So I recently ran across a site called “Is It Normal?” The idea behind it is simple, and kind of wonderful: people confess some possibly odd thing about themselves, and others tell them if it’s normal. Now, normally (as it were) I’m against the too-rigid enforcement of what is considered “normal” behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality and sex roles. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. Ohhhh, no. We’re talking about grown men and women eating their own boogers; having sexual fantasies about zombies; feeling an urge to jump off of high places; or wanting to be turned into a doll or manikin. (Hey, whatever floats your boat.)
Naturally, I did a search for “misogyny” just to see what turned up. Is that a normal thing to do? I don’t know, and I don’t care, but I did it and the search pulled up a couple of pretty interesting little discussions.
The one that really grabbed my attention was from a guy who said he hated female sexuality. Which may not be “normal,” though as readers of this blog know it’s not uncommon. But this guy is no Christopher from Oregon, whose hatred of female sexuality is part of a package deal that includes hatred for pretty much everything female.
No, this guy hates female sexuality in part because, well, he thinks the male body is ugly and so assumes – or at least feels on a gut level — that any woman having sex with a man is being coerced, bamboozled, or raped. Yep, we’re talking about a rich and toxic stew of misogyny and misandry here. Let’s let him explain:
I Hate Female Sexuality
What little mysogyny I have in me is directed at female sexuality. I can’t stand it that females are attracted to males, ever. I hate them a little for it, just feel it in my gut. I thought for a long time when I was younger that females were basically asexual, not interested in sex, and that romance for them was something far removed from physical love. It didn’t occur to me that anyone might find the male form attractive, and I always suspected males were using some form of deception or raping women in some way when they were with them. I don’t understand this hate and distrust for my own sex. It really bothers me.
I hate that I feel there’s something wrong with a female having an active sexuality when I know intellectually there’s not. I’m a passionate feminist and attracted to females myself. I don’t really understand this feeling.
I think maybe a small part of it is jealousy when I see a couple, and the rest mostly my wierd, incongruous hatred for the male sex.
I don’t think females are doing something wrong but that something wrong is being done to them when they engage in sexual activity, even consentual, with a male, and they’re allowing it to happen, are complicit in it. This is just a feeling I have and can’t shake. It’s not overwhelming, like I’m freaking out whenever I see a couple but it’s there a lot, subtle but persistent. I’m atheist and I’m not someone who belives sexual promiscuity is wrong or even undesirable in male or females. This is just a wierd, lingering emotional problem, like fear of the dark or something like that.
Is it normal?
So, yeah. For what it’s worth, only 14% of those reading this confession rated it normal. But, as I said, I don’t think it’s uncommon. We grow up, after all, in a society that treats sexuality as a commodity that women possess, and that men try to “get” from women – by charming them into “giving it up,” by buying it directly or indirectly (by going to a prostitute or paying for dinner), or simply taking by force.
This way of thinking about sex is pretty deeply embedded in our culture; as regular readers of this blog know all too well, many MRAs, MGTOWers, and PUAs (especially) seem unable to conceive of sexuality in any other way. Neither does the questioner on Is It Normal (who goes by the name SamuraiPeeper), even though he’s a self-described feminist.
Like a lot of misogynistic ideas, this “women own sex, men must fight to get it” idea contains a heaping helping of misandry as well – suggesting that women basically don’t enjoy or desire sex with men because male bodies and male sexuality are inherently disgusting. It’s only a few small steps from this to SamuraiPeeper’s whole muddled mixture of desire and disgust, hatred and self-hatred.
The biggest difference between SamuraiPeeper and the MGTOWers and other misogynists I write about here is that he’s aware that his views are fucked up, and is trying actively to work through his issues. And he’s actually gotten some good responses to his query on Is It Normal?
PoisonFlowers suggests that some of his hatred and disgust probably stems from a fear of female sexuality:
Is it misogyny? I don’t think it’s as clear cut as that. Perhaps because the image you had of women (almost an idealised impression it seems) when you were younger has been destroyed (instead of having romance that is above sex, it turns out that women can be just as animalistic as men), you feel a sort of resentment and that mixes with the jealousy and then as you say “a weird, incongruous hatred for the male sex.” This then becomes a strong dislike for female sexuality.
