There have been some strange, but hardly surprising, reactions in the MRA-verse to the arrest of IMF Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn on attempted rape charges.
On The False Rape Society blog, Pierce Harlan seems bothered that the police would arrest such an important man, citing an assortment of articles saying that Strauss-Kahn’s arrest will likely have a big effect on markets and on the global economy.
Harlan titles his piece: “So rape claims aren’t taken seriously? Reuters says the claim against Strauss-Kahn could impact “the well-being of the global economy.” After quoting from an assortment of news stories that suggest that, yes, Strauss-Kahn’s arrest has already affected markets and could affect the global economy, Harlan ends with this petulant conclusion:
All because of a disputed rape allegation. Right now, that’s all it is. I have no idea if a crime was committed, and neither do you.
But I know one thing: the entire world is taking very seriously — and perhaps way too seriously — the word of an unnamed maid it knows nothing about.
First of all, just as we don’t know whether or not Strauss-Kahn is guilty of this alleged attack, we also don’t know what evidence the police have. What we do know from other media accounts suggests that there is more to go on than the “word of an unnamed maid” – including DNA and other evidence at the scene, footage from the hotel’s security cams, injuries suffered by the maid, who was treated at a local hospital. There may well have been witnesses too; we simply don’t know. (Also, the maid has now been named in the French press. Wonderful.)
Second, and more importantly, why should the fact that the arrest has affected world markets have any bearing whatsoever on the case? By this logic, no important political or financial figure should ever be arrested for anything.
To make myself perfectly clear here: Harlan does not say explicitly that DSK is too important to be arrested on the word of a lowly maid, but that seems to be the implicit suggestion of his post, the whole reason to quote several articles about the effect this is having on the world economy, all because of “the word of an unnamed maid [the world] knows nothing about.” I have asked him to clarify what exactly he did mean, and he has refused. In a followup post he asks rhetorically “Have we handed an unnamed maid too much power to destroy a presumptively innocent man?” and answers himself by saying “The question scarcely survives its statement.” Which I will take as a “yes.” He goes on to say:
We reported yesterday what the world press is saying about the sexual assault claim against Dominique Strauss-Kahn. About how it could impact not only the IMF he heads, and France where is a presidential hopeful, but the global economy itself. It is widely believed that Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s reputation has been marred beyond repair, regardless of the outcome of this affair.
To say this is morally grotesque does not capture the evil of what is happening to a presumptively innocent man. …
If there is a running theme in this blog, it is this: we have handed anonymous women and children far, far too much power to destroy the lives and reputations of presumptively innocent men before even a scrap of evidence has been introduced to prove their guilt.
If I am reading this correctly — and please correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Harlan — he is saying that ALL men are too important to be arrested on sexualk assault charges based on the word of “anonymous women and children.”
Again, let me ask you, Mr. Harlan, is this what you mean? I invite everyone here to read the two posts in question — the first one here; the second one here — and tell me what you think he is trying to say.
Mr. Harlan, if you want to clarify what you mean here, I will put that clarification up without comment as a post, under a neutral headline (Pierce Harlan clarifies what he meant in his posts on the Dominique Strauss-Kahn arrest”).
I would also like to point out, again, that the police seem to be going on a lot more than the “word of an unnamed maid,” including surveillance tapes, statements from those who spoke to the maid immediately after the alleged incident, DNA evidence in the room. There may also be DNA evidence on her clothing; that we don’t know. But it seems fairly clear that there is evidence beyond the maid’s testimony.
Meanwhile, over on In Mala Fide, a guest blogger from Human-Stupidity.com, an MRA site that devotes a lot of its attention to railing against child porn laws, attacks the accuser and dismisses the charges. It’s hard to know what in the post is sarcasm and what is simply astounding stupidity. But as far as I can figure it, Mr. Stupidity is far more distressed by reports that the maid accidentally walked in on a naked Strauss-Kahn than he is by the possibility that he sexually assaulted her:
The story is very strange, and dominated by clear mistakes and screwups committed by the accuser. A five-star hotel maid trespasses into a naked client’s room? Unforgivable. …
This is not supposed to happen in a high-class hotel. Were the sex roles inverted, were a male employee to walk in on a prominent female guest, like Mrs. Hillary Clinton, the male employee would be fired and arrested for sexual harassment.
Mr. Stupidity then goes on to suggest that such a powerful man would never try to rape anyone because, you know, powerful men don’t do that sort of thing.
A hitherto well behaved, civilized man, suddenly goes crazy? Just because he was naked, he wanted to take advantage of her and rape her?
A man pictured on the covers of magazines, admired by millions of women, who could get any woman he wanted with a snap of his fingers. A man from a country with legalized prostitution who could afford two luxury prostitutes per day, if he happened to be a sex addict. And this guy, exactly the moment the woman walks in, illegally, incorrectly, grabs her and rapes her?
Never mind that other women are coming forward with stories of assaults by Strauss-Kahn, suggesting that he may not be quite so well-behaved as Mr. Stupidity assumes.
