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Using the myth of the “Pussy Pass” to justify rape and murder

From MEN-FACTOR

Quite a few MRAs and MGTOWers seem to have have convinced themselves that women rarely if ever serve real time, or face any real consequences, for committing crimes. In the parlance of the manosphere, this is known as the “Pussy Pass.”

Now, this is, of course, almost complete bullshit. Why the “almost?” Because women do in fact receive somewhat lesser sentences when compared with men committing the same crimes. (So do white people, though you don’t hear the MRA crowd talking much about the “Honkey Pass.” )

Are the lighter sentences for women the result of evil feminist man haters? Not so much, Ampersand of Alas, A Blog argues in a thoughtful look at several studies on the subject. The author of one study concludes, as Ampersand summarizes it,

that this may be caused by sexist paternalism among judges; women are seen less as full adults, and as being less capable of being responsible for their own actions, and as a result judges depart from sentencing guidelines to give women lighter sentences.

Another study found that, contrary to what virtually every MRA or MGTOWer would assume, male judges were more likely than female judges to give especially harsh sentences to men.  Let me repeat that: Male judges gave the harshest sentences to men. As the study’s author noted, “the greater the percentage of female judges on a district’s bench, the smaller the gender disparity.” (Emphasis mine.)

Just don’t try telling this to the MRA/MGTOW crowd. We saw the other day how the idea of the “pussy pass” – the notion that “the law does not serve justice” – has led some MRAs to advocate or voice their support for lynching female perps (with what degree of seriousness I don’t know).

Meanwhile, over on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum, nigeles175d “humorously” suggests that the supposed existence of the “Pussy Pass” should also give guys the right to rape women who happen to give them boners:

[I]f we men cannot control our passions as women often claim, why don’t we get a Dickie PassTM like women get the Pussy PassTM? If women cannot control their tears, their screams, their giggles, and if women are driven to poisoning or murdering their sleeping husbands and use the excuse of years of abuse and being unable to control their mental state, why do we not consider a similar excuse for men. The way some women dress (hint, hint, SlutWalkers) to deliberately entice men to want sex with them, why is it not an exonerrating circumstance in the same way as it is for women? It seems women are never made to take responsibility for their actions, nor are they ever held accountable. Alternatively, if men are not allowed it, but women are, then we’re treating them like children and they don’t deserve the vote or positions of authority.

And of course it all goes back to women having the vote — the source of all evil in the modern world. Attitudes like this are, of course, what make the Slutwalks (and feminism in general) necessary in the first place.

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MizDarwin
MizDarwin
10 years ago

And Chavonne is a teacher. No wonder students can’t write.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

It’s entirely possible that “Chavonne Ramirez” is exactly who she says she is, and she and her students are really learning a lot from the moderate MRM, but … why do I get the feeling that “Chavonne Ramirez” is unknown MRM writer Tim Goldich?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
10 years ago

Because you see with uncommon clarity Bee.

darksidecat
darksidecat
10 years ago

@David, I think some of them (such as use of a firearm) are controlled for by dealing with offense levels, but others, such as the issue of killings of strangers vs intimates, are not.

@Chavonne, you have some really obvious issues with your comments. First of all, while there is a relationship (statistically) between race and poverty, not all people of color are poor and not all poor people are people of color. While classism, racism, and sexism interact in complicated ways, suggesting that one oppressed group should just sit back and take oppression because there are other forms of oppression is bogus. Secondly, having a child “out of wedlock” is not a problem in and of itself. Shifting the blame from black fathers to black mothers (who, let’s face it, are already given far more than their fair share of blame) is no solution. Women of color also face disproportionate imprisonment (as compared to white women) and police violence. The problem is not black and latino women having too much power over their lives and bodies, the problem lies in the fact that we as a society do not give sufficient support to poor, single, or people of color who are parents, period, and that we live in a racist, classist, sexist, etc. society. Using black women, particularly black mothers, as the eternal scapegoat here is not a positive move either. And, the suggestion that poor mothers (or poor women in general) have less responsibility put on them than wealthy mothers (or wealthy women in general) is flat out bullshit, poor parents parent with far fewer resources and do it while working far more average hours outside of the home. Look, if you want to have a discussion in the ways that the benefits of the feminist movement have not been spread out equally among women, we can have that discussion (it is an excellent discussion, and one worth having), but this nasty attitude you have towards poor women and single mothers is just ridiculous sexist crap.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
10 years ago

Chavonne, many feminists do care about men’s issues. I do not think the MRM is doing much to actually address the issues, though. You brought up the name of Paul Elam, so I guess you and your class are reading the posts at his website, A Voice for Men. Do you or your students really believe that his writings are moderate? Did you not find any misogyny in his posts or from his commenters?

