Categories
feminism MGTOW misandry misogyny MRA rape sex

Hating female sexuality: Is it normal?

You'll see why I used this picture in a minute.

So I recently ran across a site called “Is It Normal?” The idea behind it is simple, and kind of wonderful: people confess some possibly odd thing about themselves, and others tell them if it’s normal. Now, normally (as it were) I’m against the too-rigid enforcement of what is considered “normal” behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality and sex roles. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. Ohhhh, no. We’re talking about grown men and women eating their own boogers; having sexual fantasies about zombies; feeling an urge to jump off of high places;  or wanting to be turned into a doll or manikin. (Hey, whatever floats your boat.)

Naturally, I did a search for “misogyny” just to see what turned up. Is that a normal thing to do? I don’t know, and I don’t care, but I did it and the search pulled up a couple of pretty interesting little discussions.

The one that really grabbed my attention was from a guy who said he hated female sexuality. Which may not be “normal,” though as readers of this blog know it’s not uncommon. But this guy is  no Christopher from Oregon, whose hatred of female sexuality is part of a package deal that includes hatred for pretty much everything female.

No, this guy hates female sexuality in part because, well, he thinks the male body is ugly and so assumes – or at least feels on a gut level —  that any woman having sex with a man is being coerced, bamboozled, or raped. Yep, we’re talking about a rich and toxic stew of misogyny and misandry here. Let’s let him explain:

I Hate Female Sexuality

What little mysogyny I have in me is directed at female sexuality. I can’t stand it that females are attracted to males, ever. I hate them a little for it, just feel it in my gut. I thought for a long time when I was younger that females were basically asexual, not interested in sex, and that romance for them was something far removed from physical love. It didn’t occur to me that anyone might find the male form attractive, and I always suspected males were using some form of deception or raping women in some way when they were with them. I don’t understand this hate and distrust for my own sex. It really bothers me.

I hate that I feel there’s something wrong with a female having an active sexuality when I know intellectually there’s not. I’m a passionate feminist and attracted to females myself. I don’t really understand this feeling.

I think maybe a small part of it is jealousy when I see a couple, and the rest mostly my wierd, incongruous hatred for the male sex.

I don’t think females are doing something wrong but that something wrong is being done to them when they engage in sexual activity, even consentual, with a male, and they’re allowing it to happen, are complicit in it. This is just a feeling I have and can’t shake. It’s not overwhelming, like I’m freaking out whenever I see a couple but it’s there a lot, subtle but persistent. I’m atheist and I’m not someone who belives sexual promiscuity is wrong or even undesirable in male or females. This is just a wierd, lingering emotional problem, like fear of the dark or something like that.

Is it normal?

So, yeah. For what it’s worth, only 14% of those reading this confession rated it normal.  But, as I said, I don’t think it’s uncommon. We grow up, after all, in a society that treats sexuality as a commodity that women possess, and that men try to “get” from women – by charming them into “giving it up,” by buying it directly or indirectly (by going to a prostitute or paying for dinner), or simply taking by force.

This way of thinking about sex is pretty deeply embedded in our culture; as regular readers of this blog know all too well, many MRAs, MGTOWers, and PUAs (especially) seem unable to conceive of sexuality in any other way. Neither does the questioner on Is It Normal (who goes by the name SamuraiPeeper), even though he’s a self-described feminist.

Like a lot of misogynistic ideas, this “women own sex, men must fight to get it” idea contains a heaping helping of misandry as well – suggesting that women basically don’t enjoy or desire sex with men because male bodies and male sexuality are inherently disgusting. It’s only a few small steps from this to SamuraiPeeper’s whole muddled mixture of desire and disgust, hatred and self-hatred.

The biggest difference between SamuraiPeeper and the MGTOWers and other misogynists I write about here is that he’s aware that his views are fucked up, and is trying actively to work through his issues. And he’s actually gotten some good responses to his query on Is It Normal?

