A sex offender in Washington state who has spent most of his life behind bars, convicted of an assortment of different crimes ranging from check kiting to child molestation, is close to his release date. Not surprisingly, given his long history of preying on young girls, prosecutors are pushing for him to be sent instead to a facility for sexual predators, as a recent story on SeattlePI.com notes.
A state psychologist has described Donald āTheoā Holmes as a remorseless psychopath and a pathological liar who has managed to rack up an impressive array of crimes, many involving underage girls, during his stints outside of prison. Ā As the psychologist observed:
Ā āHe uses women and children to feed his sexual desires, and he uses other members of society to supply him with money, clothes, and cars that make him look important and fuel the grandiosity which is an ingrained part of his personality. ā¦
āHe admits to multiple sexual conquests and is proud of the fact that he has 22 children and that he has had mothers and daughters ā¦ pregnant at the same time with his child.ā
Holmes, for his part, simply describes himself as a āwomanizer.ā Apparently 12-year-old girls count as āwomenā in his world.
Over on The Spearhead, W.F. Price uses this case as an example of what is wrong with, you guessed it, women.
Fathering 22 children is not easy even without spending so much time incarcerated, so one can only assume that his criminality had absolutely no ill effect on his success with women. In fact, it may have enhanced his love life.
Here again, we see that being a good man has nothing to do with oneās success with women, and often is an impediment. One of the big lies of feminism is that women will shower affection on well-behaved men, and have no desire for the low-life thugs of society. Sadly, this is not the case.
Perhaps the most important message we can get out there to young men is that there is little connection between what turns women on and what is objectively good for society.
I don’t know any feminists who think that women only go for “good” guys; indeed, the feminists I know spend a lot of time discussing (and trying to help) women who are or were involved with not-so-good-guys. Evidently the imaginary feminists Price hangs out with, though, are reincarnations of Victorians who assume all women are perfect little angels.
Price is bad enough. Do we have to look at the comments too? Yes, yes we do. Let’s start with the very first one, from Opus, who asked:
but is he really so bad [?]ā¦ there is nothing to suggest that the minors were anything other than enthusiatic. Whatever views one may have as to the age of consent, the girls were not infants or children but adolescents.
Yep, in Opus’ mind, sex with 12- and 14-year-olds is no problem, so long as we assume (based on nothing) that they were āenthusiasticā about it. Last I checked, this comment had Ā 16 upvotes and only 3 downvotes, so apparently heās not the only one willing to blame underage girls for being raped. Sorry, having “enthusiastic” sex with a career criminal many decades older than them.
Meanwhile, Anonymous Reader (in another heavily upvoted comment) takes aim at:
the state of Washington. Thereās no way this guy could have spawned 22 children if he had to support them on his own. How many are on AFDC, WIC or other welfare programs, paid for by ordinary, working Beta men? Yes, this is a result of liberalism but it also is a result of feminism.
AFDC and WIC are, of course, intended to make sure that the children of poor women donāt, you know, starve to death.Ā Now, Iām pretty sure Holmes wouldnāt have given a shit if his kids all starved. But apparently neither would Anonymous and his numerous upvoters. Why exactly should the children ā some of whom may well be the result of the rape of underage girls — have to pay the price for Holmesā despicable actions?
Yes, you can blame liberalism and feminism for the fact that these children are being fed. Thatās not a bad thing. The actions of Holmes werenāt the actions of a liberal or a feminist; they were the actions of a seemingly psychopathic Ā sexual predator who assumed, like many traditionalist men, that women and girls are put on this earth for men to use as they see fit.
NOTE: I didn’t set out today to write yet another post about The Spearhead. But I read Price’s post and sort of had to say something. My next post will have nothing to do with The Spearhead. I promise.
EDITED TO ADD:Ā Picture credit: Zampieri, “God reprimanding Adam and Eve,” detail;Ā photo G. Piolle.
Titfortat, werenāt you gonna take your intellectually dishonest self and leave? Or was that only on the thread with the failed Robin Williams joke?(Bee)
Nope and yep.
Amnesia – Ok, I was probably unfair too, you didn’t say rape was “required”. But I do happen to know a fair amount of men who’ve had more than the average number of partners (I even slept with a few of them) and I don’t get the impression they did it by being manipulative… or if they did it was really subtle and I didn’t notice, which I kinda think makes it OK!
Plymouth: She didn’t even say rape was, “common”, just that a specific subset of men is more likely to engage in it that others.
titfortat: Is just observational the new, “I was just joking,”?
Because it sure looks that way. You keep trying for pithy one-liners (like the one about teaching your kids my debating style) as if they were effective put-downs.
You need a new format, because this one is; pretty much, only working for you. That makes it sort of like wanking in public.
Pecunium, maybe you’re taking this whole thing a tad too seriously…
Ion
Shhhh…..