You mentioned the problem of prison rape. Just Detention is dedicated to helping both men and women serve sentences safely. Why isn’t the MRM working with Just Detention to help the victims rather than using the problem as a rhetorical weapon to minimize and deny the problem of rape outside of prison? You can read one of Elam’s own articles about rape here:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/02/22/the-scourge-of-rape-yeah-whatever/

Read what he said and the read what his fans wrote in the comments section. You can form your own opinions about they wrote, and then decide if the feminists here are intellectually dishonest for disagreeing with him. Here is another link for the MRM take on the issue of domestic violence:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/2010/10/22/if-you-see-jezebel-in-the-road-run-the-bitch-down/

Could you provide links to the well written pieces you have found in the MRM? I realize that many men in society have serious problems. I just don’t believe the MRA’s are doing much to actually deal with them. Instead they are attacking women’s rights as a way to even the score for their perceived wrongs.

chavonne ramirez
chavonne ramirez
10 years ago

So…as a class we randomly selected and posted to your site as well as others. Your responses have been very telling. We have visited several sites (MRA’s and Feminist blogs). We must admit that we were uncertain about what we would discover. However,the past couple of weeks have been very revealing and in the case of many of our previously held beliefs about femini-sm/st it has been at times disappointing. One poster on this page actiually focused more on our writing style (purposely simplistic) than addressing the content.The truth is that the MRAs are no more hateful and sacrcastically dismissive than many of you have been on a number of sites. Given the recommended writings that we became familiar with during this time, we suspect that the voices of these MRA’s will continue to grow. Our personal belief is that they should become more apart of the mainstream dialogue on gender issues if we truly desire equality. Nonetheless, we apologize for being deceptive.

“chavonne ramirez”
Counseling Psychology
Practicum Seminar Students

Snowy
Snowy
10 years ago

Uh huh. And is that the royal we “chavonne ramirez”.

Yaz
Yaz
10 years ago

‘the truth is that the MRAs are no more hateful and sacrcastically dismissive than many of you have been..’ – Chaconne.

Being intolerant of the intolerant is not intolerance. As the saying goes: We may not be able to change the world, but at least we can embarrass the guilty. So when the MRAs spew their hate, they get snark and thorough mocking in return. Which, you may not have noticed is the purpose of this Blog, if not the purpose of feminism.

We have found your written comments regarding our tone to be humorously arrogant and presumptuous. We have also found them to lack merit. We are very disappointed. We will be grading you accordingly.

‘Yazatas Internetpersona’
Supreme Ruler of this corner of the Universe.
Speaking in the Imperial ‘We’

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

WE WILL SOON FEAST ON SPIDER-MAN’S SPLEEN!

Venom
How to kill Spider-Man
He’s also Peter Parker

Holly
10 years ago

You made it a class project to troll and sockpuppet a blog comment section?

You’re either the worst professor ever or the worst liar ever.

Yaz
Yaz
10 years ago

‘You’re either the worst professor ever or the worst liar ever.’ – Holly

Why can’t he/she be both?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Hay! Intersectionality! Can’t they be both? xD

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Jinx. Beer. Now.

xD

Charizard. Hamburgers. Now.

>_>;;

Lyn
Lyn
10 years ago

@ chavonne ramirez – feminist sites do have lengthy discussions about the problems in the movement.

For example see some old but really excellent posts on this issue: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/02/28/who-gets-to-say-what-part-i-tokenism/

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/26/on-those-pictures-and-on-privilege/

These kinds of discussions seem absent from much of the MRM pages. I have seen some pretty big stuff ups on feminist sites relatively recently, of big feminist sites (Feministe) being accused of racism, but the thing is that these things were then at least discussed. Accusations of misogyny, from what I have observed, seem to receive short shrift from MRA.

Basically, yes, feminists fuck up (pretty regularly in regard to racism and ablism) but there are sections of the community that really want to fix that.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Chavonne,

I’m in the profession, and I’m curious: where do you teach? Also, what clinical skills are you hoping to teach your students with this exercise?