PoisonFlowers suggests that some of his hatred and disgust probably stems from a fear of female sexuality:

Is it misogyny? I don’t think it’s as clear cut as that. Perhaps because the image you had of women (almost an idealised impression it seems) when you were younger has been destroyed (instead of having romance that is above sex, it turns out that women can be just as animalistic as men), you feel a sort of resentment and that mixes with the jealousy and then as you say “a weird, incongruous hatred for the male sex.” This then becomes a strong dislike for female sexuality.

Why do you have these feelings about men? Is it the people you’ve been surrounded with throughout your life and their behaviour/attitudes? Have you witnessed a man being abusive towards a woman at any point in your life? …

You say that you feel as though “something wrong is being done to them,” which could point to an urge in you to protect women, or perhaps it is more accurate to say to protect the _idea_ you have of women that stems from the concept you had when you were younger.

randomsensuality offers some similar observations:

It definitely sounds like you want to protect the idea of females as pure, with an almost divine stature. It also sounds like you have been taught or embraced the idea that penetrative sex is inherently degrading or immoral: therefore a woman who enjoys it is equally so.

Another bit on the matter is that many men do not find it attractive when women lead the hunt, as it were. They want to be the ones in control, in the pursuit of the sex and relationships. If a woman is as much “on the prowl” as he is, then he can’t say that it was a full conquest. He wants to know he’s been where others have failed to enter, that it took his prowess to crack the nut, setting him apart and making his mate a trophy and attribute to his stature.

Lets also not forget the angle of loathing the male form, which you say you can’t understand a woman being attracted to. If you are heterosexual male, this makes sense. Of course it’s easier to wrap your brain around lesbian sex, you like women, you understand innately attraction to women. Attraction to men, is scary for more than that reason though. If a woman is attracted to a man, then she could be attracted to any man the way a man can be attracted to any woman: this vision of the situation can induce pre-emptive jealousy and defensiveness.

Meanwhile, a 19-year-old girl calling herself so_damn_unpretty offers a blunter response – and one that might do the questioner as much good as the longer, more thoughtful responses:

I love men… and cock.. and sex… so i really cant relate.

In the end, that’s probably the most important takeaway here, as they like to say in the business world. Women – most women, anyway – genuinely like and enjoy sex as much as men. Sometimes more. When a guy “scores” with a woman — she is also “scoring” with him. Rigid gender roles that define man as the sexual pursuer and women as the sexual prize may make it hard to see this, but it’s true. Not only that, but women – heterosexual women, anyway – actually like and enjoy the male body.

Guys, know this: while you are watching sports, or playing video games, or playing with yourself, or knitting (or whatever your favorite hobby is), there are thousands of women writing, sharing, and reading slash fic about dudes (from various TV shows and movies and books) getting it on with each other. There are no women in these stories, at least not in the dirty parts. Just dudes, and their dude bodies, having dude sex with each other. Freud once asked: what do women want? And to that we have a partial answer: stories about Sam and Dean from Supernatural penetrating one another’s deepest  mysteries.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

491 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

Sorry, this post was too long. I pretty much got to the end of the part with the picture of Sam and Dean and I couldn’t go on because I was hypnotized by their beauty. *drools uncontrollably*

Brianne
Brianne
9 years ago

I don’t like Wincest but I do love some dude-on-dude action, and that closing paragraph was the bossest thing I have read all day. You rock!

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

Ok, I finally read to the end. The episode where Sam and Dean find out there’s slashfic about them is one of the best in the series!

Laura
Laura
9 years ago

I love hot guys…and slashfic!

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

I thought it was the angel who made pussies wet.

Anyway it’s well-written, but I’ve boycotted that show because it’s all about alphas.

darksidecat
darksidecat
9 years ago

I would also be interested in what this dude thinks of gay and bi men’s sexuality, though I suspect it isn’t very nice.

Also, I will again reiterate that I am a Dean/Castiel fan.