So what does Mr. Stupidity think really happened? After raising the possibility that this is all some political setup, he ends the piece suggesting that the maid – who, he says “committed a serious professional lapse, almost a crime” by accidentally walking in on Strauss-Kahn – simply made up the story in order to protect her job. Because maids are instantly fired for accidentally walking in on guests? Because never ever in the history of hotels has a maid walked in on someone naked? (A quick Google search suggests not only that this is relatively common, but also that it’s a sexual fantasy of quite a few men.)
Meanwhile, Ben Stein – not, as far as I know, an MRA, but a neocon and a bit of a dick – has offered his own highly problematic defense of Strauss-Kahn, which boils down to, well, envy:
this is a case about the hatred of the have-nots for the haves, and that’s what it’s all about. A man pays $3,000 a night for a hotel room? He’s got to be guilty of something. Bring out the guillotine.
More on this as it develops. And it’s developing fast.
David: Re. your communications with and about Shayna, I actually found EWME’s rape-apologist comment to be personally insulting and threatening, as I imagine he meant it to be for women who have been raped. However, your blog, your rules — I don’t mean to step on any toes here. I just want to point out that if Shayna got the idea that insults and threats to commenters are okay, I think I see where she got it.
I agree it’s creepy that MRAs are always looking for a blow-by-blow description of how to get consent. It’s like everything has to be a transaction for them. It boggles their minds that yes, you have to keep monitoring for consent. You mean I have to check again??? And then I might have to change my actions to make my partner more comfortable??? Heaven forbid that I don’t get to just steam along on my own path to pleasure regardless.
If you can’t tell that your partner is not having a good time, it’s not your partner who has the problem.
your partner is participating so enthusiastically that there’s no question that they’re willing
The only kind of sex worth having.
Roving Thundercloud: Aside from the shaming language (aka “it’s creepy that you say this”), that argument is dishonest at best. It’s not like MRAs (or men in general) are looking “for a blow-by-blow description of how to get consent” just for the sake of saying something. It’s thanks to feminists looking to define pretty much any male-female interaction as rape. I think it’s pretty natural, then to ask “just how do I act around a woman so it’s not construed as rape?” and shaming those who ask the question isn’t the most constructive answer. Just saying.
The above isn’t directed at those who actually answered the question in a thoughtful manner, but rather those few who had the kneejerk response of “creepy! rape apologist!” etc etc.
@Ion ‘It’s thanks to feminists looking to define pretty much any male-female interaction as rape.’ Wow, and you talk about shaming? And how is giving very precise answers to your question “Defining all interactions as rape”? Get a grip.
@Ion good you made an exception, but don’t make the all too common mistake of saying ‘feminists say X’, especially when you have ample evidence otherwise.
Seraph: There is one case I forgot to mention – when the woman actually consents but later decides that she actually didn’t. Yes, it happens. And no matter how much feminists try to shout down and marginalize those who talk about false rape claims, they happen too.
(I know, triple post = bad. Is there any way to edit posts? it’d be a lot better and less messy.)
Ion: It’s thanks to feminists looking to define pretty much any male-female interaction as rape.
Saying things like that is a good way to make people think you are either not paying attention, or are not acting in good faith.
Rape, and I defy you to find any of the feminists here who has said any differently) is a sexual act performed by one person on another without their consent.
Not “any male female interaction”. There have actually been comments here about acceptable actions that don’t involve consent (taking someone’s hand) which were said to be perfectly ok.
The “creepy” part isn’t shaming language (and given the way the MRAs use the term, “shaming language” is, for them, a form of shaming language. It’s also a derailing tool, because the subject changes to how things were said, not what was said, but I digress: though it’s things like this which lead some people to think you are, at the very least, an MRA sympathiser). The “creepy” part is that it often feels as though the guys who ask questions like that are asking so they can know just how much they can get away with before the target of their, “affections” can call them on it.
And the answer to that is, only as far as the object of one’s attentions is willing to put up with. Everyone gets to set their own boundaries, and those boundaries are not set in stone. Just because it was ok last time doesn’t mean it’s going to be ok every time thereafter.
Men, here we come — you really need to learn to read. I don’t say that Harlan claims to know if DSK is guilty. HINT: that sentence of mine comes immediately after I quote him saying that we don’t know if DSK is guilty.
And if he’s not saying, maybe we shouldn’t arrest this big important man whose words affect the market on the word of a lowly maid, then what exactly is the point of his post?
Bee: Thanks for your most recent comment, and your earlier forceful response to evil. I felt that comment of his was much worse than his typical comments, and came pretty close to deserving to be deleted. Maybe I need to move the line.
Ion, as far as I know only a very small (to the point of maybe one well known feminist) group of radical to the extreme feminists have considered sex between men and women to be rape.
And I know you know that so you should not have said it.
Still think Ion was asking an honest question, Nobby?
Still, it’s good that everybody gave detailed answers. Educating the lurkers is a good thing in its own right.
The “creepy” part isn’t shaming language (and given the way the MRAs use the term, “shaming language” is, for them, a form of shaming language. It’s also a derailing tool, because the subject changes to how things were said, not what was said, but I digress: though it’s things like this which lead some people to think you are, at the very least, an MRA sympathiser).