Holly
10 years ago

If this person does teach (yeah, and I’m an astronaut rock star dinosaur), it’s not under the name “Chavonne Ramirez.” That name only comes up on MRA blogs and on news blogs pushing MRA viewpoints.

chavonne ramirez
chavonne ramirez
10 years ago

…and once again you all missed it. WE are a class of seminar students. Chavonne Ramirez is a fictional character. We’ve been exploring culture bound barriers in counseling practice and the role of certain biases in preventing effective treatment. What started as a discussion amongst classmates led us to “look into” a few things for ourselves. Disturbing! ” Snark and thorough mocking of mras.. the purpose of feminism” the assumption you all seem to be making is that your “truth” is THE truth and that there is no merit to any of the mras position on the issues. We will no longer post to your site..our apologies again

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Yeah, I noticed a thread on “a voice for men” where she claimed to know three women whose sons had been tricked into impregnating their girl friends and now had to pay child support. I suppose it’s possible, but it seems a bit suspect.

Also, a “practicum” in Counseling Psychology is where students go out and practice counseling at a site in order to gain experience for graduation and eventual licensure. It’s entirely possible to have a seminar connected with the practicum, but engaging in the activity described seems a bit odd. It’s not clear what clinical or training purpose it might serve, especially over the course of several weeks.

Nobby
Nobby
10 years ago

Wait. So a site who’s entire purpose is to point out misogyny, and happens to target MRA sites, is at blame for mocking MRA sites? I mean, i guess you can take issue with that purpose, but you can’t claim it’s masquerading as anything else.

Also, this is not a site to discuss feminist issues. They come up often, but that is not the purpose of this site. That is a biased sampling, and not representative of feminism.

Holly
10 years ago

“It was a social experiment!”

This isn’t a feminism blog. I mean, it’s certainly feminist-friendly, but it’s a blog specifically dedicated to mocking MRAs, not to general feminism. You can find more of that at Feministe, Feministing, Ms. Magazine, etc. Mocking MRAs is hardly a defining characteristic of feminism; it’s just the purpose of this particular blog.

Nobby
Nobby
10 years ago

Man, you’re jinxing all over today, Holly.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

@chavonne ramirez

Well…I guess your concern is duly noted.

A tip, though, from someone who has worked in the field for a while now: empathy doesn’t solve everything. Some people are truly bad.

Have you considered the possibility that the leaders of the MRM are in fact misleading these damaged and angry individuals? Instead of encouraging them to work on themselves and take responsibility for their actions and lives, the leaders of the MRM encourage men to blame women, specifically feminists. Far from encouraging any kind of social activism, the MRM encourages its followers to marinate in their own hatred–with occasional tragic results (Jahred Loughner, anyone?).

If you are who you say you are, I frankly find your attitude to be dangerously naive. Sure, feel free empathize with your male clients, by all means. Sure, seek to remedy genuine injustices wherever they may be. But never forget that there are abusers and sociopaths out there. Believe me, this is something you will learn if you spend any time working in the field after graduation. Once you’ve had that experience, the motives of the leaders of the MRM at any rate may become clearer to you.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

I would like to add, moreover, that we are a set of conjoined triplets with 17 different personalities between us. And yet we all agree on this one thing.

Simone Lovelace
10 years ago

Hivemind formerly known as Chavonne: is it possible that the snarky reception you received had something to do with the fact that your post smelled strongly of fakery and trolling, and had little actual content?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

David, fluctuate blogging resonance frequencies. Random settings. Keep them changing. Don’t give them time to adapt.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Yeah, that and the fact that “chavonne” made a grand total of one (really long) post before the big reveal. I’m thinking now that it’s a troll without any self-restraint. “Chavonne” could have taken his/her/its time and really strung us along, but he/she/it couldn’t resist spilling the beans right away. Oh well, you had me for a minute there.

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

I’m blanking on the name of the last concern troll to show up here, but I remember the writing style being different. Is this a new one?

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Whoops, my mistake. Not a concern troll; a huckster masquerading as a concern troll.

It’s a new twist, I’ll say that for him.

katz
10 years ago

Two posts before the reveal. Certainly if this was a class project it was a terribly designed one, given that only one person posted only one opinion.

But that possibility is highly unlikely. As aforementioned, the horrendous conventions strain credulity (even as part of a persona), and they’re all obviously written by the same person.

Plus, an actual class would have no reason to reveal what they were doing *at all*, much less to defend it.

Yaz
Yaz
10 years ago

The learned Hivemind turned my words : ‘So when the MRAs spew their hate, they get snark and thorough mocking in return. Which, you may not have noticed is the purpose of this Blog, if not the purpose of feminism.’