Why do you have these feelings about men? Is it the people you’ve been surrounded with throughout your life and their behaviour/attitudes? Have you witnessed a man being abusive towards a woman at any point in your life? …
You say that you feel as though “something wrong is being done to them,” which could point to an urge in you to protect women, or perhaps it is more accurate to say to protect the _idea_ you have of women that stems from the concept you had when you were younger.
randomsensuality offers some similar observations:
It definitely sounds like you want to protect the idea of females as pure, with an almost divine stature. It also sounds like you have been taught or embraced the idea that penetrative sex is inherently degrading or immoral: therefore a woman who enjoys it is equally so.
Another bit on the matter is that many men do not find it attractive when women lead the hunt, as it were. They want to be the ones in control, in the pursuit of the sex and relationships. If a woman is as much “on the prowl” as he is, then he can’t say that it was a full conquest. He wants to know he’s been where others have failed to enter, that it took his prowess to crack the nut, setting him apart and making his mate a trophy and attribute to his stature.
Lets also not forget the angle of loathing the male form, which you say you can’t understand a woman being attracted to. If you are heterosexual male, this makes sense. Of course it’s easier to wrap your brain around lesbian sex, you like women, you understand innately attraction to women. Attraction to men, is scary for more than that reason though. If a woman is attracted to a man, then she could be attracted to any man the way a man can be attracted to any woman: this vision of the situation can induce pre-emptive jealousy and defensiveness.
Meanwhile, a 19-year-old girl calling herself so_damn_unpretty offers a blunter response – and one that might do the questioner as much good as the longer, more thoughtful responses:
I love men… and cock.. and sex… so i really cant relate.
In the end, that’s probably the most important takeaway here, as they like to say in the business world. Women – most women, anyway – genuinely like and enjoy sex as much as men. Sometimes more. When a guy “scores” with a woman — she is also “scoring” with him. Rigid gender roles that define man as the sexual pursuer and women as the sexual prize may make it hard to see this, but it’s true. Not only that, but women – heterosexual women, anyway – actually like and enjoy the male body.
Guys, know this: while you are watching sports, or playing video games, or playing with yourself, or knitting (or whatever your favorite hobby is), there are thousands of women writing, sharing, and reading slash fic about dudes (from various TV shows and movies and books) getting it on with each other. There are no women in these stories, at least not in the dirty parts. Just dudes, and their dude bodies, having dude sex with each other. Freud once asked: what do women want? And to that we have a partial answer: stories about Sam and Dean from Supernatural penetrating one another’s deepest mysteries.
It seems like the best argument Kratch has is “Feminists are just as evil as we are!” Which, well, speaks for itself don’t it.
I’m still sort of reeling and saddened by the revelation of MRAL’s realness and his age. I should’ve picked up when he gave his SATs in the post-2005 format.
Dear God, MRAL, don’t go around in a fury because you can’t get laid when you’re in the stage of life where lots of people haven’t been laid yet!
Just skimmed through the comments.
Is MRAL seriously complaining about men being discriminated against for not being attractive? Because I guarantee that affects women more. Listen, bro, if you’re not as attractive just ask the weirder looking girl out. Or just become exceptionally confident, because men can pull that off. Your biggest problem is self-esteem, and I can relate.
Also, height is nothing. Almost every guy I know who does exceptionally well with women is 5’8″ or shorter. Manlets, if you will. It’s not rare to see guys score with taller girls.
“David has, and nope, they aren’t. Each upvote of a comment, and downvote of an opposing one, indicates that the readership is in line with the former and against the latter. Are they “ignoring the idiots” by clicking a little thumbs up or arrow? Nooooope.”
Andrea Dworkin managed to get published, and sell enough to keep getting published, 11 books. I think that beats a handfull of upvotes any day (hence why she keeps coming up. you can’t claim she’s only one person and ignore all the books she sold, and then hold MRA’s accountable for a handful of upvotes). And you realize that ignoring the batshit crazies includes not clicking any arrows whatsoever. So while the comments are getting upvoted by the crazies (and the spearhead has it’s share of them, being the forefront of the MRA and so, acting as a net to catch and entertain the truely hateful. I’d rather they collected online then vent their anger on real people), they aren’t getting down-voted by the moderates, they’re getting ignored.
Hell, I don’t even go to the spearhead. I see it as a gateway site, where injured and hateful men congregate and express their anger and frustration. where they bandy together in a common rage, and once (if) they get it out of their system, they move on to more productive en devours. Feminists had bra burning and slutwalks for that.
What are the more productive, erm, “en devours”?