Sorry but at this point you remind me of a lawyer who twists words and meanings and nitpicks technicalities to make it sound like his client is always right and the opposition is always wrong. So ‘creepy’ isn’t shaming language, but pointing it out is? That makes about as much sense as “I wasn’t attacking you when I punched you in the face, but your face hitting my fist caused me a personal injury and thus you are the aggressor!”
The “creepy” part is that it often feels as though the guys who ask questions like that are asking so they can know just how much they can get away with before the target of their, “affections” can call them on it.
Ah yes, the “you’re creepy because of how your question made me feeeel” accusation. See Feminist Shaming Tactics, Code Orange and Code Black.
Has none of these media types or the bloggers using them as sources ever worked for a large company?
The arrest of any board level executive has Zero affect on the day to day running of any corporation. It may affect the stock, but that’s entirely a PR / confidence game anyway.
If my CEO got hauled away in cuffs, nobody would lose any sleep unless it was to plan on how to hide evidence or plotting on how to take advantage of the situation to advance.
MRA’s are just power worshipers. (Which explains their constant defense of rape)
@Seraph That’ll teach me to be optimistic.
Good job, Nobby. Keep licking those boots and maybe one day you’ll get to join the Ya-Ya Sisterhood.
Ion, adding extra vowels to words (“feeeel”) is not a logical argument. It’s ridicule, and pretty half-assed at that. So “creepy” is shaming, but implying that your opponents are childish whiners isn’t?
Though I actually agree with those here who say that many MRA/PUA discussions of consent ARE creepy, because they do seem to be about figuring out how much they can get away with, and not with figuring out what the woman actually wants. Sort of like Gunwitch, the PUA guru whose slogan is “make the ho say no” — that is, to keep pushing and pushing and pushing until the woman basically has to fight you off. (You might recall that when one of these women (allegedly) said no to his (alleged) gropings by (allegedly) pulling a knife, that he went and (allegedly) got a gun and (allegedly) shot her in the face.
Ion, if one believes that feminists have defined pretty much any male-female interaction as rape, then a woman who has been raped can be ignored, because most women interact with many men in a day, thus one woman pointing out her rape is silly, as almost every woman has been raped (interacted with a man) dozens, if not hundreds of times a day. Luckily this disconnect from the reality of feminist thought on rape can be solved easily. You have asked some feminists about rape and have received answers. I will add my answer in the hopes that this along with the other data points gained from the feminists on this board can lead to a swift correction of your misinterpretation of the feminist understanding of rape. Rape is non-consensual sex. If you need further clarification on this it can be provided.
Ion, don’t you think you can do better than unenthusiastic non-consent? Don’t you think you could find partners who you trust and with whom you communicate well, so that neither in the moment nor afterwards would your partners feel violated or hurt?
It takes more work to make sure both parties are totally into sex and totally enjoying it, but I assure you, it’s well worth it.
You’re selling yourself short. Or so it seems to me.
Oh and Ion, that last bit of yours about licking boots, a very clever and substantive argument there.
Nice to know, nice to know. I try to be nice, even be defensive off Ion’s intentions, and i get not only told that I think that all male-female interactions are rape, but that I’m licking boots. Ah, well. At least I tried.
It’s thanks to feminists looking to define pretty much any male-female interaction as rape.
That’s a goddamn dirty low-down lie. The people who spread it hate feminists, so they spread lies about them. And they should feel ashamed for lying.
I think it’s pretty natural, then to ask “just how do I act around a woman so it’s not construed as rape?” and shaming those who ask the question isn’t the most constructive answer. Just saying.
No, you’re not “just saying,” you’re spreading lies.
And no, it’s not natural to constantly be wondering how to avoid being accused of rape, unless you’re a.) dumber than a box of rocks and have been listening to anti-feminists or b.) a would-be rapist trying to figure out how to rape and get away with it.
Since most people are not actually that stupid, “creepy” is a useful stand-in for “would-be rapist trying to figure out how to get away with rape.”
Ion: “Good job, Nobby. Keep licking those boots and maybe one day you’ll get to join the Ya-Ya Sisterhood.”
Did you say something about “shaming language”, Ion?
You know, I just had to check that link Ion posted. And I’m going to pull a, lets see here, ‘Code Black’. Yup, it’s misogynist. Why? let’s see here… “Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.”
Yup, that’s right, only women and ‘gynocentrists’ (manginas, anyone?) use shaming tactics. That’s why Ion’s free and clear, because only women and manginas can use them.
That catalog of shaming tactics is a load of crap. It’s not a logical fallacy to show fear when someone expresses extreme misogyny. That’s a normal response to someone making an angry, irrational rant against half the population. If I encounter a militia group member, I respond with fear because those people are dangerous extremists. If you call that “shaming” then so be it.
Some of the shaming tactics are ad hominem attacks, but a lot of them are valid points, such as the charge of being an extremist, the charge of overgeneralizing, and the charge of being scary. Many MRA’s are too extreme, they are scary, and they are misogynists that overgeneralize about women. Just because you label a good argument as a “shaming tactic” and describe it with a color, does not mean you have actually given a real rebuttal at all.