Into : ‘What started as a discussion amongst classmates led us to “look into” a few things for ourselves. Disturbing! ” Snark and thorough mocking of mras.. the purpose of feminism”’ – Hivemind Chaconne

And accuse the posters here of intellectual dishonesty. That’s rich.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Chavonne can clear this up. Tell us what posters were members of the seminar, and let us evaluate the quality of their work. After all, we are accused of dissecting one persons, “style” (which was supposed to be intentionally simplistic).

Fine, but this smacks of charlatanism. “Some posts” of the recent past were by “seminar students” who looked at our reasoning and compared to the “moderate” MRA sites.

Fine, one, we’d like to see the moderate MRAs, (because, as we’ve said, there are valid issues about males in the culture/society) and two… knowing just what comparative comments (here vs. at the Moderata MRA) are, so that we can see why it was a more persuasive style of argument there.

It might also be nice to know what lies we told.

In short, as an academic, own your words.

gwallan
gwallan
10 years ago

I’m a member of a rape crisis service in Australia and have been engaged in advocacy for victims for more than a decade. My state changed it’s sexual assault laws in the late nineties after it had become obvious that no female molester of a male could be convicted due to the gender specific wording of the statutes. Since that time dozens of women have been presented to our courts and convicted but only ONE saw any prison time. The judges involved were of both sexes.

Consensus among survivors is that we’d be better off if the laws had never been changed and it was still legal for women to rape little boys. The media and community mock the victims. The perpetrators are treated by the media and the courts as though they are the actual victims and the inevitable denial of justice ALWAYS occurs.

I’m not inclined to the expression “pussy pass” but there is absolutely no justice available for any male victim of a female abuser.

Yaz
Yaz
10 years ago

‘…there is absolutely no justice available for any male victim of a female abuser.’ – gwallan

That’s some pretty strong hyperbole.

Amnesia
Amnesia
10 years ago

If I’m not mistaken, the ‘pussy pass’ does go by another name: Female Privilege.

Both seem to come from the idea that being a woman actually gives you some real advantages in society. But when you actually think about it, the kind of ‘advantages’ women are given are more like the ‘advantages’ we give minors. Given lesser sentences for crimes, not expected to fight in wars, expected to have someone else take care of them, expected to be seen and not heard…

In either case, those ‘advantages’ are given because of an underlying belief that people of those groups can’t be treated like adults.

gwallan
gwallan
10 years ago

Yaz said…

That’s some pretty strong hyperbole.

Tell that to the kids who watch their rapist walk out the front door of the courthouse. Tell that to the victims who are laughed at and called liars if they dare contact the police or a rape crisis/counselling service. Tell that to the young man forced to pay child support to his rapist.

What is hyperbole in your mind is travesty for them. Nice to see how much you care.

Yaz
Yaz
10 years ago

It’s not a matter of whether I care or not. But nice attempt at shaming me. Making a broad sweeping statement that precludes any exceptions means your statement can’t be taken seriously.

No justice. Ever. For any male victim of a female. Ever in the history of the world. Period. So those female murderers that are currently sitting in prison or death row because they killed a man? It’s all fiction. Never happened.

It’s ridiculous. No one argues there’s a problem, but you’ve taken it to new heights of paranoia and irrationality. Do try to retain some perspective. Or continue to speak in hyperbole if you must..but don’t expect to be treated seriously.

‘Tell that to the kids who watch their rapist walk out the front door of the courthouse. Tell that to the victims who are laughed at [or put on trial themselves and shamed] and called liars if they dare contact the police or a rape crisis/counselling service.’ – gwallon

This happens to rape victims of both genders. Who’s attackers were of either gender. Rape has a low conviction rate regardless of the gender of attacker or victim. It’s terrible and it’s one of the most important arguments for why we need feminism.

Holly
10 years ago

Gwallan – Don’t you think the solution is justice, rather than “ugh I totally give up?” You work for a rape crisis center–can’t you do something in your own center to encourage understanding for male victims of women, and outreach to other centers and advocate to the police and courts on this issue?

You may have noticed that nothing in this post or comments denies the existence of the [lady] pass. We agree that it happens (although we debate the extent). We just want to make it clear that feminists don’t like it either.

gwallan
gwallan
10 years ago

@Yaz…

So tell me, where are these rape crisis centres that laugh at female victims and call them liars? How many women have been laughed out of police stations when they reported being raped? These are quite normal experiences for male victims and victims of female perpetrators in my country.

