that I feel there’s something wrong with a female having an active sexuality when I know intellectually there’s not. I’m a passionate feminist and attracted to females myself. I don’t really understand this feeling.
I think maybe a small part of it is jealousy when I see a couple, and the rest mostly my wierd, incongruous hatred for the male sex.
I don’t think females are doing something wrong but that something wrong is being done to them when they engage in sexual activity, even consentual, with a male, and they’re allowing it to happen, are complicit in it. This is just a feeling I have and can’t shake. It’s not overwhelming, like I’m freaking out whenever I see a couple but it’s there a lot, subtle but persistent. I’m atheist and I’m not someone who belives sexual promiscuity is wrong or even undesirable in male or females. This is just a wierd, lingering emotional problem, like fear of the dark or something like that.
Is it normal?
So, yeah. For what it’s worth, only 14% of those reading this confession rated it normal. But, as I said, I don’t think it’s uncommon. We grow up, after all, in a society that treats sexuality as a commodity that women possess, and that men try to “get” from women – by charming them into “giving it up,” by buying it directly or indirectly (by going to a prostitute or paying for dinner), or simply taking by force.
This way of thinking about sex is pretty deeply embedded in our culture; as regular readers of this blog know all too well, many MRAs, MGTOWers, and PUAs (especially) seem unable to conceive of sexuality in any other way. Neither does the questioner on Is It Normal (who goes by the name SamuraiPeeper), even though he’s a self-described feminist.
Like a lot of misogynistic ideas, this “women own sex, men must fight to get it” idea contains a heaping helping of misandry as well – suggesting that women basically don’t enjoy or desire sex with men because male bodies and male sexuality are inherently disgusting. It’s only a few small steps from this to SamuraiPeeper’s whole muddled mixture of desire and disgust, hatred and self-hatred.
The biggest difference between SamuraiPeeper and the MGTOWers and other misogynists I write about here is that he’s aware that his views are fucked up, and is trying actively to work through his issues. And he’s actually gotten some good responses to his query on Is It Normal?
PoisonFlowers suggests that some of his hatred and disgust probably stems from a fear of female sexuality:
Is it misogyny? I don’t think it’s as clear cut as that. Perhaps because the image you had of women (almost an idealised impression it seems) when you were younger has been destroyed (instead of having romance that is above sex, it turns out that women can be just as animalistic as men), you feel a sort of resentment and that mixes with the jealousy and then as you say “a weird, incongruous hatred for the male sex.” This then becomes a strong dislike for female sexuality.
Why do you have these feelings about men? Is it the people you’ve been surrounded with throughout your life and their behaviour/attitudes? Have you witnessed a man being abusive towards a woman at any point in your life? …
You say that you feel as though “something wrong is being done to them,” which could point to an urge in you to protect women, or perhaps it is more accurate to say to protect the _idea_ you have of women that stems from the concept you had when you were younger.
randomsensuality offers some similar observations:
It definitely sounds like you want to protect the idea of females as pure, with an almost divine stature. It also sounds like you have been taught or embraced the idea that penetrative sex is inherently degrading or immoral: therefore a woman who enjoys it is equally so.
Another bit on the matter is that many men do not find it attractive when women lead the hunt, as it were. They want to be the ones in control, in the pursuit of the sex and relationships. If a woman is as much “on the prowl” as he is, then he can’t say that it was a full conquest. He wants to know he’s been where others have failed to enter, that it took his prowess to crack the nut, setting him apart and making his mate a trophy and attribute to his stature.
Lets also not forget the angle of loathing the male form, which you say you can’t understand a woman being attracted to. If you are heterosexual male, this makes sense. Of course it’s easier to wrap your brain around lesbian sex, you like women, you understand innately attraction to women. Attraction to men, is scary for more than that reason though. If a woman is attracted to a man, then she could be attracted to any man the way a man can be attracted to any woman: this vision of the situation can induce pre-emptive jealousy and defensiveness.
Meanwhile, a 19-year-old girl calling herself so_damn_unpretty offers a blunter response – and one that might do the questioner as much good as the longer, more thoughtful responses:
I love men… and cock.. and sex… so i really cant relate.
In the end, that’s probably the most important takeaway here, as they like to say in the business world. Women – most women, anyway – genuinely like and enjoy sex as much as men. Sometimes more. When a guy “scores” with a woman — she is also “scoring” with him. Rigid gender roles that define man as the sexual pursuer and women as the sexual prize may make it hard to see this, but it’s true. Not only that, but women – heterosexual women, anyway – actually like and enjoy the male body.