I sometimes wish I could be an MRA, I’d never have to bring a fact to a discussion. Just make a series of non-sequesters, ad hominem attacks, scottsmen, not-my-nigels and lack of any personal awareness and I could WIN at internet arguing, just be posting last in a thread.
For instance claiming that women want “narcissism, thrill-seeking and deceitfulness” never mind the fact that a person who is narcissism, thrill-seeking and deceitfulness is, in fact narcissistic, thrill-seeking and deceitful. Leading them to lie, cheat and steal to achieve their goals.
Which, strangely enough, meshes perfectly with the fact that women will frequently dump someone who is narcissistic, thrill-seeking and deceitful.
Honestly, the lack of critical thinking skills makes me wonder how MRA’s manage to not suffocate themselves in their sleep.
@Ion actually, i think quite a few people here like Pecunium, myself included, so the random attack isn’t funny or accurate.
Nobby: actually, it’s a form of Shaming Language. It was tolerably clever. If I cared much for his opinion (hard to do after reading his comments on the Shieldmaidens post it might have given me pause.
The cute thing about it was the “stopped beating your wife” aspect of it. If I respond to him, he can say, “see, you are”. If I don’t he can say, “see, you admit it.”
titfortat could learn some style from him, but it’s not a good source for substance.
Actually I just wanted to link to Flame Warriors again, I love that site. But hey, sorry for the interruption. I’ll let you get back to the important business of mocking MRAs now…
I used to play in a band where the lead singer slept with someone every time we played. After we’d finish playing he’d go from table to table asking women if they’d like to go home with him, when he was shot down he’d counter with a “you’re ugly anyways, fuck you”.
Eventually someone would say yes. Was he an alpha, definitely NOT (in fact we all saw him as some sort of a joke) . He just played the numbers game. Ask a hundred women and one of them would say yes.
This was years ago, today he’s happily married to a women that would have shot him down. Why in heavens name the amount of women you have slept with makes you an alpha is beyond me, in fact his wife came very close to not pursuing their relationship after she learned about his past.
I’ve slept with six women in my life, all of which I’d consider to be friends today, never had the desire to have sex with someone I didn’t like. Myself and our fellow band mates considered him to be a loser not a winner back in the day.
@Pecunium Well, i realized it was shaming because it’s got at least a passing reference to the old ‘humorless feminist’ trope, though I admit I’m not well versed enough in these quarters to know about that kind of tactic well (yet).
Finally just ordered the long sleeved tee-shirt of the little stick warrior hunting the mammoth. š
more cracked goodness
Bottom line? Sock puppets are adorable.
Pecunium
Actually Im learning a lot from all of you. Both good and bad.
Myself and our fellow band mates considered him to be a loser not a winner back in the day.(Kave)
But you continued to play in the band with the loser as the lead???
Why must W.F. Price obsess over what turns women on anyway? He doesn’t trust women and never wants to be romantic with another women after his divorce. It’s none of his business if some women want nice guys, bad boys, other women, or nobody at all. He claimed that Kathryn Joyce is attracted to him and other MRA’s because she asked to interview him for a Salon article on the MRM.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/06/going-feministic/
Why would he ever jump to such a bizarre conclusion to a reasonable request from a writer to do an interview? I think it speaks volumes about what’s going on in Price’s mind that he thinks everything can be traced back to women’s sexuality. Dear MGTOW, please go your own way, leave women alone, and stop trying to figure out what women want, because you’re wrong 99% of the time.
The situation of Donald Holmes proves nothing about the nature of women, of men, or of people in general. It only reflects upon the character of Holmes himself and the adult women who chose to be involved with him.
Finally, underage girls can not give any kind of consent to sex, even if they act enthusiastic about the idea. When I was 12, I thought the Loch Ness monster was real, that crop circles were made by aliens, and that Noah’s Ark was a literal historical event. Thankfully no adults took advantage of my naivety at that time.
Wait, the Loch Ness Monster is not real? My life has no meaning! *runs away*
Seriously though that is a very bizarre reaction to an interview request. Who does he think he is? Kevin Smith?
Finally, underage girls can not give any kind of consent to sex, even if they act enthusiastic about the idea. (Kendra)
I found out an interesting tid bit here in Canada. The age of consent had been 14 since 1892. The irony is that it was the conservative government that had it changed to 16 in 2008. I wonder how many feminists belong to that party? There is a “close in age exception” though, that way boyfriends dont get labelled pedophiles. So long as they are not more than 5yrs older.
I just freed a bunch of comments from first-time-commenters from moderation, So scroll up and enjoy!
Nobby: It takes a certain dedication/thick skin to do it for long. I have a little of both. It helps that I did the debate circuit in college, and I studied philosophy, and had really good instructors in literary analysis and argument (just in case you wondered, Socrates was a jerk, and used a lot of fallacious argument. On the flip side, reading him and seeing how it works, priceless).