I work with victims of both genders and participate in national and global survivor networks. I know perfectly well what happens to them. There is absolutely no equivalence in the treatment the respective sexes experience in these matters and you know full well that is the case. It needs to be said that there is far more to justice than the decisions of judiciary alone.

By the way, to complain about “hyperbole” on my part in this environment really is laughable.

Holly
10 years ago

Gwallan – A lot of women get laughed out of police stations, actually. I work in an ER and I’ve seen it–if you’re drunk, high, dressed “wrong,” you were in the “wrong” area or at the “wrong” party, or if you don’t have visible injuries–good luck reporting sexual assault, much less prosecuting.

But as I said, I think the remedy for this is absolutely tireless advocacy, not giving up, making creepy genital insults, and adopting “if men have it worse then it’s okay to hate women” thinking.

gwallan
gwallan
10 years ago

@Holly…

I have the privilege of living in the only Australian state in which male victims can access services. Across the rest of the country the situation with equivalent services is as I’ve detailed. That male victims CAN access help in my state is not due to the government but rather the hard work of a few individuals within the network. Aside from access to counselling everything else is the same as the rest of the country – perpetrators not punished and treated as though they are the victim, media and community mocking of victims, often a complete absence even of an acknowledgement that they exist. At least our media isn’t publishing lists of “hot female sex offenders” as has happened in the US quite regularly and as recently as this week in Texas.

Our view is that this state’s model could be applied nationwide and lobbying along these lines is continuing. Frankly I don’t expect any success until there is a change of federal government. At this time the political will simply isn’t there. It saddens me to say that the political party I’ve been a part of all my life is also the primary agent in the marginalisation of male victims and victims of female abusers in my country.

re feminists it may be more accurate to say that “some don’t like it”. When male victims started to be admitted some eight years ago there were elements within the network who did everything they could to disrupt activities for those victims. Fortunately those elements have been moved on.

AbsintheDexterous
AbsintheDexterous
10 years ago

perpetrators not punished and treated as though they are the victim, media and community mocking of victims, often a complete absence even of an acknowledgement that they exist

At least in the US, that pretty much happens to most rape victims, regardless of gender.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Gwallan: Even if we stipulate that only one person in a bit more than a decade, has been convicted of female on male rape, do you think the problem is the law… or the social attitudes which allow peoplel to mock victims?

I agree, it’s a travesty if the accused are treated like the victims (which we know never happens in courts when men are the accused. Never), but do you really think making it legal for one group to prey on another is actually the better course of action?

I don’t

gwallan
gwallan
10 years ago

@Holly…
“A lot of women get laughed out of police stations, actually”

Not in my country they don’t and there would be hell to pay if it happened. Furthermore being doubted because of their attire would be a huge leap forward for male victims of female abusers. Understand that they are expected to want it. If they’re not desperately yearning for it there’s something wrong with them. They are sluts regardless of dress or demeanour and don’t have to do anything but be male to be “asking for it”.

Holly
10 years ago

Gwallan – Often that’s true, and it’s terrible. Let’s change it.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Gwallan: So tell me, where are these rape crisis centres that laugh at female victims and call them liars? If that is happening,it’s not a problem of law. That’s a problem for the rape crisis centers to deal with. I agree there is more to justice than the decisions in the court room, and if this is happening, you need to look to your own house first.

Get with the program, stop letting the advocacy group for rape victims participate in shaming a population of those who have been raped. I’d say that’s no small part of the injustice right there.

Because being, “laughed out of police stations in my country” (and which is is, your state, or all of Australia?) isn’t limited to your country, and it’s not limited to male victims.

On to the facts: An overview of sexual assault on males in Australia

Conclusion

Male sexual assault, like all acts of violence, is a violation of personal integrity. The experience of victimisation can also conflict with certain dominant notions of masculinity in patriarchial societies, characterised by sexism and homophobia, contribute to fear of disclosure for male victim/survivors of sexual assault. Like all underreporting, this results in inadequate data to enhance our understanding of the crime. Inadequate legal definitions of the crime and a scarcity of support services further mask the real extent and impact of male sexual assault.

Like female survivors of sexual assault, males struggle with traumatic symptoms and disrupted lives. Some of these symptoms may be in relation to their sexuality and the masculine role, requiring specialist support and creative options for treatment to assist their recovery. An adequate range of services and agency responses is only part of the vision required to understand and respond effectively to male sexual assault. As Bavinton (cited in ACSSA, 2003) stated:

The other impediment to the recognition of the impact of sexual violence for boys and men is the attitude that even if it does happen, they are not harmed or affected by it, that sexual abuse is not really an important issue for our community (p. 18).