I’m honestly curious–not even messing with you–what a moderate MRA site looks like. One that’s about advancing men without harming women. Of course David doesn’t link to them, but they never seem to get linked in comments either. Can you point me to one?
Hmmmmmm…. well that didn’t really get the reception I expected. But it’s easy to be reassuring on the Internet. In real life people are more blunt, or honest, or whatever you want to call it. My experience in the real world has given me a different picture of how people view me. Although I will admit I am a bit surprised. And Ami, I literally cannot tell which eye is supposed to be smaller.
Gotta say, ami.. Those are some pretty awesome metallic pink glasses…
@kratch
You know, splitting my sentences up into pieces that don’t stand alone doesn’t do much good for criticism.. Neither does non-attribution or inserting one stray comment from someone else… 😐
Perhaps you are actually for father’s rights and so forth. If so, good for you I guess, but you must understand that talking to a group standing up for the opressed and saying “Actually, the opressors have a pretty bum rap too” won’t get you brownie points. Usually because it means you want attention diverted away from where its needed most and towards where it is needed… not so much.
Though if we are talking about MRAs that are absolutely foreign to you, say so! (You sort of have, but then take offense as if you don’t) State your position, and if it seems reasonable, I’ll be the first to agree with you, and explicitely say “From now on, when I mock MRAs and MGTOWers, I am not talking about you” if needs be. If your position is rediculous, however, then I shall continue my ridicule. Cheers.
“It seems like the best argument Kratch has is “Feminists are just as evil as we are!” Which, well, speaks for itself don’t it.”
Typical distortion and dismissal. How about this instead… There are “evil” (really? Evil? I’d go with hateful) people in both camps. You can’t judge an entire movement by the words of the few evil ones, but rather, by the actions of those doing something. You want to judge the MRM, judge it based on the actions and accomplishments of organization like S.A.V.E., False Rape Society and Fathers and Families. Just as I will judge feminism based on the actions of organizations like N.O.W.
Or would that shake your sense of moral superiority too much?
@MRAL that’s my point 🙂 Most ppl can’t tell with you either 🙂 (my glasses are obscuring it, as is my make up xD I do it like that on purpose… I’ll find a better pic later xD ) It’s my left eye btw (YOUR right)
@Kirbywarp Thank you! 😀 I’m glad you like them! 😀
The False Rape Society is largely devoted, as far as I can tell, to proving that no woman has ever been raped by a man in the history of the Earth.
I will admit that Eve the asshole’s post was extreme even for the fyminist movement. But the fyms still believe the essence of what she says, even if they don’t want to go out and actually kill men. That’s what the “rape culture” rhetoric is all about… a way to make men who haven’t actually raped complicit in rape. Never mind that women are part of our culture too.
Hay Kirbywarp 🙂 i hope it’s not too forward or nething… but do you have an IM or nething? 🙂 You just seem very nifty 🙂 (i have no idea how we can give comm info here privately tho 🙁 ) is also ok if you dun feel comfortable or nething 😀 (i am just a friendly person who likes cool funny ppl 😀 )
I’m waiting for the MRAL “I told you so xD”
the ” is in the wrong place >_>;;
(I’M POSTING COMMENTS TOO QUICKLY xD ) I may or may not be a spam bot D:
Aww, not at all, Ami. You seem pretty rad yourself. 😛 Though I am at a bit of a loss here.. Don’t have an IM sadly, but I do have a g-mail account. *shrug* There’s a usually some sort of chat thing there, right?
Heh, a spam bot with a blog would be a first, but troubling, development in annoying technology. Though I present to you a possible solution, courtesy of a rather fun webcomic.
spam bots
Hmm, I have google! There’s a chat thing there 😀
(drop me your ID on my blog, I have filtered comments there 😀 )
” If so, good for you I guess”
You guess? So, what, meh, I guess fathers could use someone speaking up for them. Equality? pshaw, that’s for women.
“but you must understand that talking to a group standing up for the opressed and saying “Actually, the opressors have a pretty bum rap too” won’t get you brownie points. Usually because it means you want attention diverted away from where its needed most and towards where it is needed… not so much.”
Oppressed? You do understand the definition of the word? Perhaps you can explain to me how women are oppressed. And please, don’t rely on the debunked myth of the gender wage gap, or the gender biased lies of domestic violence that all too often ignore male victimhood. As nether will hold water with me. And do realize you said your “standing up for the oppressed”, as in what is happening currently, so no going back 50+ years.