Guys, know this: while you are watching sports, or playing video games, or playing with yourself, or knitting (or whatever your favorite hobby is), there are thousands of women writing, sharing, and reading slash fic about dudes (from various TV shows and movies and books) getting it on with each other. There are no women in these stories, at least not in the dirty parts. Just dudes, and their dude bodies, having dude sex with each other. Freud once asked: what do women want? And to that we have a partial answer: stories about Sam and Dean from Supernatural penetrating one another’s deepest mysteries.
How are the Reptilian overlords treating you these days, NWOslave?
I’m doing pretty well myself as a member of the League of Manginas, which is just below the Masons and the Illuminati in the hierarchy.
“OK, well call me when Eve goes mainstream, because I don’t see it happening any time soon. Maybe she and Ward Churchill can hit the lecture circuit together.”
Mike Nifong, Marry Kellett, Nicole Christian, and of course, we can also include such pioneers as Dworkin and MacKinnon. just to name a few off the top of my head. You don’t see it because you embrace it. Simply speaking out against misandry has earned men the title misogynist for decades. And I suspect you yourself are guilty of that transgression.
“If it is, then why do no moderate MRAs ever show up to denounce the people quoted?”
I don’t know, I’ve called MRAL a petty little man and denounced his violent fantasy a few times. I choose not to involve myself in the other debate you were having with him. Ever consider that moderate MRA’s are ignoring the idiots, including posts aggrandizing those idiots (and thus, this entire website)? I generally only come her to point out that misandry is just as prevalent as misogyny. Of course, nobody here ever wants to hear it. They would rather believe that the MRA has the monopoly of Hate speech, while feminists have the upper hand on moral thought… But look closely at davids articles. he’s simply picking on the stupid fringe of the MRM’s gateway, lumping in the MGTOW, as if they were interested in men’s rights rather then self protection. Splash in a touch of PUG’s, who are more interested in self fulfillment, and calling the lot a single unified entity.
“I don’t understand the logic here. If making disturbingly specific violent threats against people is wrong, then Eve is an asshole. MRAL is an asshole”
Agreed.
“MRAL more so because his threats were a response to words and Eve’s to real-life violence.”
Difference is, there’s already been at least one person who says she’s been proven right by the actions of a single man. That’s one person who does not find calling all men rapists and saying they should die, a repugnant idea.
Now, while nether person is likely to actually carry out their threats, one of the two will likely influence people, even if only a small number. largely because, as we have witnessed here, it’s based on something that draws emotion from people. You fear MRAL more because he is a man threatening a women, and don’t give a stitch about the practicality of that threat, or the fact that there exists very real consequence’s should he act on them. You empathize with the hate monger because her “threats were in response to real-life violence.”. You have given her a pass. You have accepted her reasoning, if not her message, and in doing so, validated her hate mongering. I think that is far more dangerous then any 5’8″ loudmouth with a bum eye, even in the highly unlikely scenario that he did act on it.
Ask any one of your black friends which they would be more concerned about. Some racist drunk spouting off slurs and insults and threatening black people… Or someone who was spreading a message of hate under the guise of a reasonable, even respectable cause. A message that would be heard, and would spread. Ask them which is more dangerous.
Reading
Comprehension
Fail
O_O;;;
But again, it’s like the birthers or the moon landing hoaxers or the truthers 🙁 They read what they want desperately to believe b/c it fits the conspiracy theory 🙁
If you actually READ this tho, it’ll be pretty clear that Umbrella Corporation would never allow the laws to be changed b/c it will limit contact with possible zombies and thus slow the spread of infection :
@NWOslave
Dude, that’s horrific. Imagine what all those no-good wymynz will do now that the law
“embrace victims regardless of sex, gender, age, disability, consciousness or level of intoxication. And it would encompass incest; rape with an object, finger or fist; and sodomy or oral copulation without consent.”
Oh the horrors! =_=
@Ami
Oh boy! And then I’ll get a tough ex-military, a sassy female, and a stoic black man to help me on my escape! Oh wait… then the black guy will get killed, the ex-mil will heroically sacrifice himself, and me and the girl will live on as a love interest? Win?
xD And I’ll be the “B” scenario 😀 Like Claire! (i have always adored Claire xD ) and I’ll meet up with a little girl who eventually gets infected and I’ll have to cure her before finding a way to escape, and eventually adopt her as my own 😀
@kratch
Just one little quickie here:
“Ever consider that moderate MRA’s are ignoring the idiots[?]”