Am I the only one here waiting impatiently for the new Torchwood series that comes out on July 8? Torchwood is basically what an original show made entirely of fan fiction would look like…

Lady Victoria von Syrus
Lady Victoria von Syrus
9 years ago

@ DSC: I was wondering the same thing, it seems like this guy has some unresolved homophobia contributing to his skewed viewpoint of what female sexuality is like.

zombie rotten mcdonald

@LVVS: How about a simpler “repression and overcompensation?”

evilwhitemalempire
evilwhitemalempire
9 years ago

“We grow up, after all, in a society that treats sexuality as a commodity that women possess, and that men try to “get” from women – by charming them into “giving it up,” by buying it directly or indirectly (by going to a prostitute or paying for dinner), or simply taking by force.”

I think I’m beginning to understand why you runts pretend so fervently than men and women are the same and everything is learned.
Because if that’s the case then there is a chance that all the hot chicks can be ‘deprogrammed’ to not be sexual gatekeepers or to be turned off by the likes of you and so you can have a shot at them.
Well IF your premise were true then yes doing away with the ‘commodity model’ of human sexuality WOULD yield your ilk more poon that way.
But unfortunately your premise ain’t so.
So just keep on pretending.

Lady Victoria von Syrus
Lady Victoria von Syrus
9 years ago

@ Zombie:

My thought was that this is a guy who is turned off by the fact that women are turned on by men. When he contemplates a woman’s attraction, he has to contemplate being attracted to the male body. When he tries to empathize with a straight woman’s attraction to men, he experiences a moment of disgust. Maybe it’s latent homophobia, maybe it’s not, but I thought it worth bringing up.

@ EWME:

What about the sexual agency of the ‘hot chicks’? Because even the most attractive women are still people, and they still have desires, turn-ons and turn-offs.

mediumdave
mediumdave
9 years ago

Ooohkay. I’m not a “runt” by any measure, and I have no problem with women being sexual gatekeepers… as long as they’re not expected to be the sole gatekeepers. Bodily integrity, EWME, is for everyone.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

Where is the internet portal where EWME posts from?

I’ve never met a reality where women view every interaction as a Randian commerce interaction. It must be weird to live in a world where everything is established as a commodity.

amandajane5
amandajane5
9 years ago

This reminds me of that Ross Douthat column where he tells a story of hooking up with a woman who told him she was on the pill and he was immediately turned off. Creepy and weird.

Sounds like
Sounds like
9 years ago

someone that was bought up by a man hating feminist.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

This post makes me sad.

Sheesh.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

As a woman who has no idea who Sam or Dean are, I think the second to last paragraph is the bossest, myself.

So, I grew up reading stuff written by — I want to say homosexual men, mostly, but I think there were a fair number of straight men and women thrown in there, who described the female body in wholly unpleasant terms. It’s unruly. It leaks. It bleeds. It can squeeze out a baby. It is, in a word, disgusting. And I internalized that for a good portion of my early years. Then the ’90s and grrl power came, and women were kind of expected to reclaim and own our sexuality. You started hearing things about how women’s bodies were objectively beautiful, and of course women find other women gorgeous and sexy — how could they not? — and of course everyone finds penises to be pretty much comical and unattractive. I mean, I’m not sure how common these ideas were, but they were definitely things that were talked about in the area I lived in at the time, pretty much in those exact terms.

So, I guess what I’m thinking is, if someone grew up hearing that, it wouldn’t surprise me if they grew up internalizing that model of sexuality. He probably does need to hear a bunch of times that yes, straight and bi women find male bodies attractive, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

As a sidenote: I’m trying to think what kind of slash fanfic a person like me would like. The closest I’m getting is a Lupo/Bernard pairing, but I have to admit it’s mostly for the lulz.

EWME: I don’t want hot chicks. Try again.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

So…the full extent of EWME’s argument seems to be: ur a bunch of wimps and ur wimmenz is ugly.