The community surrounding the boy or man needs to be the target for support and reform. The community not only includes the survivor, but also their supports, the offenders and the society that cultivates the context in which the assault occurs.

Thats from an official publication of the Australian institute of family studies. It seems to me, from your description, the problem, such as it is, is that the “supports” are failing. From your own description, a major part of that failing seems to be in the (alleged) ridicule the victims are getting from the rape crisis centers, because this abstract also says, “But being a male victim can still have significant implications when treatment options are only within more female-oriented support services. As with any disclosure of sexual abuse, male victims, like females, have to deal with the ambiguity of what equates with consent and coercion, especially when sexually abused by a partner (male or female offender) or when date raped.

The limited avenues in terms of services, skills and policies that address male sexual assault further discourage males to disclose, despite the fact that sexual assault services in most Australian states and territories provide services to males to some extent (Bavinton, 2003; Worth, 2003). Like all forms of sexual assault, there is inadequate recognition of male sexual assault by clinicians, health care workers and researchers, as well as men’s reluctance to disclose.

So there is an institutional problem, but the awareness of female on male abuse is there, “Common myths surrounding the sexual abuse of boys include views that downplay the impact of the abuse, particularly the psychological impact, and also the myth that perpetrators are invariably homosexual males (Mezey & King, 2000). …

While there is no prototypical circumstance that boys may find themselves in when abused, compared to girls, boys are more likely to be:

* abused outside the home;
* victim to extra-familial abuse;
* abused by males and/or females; and
* abused around witnesses (Hussey, Strom, & Singer, 1992; Tardiff, Auclair, Jacob, & Carpentier, 2005).

So the adminstrative understanding is there. What needs to be changed is the social one. Go ahead and throw your hands up, but if you are actually saying it would be better if it were still legal for women to rape men, you are part of the problem.

A big part of the problem if you work for a rape crisis centre.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

Gwallan: I do not live in Australia, and I know little about the Australian people, government, or policies. What you’re saying seems a little familiar to me, as someone experienced with U.S. rape law and support for victims, but it seems to me that either Australia is very backwards in its handling of male rape victims, or you’re overstating your message. I would never say things are great for male rape victims in the U.S. There’s a lot of work to be done to get support for male victims even to the place where support for female victims is (which itself is far below where it should be). But, for example, I have worked with male victims reporting rape, and I treat them with dignity, respect, and patience. I have seen the paucity of options they have for help, but I have seen that there are options, and there is help. I would never say, as you have, that the system and the community wholesale mock male survivors or that the survivors I work with believe it would be better for them if male rape was legal. I know that I do the best I can, and that as an advocate I make darn sure that the police officers we’re working with take them seriously.

That said, here (as well as in Australia) the majority of people who rape men are men, and (in Australia if not here) male victims who go to trial are more likely to see their abuser sentences. Good for them. My sympathy is not determined by a person’s gender; but neither does my sympathy for male victims prevent me from trying to determine the boundaries of the problems they’re facing. Women rape a lot less often — or at least that’s what statistics show (certainly those statistics are hiding unreported instances of rape and sexual assault, and those non-reports are a problem, but as a rape crisis worker, you wouldn’t be aware of those cases anyway so we can ignore them for the purposes of this conversation). That you’ve decided to come here and focus on the smaller problem of women not being adequately punished (still a problem; no one’s denying that) instead of the much, much larger problems faced by male victims as a whole sounds suspiciously like the MRM’s tactic of insisting that it’s doing things to help men while single-mindedly demonizing women. Why is that?

As I say, I know little about Australia, but it just seems odd to me that a freaking rape crisis worker would challenge the idea that female victims are also disbelieved more than they should be. That doesn’t happen in Australia? Really? Because it sure as hell does happen in the U.S.

And according to at least one account on the internet, the change in the law’s wording to accommodate men raped by women was due to the efforts of feminist and gay-rights activists. Believe me — I really want to believe that you are what you say you are. But my alarm bells are going off. You sound less like a rape crisis worker, more like an MRA who has spent a bit of time doing his homework. Which puts you a step ahead of the rest of the MRM crowd, congrats.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

tl;dr Sorry.

Concise BEE: Boy, there is a very long, very important conversation that could be had about the various ways our governments and communities and ingrained ideas about how things have to be fail men — and particularly fail men who have been raped — and how those governments and policies and communities and stereotypes should be changed. I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t feel like having that discussion with someone who appears to have an anti-woman agenda.