David has, and nope, they aren’t. Each upvote of a comment, and downvote of an opposing one, indicates that the readership is in line with the former and against the latter. Are they “ignoring the idiots” by clicking a little thumbs up or arrow? Nooooope.
@spitfire
I doubt I could misread that under the influence of any substance reguardless if both parties are “influenced” rape will be assumed. Pretty muchspeaks for itself/
@Holly
I’ve stated on numerous occasions the penalty for violent rape should be 50 lashes in the town square and 20 years in prison. This’ll be the last time I repeat myself. I can’t make it any clearer.
@The rest of you, police can now enter your home without a warrant, just because they can. Bye bye magna carta. Or is it just a conspiracy theory?
http://ncfm.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2011-Barnes-v-St-of-Indian-re-police-have-right-to-enter-any-house-without-a-warrant.pdf
Well, public lashes is just barbaric. That’s not how justice works in America.
Fun fact: there are emotions besides blind violent rage!
NWO, Before I even read this (and I will, don’t worry), I wanna give you a prediction. That you’ve utterly failed to comprehend the true meaning of this ruling. That you’ve taken “police were justified in this one instance in entering a house without a warrent” and turned it into “police are justified in any instance in entering a house without a warrent.” Bets on how close I am?
I think the basic problem with the “debates” on the blog is this:
-MRAs are trying to corner feminists into admitting they hate men, which will never happen because they don’t
-Feminists are trying to corner MRAs into saying they don’t hate women, which will never happen because they do.
Also, Ami, I just noticed something. Me going for the heroic manly action movie, you going for the caring “save-the-child” one, we fell right into place there, didn’t we?
I know XD I did that w/ full awareness that that’s the trope that female heroes in zombie movies are in 😀 But as a good feminist, I know my place xD
Whatever, Kratch. I refuse to play “dance monkey dance” with you–or, in your case, “denounce the evil misandrists or be labeled one yourself.” It’s nothing more than a cheap rhetorical ploy, proving exactly nothing. What a dishonest way to argue.
Son, I am disappoint.
I’m in Canada so no, they can’t.
But still, I don’t think you should blame the actions of a few Indiana politicians on the overall conspiracy. The Reptilians are doing a fine job, if you ask me.
If you want though, I can take it up at the next meeting. I think I’ll be able to get a word in after the Eban supervisors negotiate new salaries for the Greys.
Aw man… looks like I’m a clueless macho man still… Need to hit up more feminist indoctrination classes, that’ll teach my silly man-brain to like explosions..
I love how ppl who whine they never read my posts always prove me right that they can’t help it xD
Besides that I’ve been railing against this and s- like this involving the state and police too (hay even a stopped clock right? :D) I’m unsure what that has to do with feminism o_O;;; Or raping disabled or unconscious ppl o_O;; Or like… the zombie apocalypse…
We’re back to first blood matches in the middle of one fall matches xD
XDDDDDDDDDD
OK, you people keep joking about the “wonky eye” like it’s no big deal.
http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m514/Gratch4/?action=view¤t=night.jpg
That’s what it looks like. So shut the fuck up.
Oh man. Oh man.
You aren’t nearly old enough to be so angry and defeated, and so fixed in your view of the world. That just makes me straight up sad.
Oh, the eye? I kinda noticed that, a little bit, since you pointed it out. No big deal.
Urk… The ruling could have been better… The police were not in error for entering the household, like it said, 911 calls are often situations requiring swift action, and allowing it to escalate can be dangerous. I don’t see why you have to revoke the right to resist an unlawful action though… NWO, why do you have to give us such complicated matters and sit smug, satisfied with your simple solution? Sickening…
I have one eye like that too :O But nobody seems to care… plus I’ve gotten modelling gigs! xD I’ve noticed that we see the “flaws” in our bodies way more than nebody else tends to, b/c they aren’t looking for it. :]
What, that’s it? Christ, I was expecting Marty Feldman or something. Dude, get help.
Err.. which eye was it again? Seriously, that’s not bad at all. Might put some people off at first, but I was picturing something more gouged out or scarred or something. Talk to people who have to live without part of their arm or something.