My guess? He’s a middle school student who posts when his parents/teachers aren’t looking.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Plymouth YES xD Tho David misses that Cass/Dean is where it’s at >_>;;

Tho on Supernatural… MY PRECIOUS CASS WAS CHARACTER ASSASSINATED LAST NIGHT!!!! D: (i’m still not over it >_< I'LL NEVAR BEEE OVVERRR ITTTTTTT /melodrama)

I'm glad that ppl are trying to help him tho, I feel a little bad for him (tho he chose to post it there) cuz it's clear it's something he's kinda ashamed of feeling & hopefully ppl dun take that being posted here as that he should be mocked 🙁 we all have our sekrit things we feel bad about feeling 🙁 (except me, cuz I'm an angelcatbunny xD)

Holly
9 years ago

No, I think the gist of EWME’s argument is that all wimminz is whores, and if you disagree, that’s just your sad attempt to get sex for free.

mediumdave
mediumdave
9 years ago

This reminds me of that Ross Douthat column…

Yeah. It would be interesting to see an entry examining the similarity between the attitudes of the MRA’s and those of a gender traditionalist like Mr. Douthat.

Billy Buffle
Billy Buffle
9 years ago

David, you have no idea what kind of stigmas and trauma a man with a truly gigantic love handle has to deal with. Without being too indiscreet, I happen to be equipped with something like a baby elephant’s trunk. I’ve never been with a woman even once, every sexual encounter ends in screams and frightened looks, my own other avoids me in terror, and I can barely go out to buy coffee in the morning without the entire room staring uncomfortably at my gigantic package. I am so very lonely…

SallyStrange
SallyStrange
9 years ago

I think I’m beginning to understand why you runts pretend so fervently than men and women are the same and everything is learned.

Since you invented those positions without regard to any recognizable reality, I’d imagine it would be quite easy to understand why your imaginary runts and feminists think that way. I mean, when you make up fictional characters, you should be able to understand their thoughts and motivations, right?

Tuffy
Tuffy
9 years ago

Wait, Castiel is DEAD? Again? Good grief. They kill off characters way too easily on that show.

More importantly that picture does not do justice to Sam OR Dean. Now THIS is what I’m talking about:

http://tinyurl.com/3quqonz
http://tinyurl.com/373eq38

Want to LICK that…

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

@Holly,

So wimmenz are both whores and sexual gatekeepers? Those devious wimmenz!

Also, seriously, who uses “runt” as an insult? Is he Bluto from the old Popeye cartoons?

Tuffy
Tuffy
9 years ago

I guess they just keep the gates, uh, open…

Ya dirty rat! Twenty-three skidoo!

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

Did I just luck onto the one exception to Rule 34? It appears no one’s writing Lupo/Bernard fanfic. It’s Lupo/Cutter all the way for L&O fans — th’ sick bastards.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

You can keep your newfangled Supernatural stuff. As far as I’m concerned, Kirk/Spock is still the gold standard of slash.

Holly
9 years ago

I’ll never understand why “sexual gatekeeper” is supposed to be this big conspiracy women are running on men. I just see it as the only alternative to having sex with literally anyone.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

Anybody who writes or reads “slash” is worse than a fat chick.

mediumdave
mediumdave
9 years ago

Which tells you a lot about MRA sincerity, right there.

Amnesia
Amnesia
9 years ago

Obviously, that guy has never been introduced to Japanese boy bands.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Tuffy Nono! He’s not dead! I meant they assassinated his CHARACTER, not killed him off, they just made him into a villain 🙁

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

I’ll never understand why “sexual gatekeeper” is supposed to be this big conspiracy women are running on men

Especially since it was a “feminine virtue” that was dreamt up and expounded by men in the first place, after millenia of debasing and denigrating women for being the sexually insatiable sex.