“and saying “Actually, the opressors have a pretty bum rap too” won’t get you brownie points.”
Why is that? because only women are aloud to be victims, or suffer discrimination or ill effects? Should we ignore the fact that this group standing up for the oppressed have done nothing about men’s oppression? or can men not be oppressed by things like alimony, paternity fraud, false rape allegations and mandatory draft registration? Seems pretty ignorant to me to dismiss someone else’s suffering in order to focus on your own alleged concerns, especially when the feminist movement promised equality (which, by it’s very definition, can not be relegated to only a single subset of the population. if it isn’t for all, it’s not equality) and the breaking down of gender roles. Well, it hardly seems unreasonable to point out the failure to meet those promises, or more specifically, the opposition to attaining those goals. You all huddle together and disparage the MRM, denouncing both it, and it’s goals, while continuing to claim to be about something that would, if true, would seek those same goals.
“usually because it means you want attention diverted away from where its needed most and towards where it is needed… not so much.””
And where is it needed most? rape issues? Ever consider that telling women they won’t be believed, and then making use of statistics that demonstrate a failure to prosecute to prove that accusation, while dismissing the effects of false allegations on those statistics (falsely accused just look like rapists that got away) and protecting the false accusers (and thus, encouraging more)… ever consider this has a far more detrimental effect then prosecuting false rape accusers, protecting men from the damage caused (damage that is, emotionally, very similar to rape, but lasts a lot longer (years) and comes with financial and social damages rather then physical) and as such, reducing the number of reports that get classified as a rapist walking free, resulting in a larger percent of prosecution, and more confidence for real victims to come forward…
nah, we can’t have that. Women are too important to take ones focus off of long enough to see the men in the scenario, and to see solutions that could benefit both genders.
Furthermore, who is to say where the attention is needed more? you demonstrate your misandry and female chauvanism to so easily dismiss men’s concerns and prop up women’s. And who said it is a zero sum situation anyways? Last I checked, government was made up of more then just one person and so isn’t limited in the amount of attention it can provide. And more precisely, if a minister for men was assigned, in an egalitarian move, that would allow someone to focus on men without even affecting the rest of government. But I suppose that would be too equal a concept for a feminist to consider, since it isn’t a women only solution.
XD @ the webcomic
some ppl might say that’s me xD The ultimate evolution of spambots! 😀
Alrighty, we’ll see if that worked.
Kratch: There are “evil” (really? Evil? I’d go with hateful) people in both camps. You can’t judge an entire movement by the words of the few evil ones, but rather, by the actions of those doing something.
The thing is, pretty much every MRM site I’ve seen is filled with toxic, hateful rhetoric and nothing else. Even (especially?) False Rape Society. Glenn Sacks (of Fathers and Families) is also someone who is way too invested in weakening rape laws and so forth, SAVE is apparently started to cater to the mail-order bride industry … I mean, I don’t know. I really wish that one of these groups were addressing some of the issues that MRM purports to address — without slipping into default woman-hate mode. But they just don’t.
Did not work 🙁 i dun have any new comments… :
Ah yes, where were we. Kratch:
“And please, don’t rely on the debunked myth of the gender wage gap, or the gender biased lies of domestic violence that all too often ignore male victimhood. As nether will hold water with me.”
You know, you saying they’ve been debunked doesn’t make it so.
“(2nd to last very long paragraph)”
So… You’re saying that letting more accused rapists walk will result in more victims coming forward? Really? Isn’t the deal that victims don’t come forward because they’re afraid of not being believed, being thought of as “false accusers,” or bringing a huge amount of shame upon themselves for being raped in the first place? I really don’t see the logic in your assertion.
@Ami
I think this last one went through, though I did put it under Anonymous to make sure there were no screw-ups with logging in…
Got it! 😀 I am trying to contact you nao 😀
“The False Rape Society is largely devoted, as far as I can tell, to proving that no woman has ever been raped by a man in the history of the Earth.”
All or nothing with you people. Couldn’t possibly be that False rape society is largely devoted to proving false accusations exists, and in greater numbers then some would have us believe, and that it is an issue as damaging to men as rape itself is to women. And that something needs to be done about it.
None of this denies the fact that women get raped, or that people need to be prosecuted for that crime. None of this denies that unless you are limited to a binary mentality. Rape is real in our society, or it’s false. There is no room for both.