@Ami
Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. My friends talk about stuff they don’t like about their bodies, and even after they point it out I still have trouble seeing it. *shrug*
“Yes yes, some of you MRA and MGTOW folk denounce the truly batshit, but time and time again the conversation winds itself like a lazy serpent back to the topic…”
Same thing happens when debating with feminists. I guess it becomes tiresome to continually debate with batshit crazies, so you just leave them to themselves.
“… of why women really are the most evil things on the planet,”
Feminists maybe. Women, I suspect that has less to do with MRA’s and more to do with MGTOW’s. It’s a shame we all get lumped together as if we’re a single unified entity…
” choking the life out of what could be a fun, if playful,”
Fun? playful? for who? you, who seem to take pleasure in disparaging an entire movement, not based on their concerns and issues, but based on a fringe group that posts on one or two sites?
” conversation about stupidity. How is that, no matter how extreme the posters are, you always end up on their side, hmm?”
My absence in a discussion does not constitute siding with someone. When I have had anything to say about MRAL in this discussion, it has not been on his side, even if it has not been on yours ether (if you believe in absolutes, his side or yours, no room for others, that’s you defect).
“While technically true, feminists (especially the ones hear) DO agree on everything related to MRA arguments. That’s a bit of a problem; we can’t say with much credulity that we aren’t united when our waves crash from every side upon the shores of male dumb-assery.”
This equates MRA arguments to male-dumbassery. Would that be all MRA arguments, under the assumption that we are all in agreement, or just the arguments we actually are all in agreement on? In the first case, it’s hardly rational to cry “not all feminists are in agreement” and then attack an entire movement and their concerns by assuming they are all in agreement. In the second case, you are calling male concerns dumbassery, concerns such as fathers rights, alimony reform, male reproductive rights, equality of health care, concern over a gender biased political ministry specifically for women (without an egalitarian male counterpart), and complaints of a failure to uphold the constitutional right to due process (including a presumption of innocence until proven guilty), and equal treatment and protections under the law. All because some morrons, morrons who have been hurt by real experiences (which seems justification enough for EVE’s hate speech) seem to think women are evil.
“But for the most part, yeah, united on the fact that MRAs are wrong.”
So loving fathers and children shouldn’t be entitled to equal time together as with the mother? Men’s are wrong to want such a horrible horrible thing. or to expect government to show a gender neutrality by ether having no gender ministries or one of each. Not just a single ministry for women, complete with it’s own budget, and men can just go to hell.
“The bloggers all end up having to make it perfectly clear that the people they make fun of are not the norm, which is all fine and dandy. ”
Did you read Davids post in “the good men project” discussing the MRM. That was clearly an attack on all MRA’s based solely on the fringe he targets. That’s not fine and dandy, that is an attempt to silence by discrediting the entire movement rather then it’s arguments. It is a smear campaign. Nothing less. And for what? are the MRM expectations, the legitimate ones that we virtually all agree on, the ones that are listed on wikipedia under men’s rights… are they really so dangerous to women? or just to the feminists that make a living off those injustices?
Even tho I still call Poe (& this is not a particularly flattering pic of me, IMO xD )… wth xD
See, my eye’s like that too (it’s a little obscured by my awesome metallic pink glasses :D)
I think your eyes look nice btw 🙂
I’m sorry, one of my favorite meet up every couple of months sex buddies has a wonky eye *way* wonkier than that! I found it slightly disconcerting, upon first meeting, because it was unusual, but it never affected our getting the sex on. We had a nice conversation the first time (we went to the same con for several years) and he recognized me (though I didn’t recognize him, despite the wonky eye, which is WAY more visible than yours) and then he went on to charm me with his scintillating conversation. Because he’s smart. And interesting. You are a pile of hostility wrapped in a bag of unearned privilege.
When I asked my fuck-buddy about it, he said, oh, this one! Look in this eye because that’s the one I’m looking at you out of (it can be a bit confusing because his bad eye seems to focus but doesn’t.) Easy adaptation, it’s almost like I asked him a question and he gave me an honest answer. Communication between people who are able to talk. /sarcasm
MRAL your personality is toxic. If you don’t like women, that’s totally fine, stay the fuck away from us. Dedicating your life to talking about how women “spit” on you (actual examples including…this one woman didn’t say hi to me the right way because I think she thought I was creepy) and how you are always “spit” upon by the “bitches” and/or the “alphas” and…always blaming your problems on other people.
You are a complete and total jackass and have done nothing on this site to make anyone with a functioning mind thing better of you than that. I kind of hope you rot in whatever imaginary hell you are sure to believe in.