Lady Victoria von Syrus
Lady Victoria von Syrus
9 years ago

Anybody who writes or reads “slash” is worse than a fat chick

But porn movies are A-OK, am I right?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Also @Tuffy YUM *_*

Tho I still love Justin Hartley so much _> )

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

(html ate my post 🙁 you can get rid of the last one, and this disclaimer if you want 🙂 )

Also @Tuffy YUM *_*

Tho I still love Justin Hartley so much

I had a weird dream last night involving Green Arrow from Smallville, Lancelot from Merlin (they kinda melded into the same hot person xD) And Clark and Arthur xD And I was like Chloe/Gwen…. it wasn’t THAT kind of dream, (we were heroing in the Marvel U) but it was pretty awesome 😀 (plus both guys kept trying to woo me >_> )

girlscientist
girlscientist
9 years ago

Come on, Sam and Dean are passé. It’s all about John and Sherlock now:
http://www.tnq-headquarter.com/mrq/wp-content/uploads/sherlock-bbc_425832a.jpg

Holly
9 years ago

Oh shit, I’m a fat chick who reads slash! I’m double bad! I’m the worstest ever!

…Good thing I have a boyfriend and a shit-ton of friends in real life who don’t actually care.

amandajane5
amandajane5
9 years ago

Have a look at the poster on this Wikipedia page and try to tell me this is not catering to the female gaze. That women like attractive half-naked men and that it was a major selling point for this show. I own this poster in the big size and keep it on my wall at all times, because it is gorgeous. Clark and Lex got me into slash! What fun it is! I have hundreds of friends around the world who I share this with. Sometimes we have social gatherings where there are practically no men present at all, so that we can all drool over the hot men and exchange sex stories.

The first time I sat in a room with a bunch of women that I’d only met on the internet before and heard a story that started with “Well, back when I was a dominatrix….” I admit to being a big shocked, I even blushed some probably, but that was ten years ago and it’s made my sex life much happier to just be in a community where this kind of thing can be discussed.

Also, I just happen to love it that in the slash world, one is assumed to be female unless they specifically state otherwise. It’s the only time in my internet life where I’ve seen that gender neutral handles are assumed to be female. It’s kind of nice! I know that no one will think for a second that my AJ handle isn’t female, but suffice it to say it’s not my only one. There are places where I don’t like to present as female because of the harassment.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

…Good thing I have a boyfriend and a shit-ton of friends in real life who don’t actually care.

But you should care! You should! Because…um, I don’t know why but you just should.

/not really

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I still dun get Sherlock here! Dx Stop taunting me! xD

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

Anybody who writes or reads “slash” is worse than a fat chick.

And this has been another episode of Things MRAL Says That No One Else Cares About.

Seriously, why the hell do you even care what they read or write? It’s not like anyone is forcing you to read it.

Holly
9 years ago

I think MRAL is fake. I really do by now. That thing about “I’ve boycotted that show because it’s all about Alphas.”–this guy does not exist. I simply cannot believe it. He’s too funny to be an actual person.

I do think he might be an actual misogynist, but my guess is that he’s a 4chan style “make me a sandwich, LULZ” misogynist who is merely roleplaying a deadly serious MRA.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

^ +1

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I just always assumed he was xD

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Holly, please stop spitting in the hideously deformed eye of MRAL! He is most certainly not fake! Just ask MRAO!

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

I’m not fake, I really don’t understand how anything I’ve said is that hard to believe. Sam and Dean are undoubtedly alpha alphas, like 99% of all other men onscreen. I’m sick of it, and have boycotted television and most films. It’s simple.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Hotdog! We have a wiener! xD

I think that just confirmed it xD

katz
9 years ago

MRAL: They can’t be Alphas. They’re not 8 feet tall.

And nobody cares whether or not you watch TV. It’s not a boycott if it’s only one person.

darksidecat
darksidecat
9 years ago

@Bee, the gay men issue intrigues me, because I have actually found the notion of the female body as filthy far more common amoung hetero guys. There is a certain subset of cis men who think of female bodily functions as this realm of great mystery, like some sort of secret alien form, and I see that one among cis gay men a bit more than among cis hetero men (though it is damned common among cis hetero boys). While there are gay men who are misogynists, gay male misogynists tend to like to just pretend women do not now and have never had existed, rather than obsessing over women’s lives and bodies.

1 2 3 10