I also spent 16 years as an interrogator, and no small part of that as an instructor of interrogation. It’s part of why I’m both dogged, and relatively immune to insult. I’ve heard it all, some of it from people who wanted to kill me in earnest, some of it from people being paid to push my buttons as hard as they could be pushed.
Does it make me “tireless” sometimes, but it also serves to show how people like Ion/titfortat use the tricks of innuendo, and the sly dig, passive aggressive comment, “joke” etc. to try and undermine commenters they disagree with (by making it emotionally difficult to engage; that’s where the one-liner is really effective. It usually has a high return on investment. Stick answers, such as, “brilliant” make it even easier). Ion’s defense of, “I didn’t really mean it, it just gave me a chance to link to flamewarriors is typical.
He could have made the link at any time. He could have made it a neutral link (relative to anyone here) by pointing to it in relation to the OP (as I did with the link I made to narcissistic men. I didn’t mean it to be referential to anyone here, so I didn’t make in response to anyone here). But he didn’t. He called me out by name, and tried to make a topical comment (I assume because I am prolific, and dogged).
That sort of thing is easier, and safer, than attacking an opponent directly. Takes less time, and is rarely something which can be the subject of a detailed takedown, so the effort required is low, and the risk of being embarrased (or abused) is a lot lower.
It’s safer than trying for detailed humor (e.g. the “Andrea Dworkin leaves the bar” indcident from the above referenced thread), and, usually, leaves the, “I was making a joke, don’t you have a sense of humor. Gee, you need to chill/get out and get a life” defenses available if called.
So I’m a fast thinker/typist. I have a pension, and a part time job. I’m in an LDR, pending a cross country move. It means I spent a fair bit of time with chat open, which means, as I garden, bake bread (loaf about to go in the oven), clean the cat box, work on the motorcycles, read on the history of fencing, pay attention to the flooding on the Mississippi, talk to my father, edit photographs, and curse the light because it’s cloudy and I won’t be able to head to the bay and shoot some birds today, I can take a few minutes and keep up with the discussion on a few web sites, or post in my blog, etc.
It’s not a bad life.
And I see no offers to bring us bread Pecunium! Therefore you lose teh Internets today. Time for lunch.
Pecunium
You never asked me what my brilliant reference was about. Kind of like when I did the same in regards to the men tend to cause war thingie. If you had asked I would have said it was because I see that you are. Why do you think I bowed out last night, I realized you were too good to debate with. That doesnt mean I believe you to be right, I just know when Im beat. Your last entry just proved it even more.
Catherine: Yes, you are able to make your own decisions. No, that doesn’t mean someone who has three times the experience you do isn’t going to be able to take advantage of the relative gaps in understanding.
And, as you say, emotioal development is something which has a progression. I appreciate that you probably feel the world is being unfair in making some things you think you should be able to do out of legal limits. Well, that’s the way it is. At some level that’s the way it has to be. Why? Because without bright lines, you get folks like NAMBLA having their way with children.
If you really want to get into a discussion about development, we can. It’s not likely to go the way you think it will. In no small part because some of us have spent twice your life doing just that sort of thing. It gives us an edge in both understanding what is actually being said (see, perhaps, the comments in the Braiding Hair Study post).
Alister: Yes, a psychopath will get what they want. It’s part of what makes them a psychopath. They don’t care what other people want, it’s all about them.
Tit for Tat
If you had any sense of well anything that would not be a question that would be asked. We all have to work with people we would not decide to be with in normal circumstances, kind of like family. He was a really good singer, did the job well and that’s all we asked of him.
Back in the day his boorish behavior lead me and my fellow band mates to be considered frankly cool. Although I didn’t decide to “get laid” because of it, it did have it’s perks. The rest of us became friends with the bartenders and wait staff, while he was off doing his rather pathetic pick-up artist routine.
“Age of Consent” is a tricky issue. In real terms it has no “bright line”, but is a fuzzy thing. Somewhere between 16-20(ish) people learn enough to be able to give informed consent for sex.
I’d argue that whom they share that with is important to the concept of “informed”. Was I able to “consent” when I had sex for the first time? I thought so. I still think so.
Have I always made good choices? No. Have I always given informed consent? I don’t know. I have had sex I didn’t really want to have. Have I done it since I was 20? No.
But if we don’t have a legal line, then there will be people who take advantage of those who really aren’t ready to consent. In the US it’s not uniform. Television gives that impression, but it’s not. I do think that by 18 most people are 1: Able to consent. 2: Adult enough in other ways to, generally, be able to know when they want to do something like that. 3: Strikes a happy medium between, “yes, they most definitely can” and, “no the certainly cannot.”