MRAs and MGTOWers are, as you might have guessed, some pretty acronym-happy people. And one of their favorite acronyms — besides those two – is NAWALT, which stands for “Not All Women Are Like That.” This is a phrase often uttered by people who are not misogynist assholes in response to things said about women by people who are misogynist assholes. Apparently many MRAs and MGTOWers hear this so often that they’ve turned it into a running gag, the “joke” being that in their minds all women really ARE like that.
Now W.F. Price of The Spearhead has caused a tempest in the teapot that is the manosphere by admitting that, in fact, not all women are like that:
We all know that there are good women out there, including some who comment here, in our families, at work and in neighborhoods all over the land, so why shouldn’t we listen to women who tell us this is the case?
Now, Price has not suddenly become a feminist or anything. Indeed he went on to argue that even if not all women are horrible monsters,
a lot of them are, and we have no assurance that the nice girl who is smiling and saying she loves you won’t at some point destroy your life. …
If somebody handed you a revolver with three loaded chambers and three empty ones and said, “go ahead and aim this at your head and pull the trigger — not all the chambers are loaded,” would you go along with the suggestion? Of course not. It would be sheer folly.
And, oh, it goes on. Blah blah blah, men, don’t get married. Blah blah blah, and you good ladies out there better give up some of your rights – sorry, advantages — because the bad ladies abuse them and pretty soon no man will want to marry any of you:
[T]hose women who really “aren’t like that”… are less likely to find a man willing to marry them, and more likely to be used and abandoned at the first hint of commitment. Society at large is increasingly skeptical about the virtues of women, and the word is bubbling up from the grass roots that women are a risky proposition. …
Until the laws are reformed and some balance is restored to relationships, men who care at all about their lives will have no choice but to regard any woman he becomes involved with as a loaded gun pointed straight at him.
So, yeah, this is the same old W.F. Price we know and don’t love.
On The Spearhead itself, the dissenters were at least generally polite. “Nah, sorry Mr Price,” wrote oddsock. “Your well written post cuts no ice with me. All women are like that.” Herbal Essence also challenged Price’s math:
The argument needs to be rejected because nearly all women are enabling the behavior of the worst of them. And nearly all women stand, arms akimbo, as a bloc to preserve female superiority. ..
[I]t’s time that men take off their rose-colored glasses and realize that nearly all women are waging a war against us. For god sakes, our own mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters support the female hive mind over their own flesh and blood. (us.)
Over on MGTOWforums.com, the judgment was a little harsher. The commenter calling himself fairi5fair reacted as though Price had lopped off his own dick and announced his engagement to the ghost of Andrea Dworkin.
W. F. Price is just a daisy-picking mangina with a chip on his shoulder imo. Even the woman MRA I knew was probably just using it as a slick way to trap a nesting male.
Bottom line: if words are coming out of a woman’s mouth, she’s a lying cunt. Mr. Price probably wants to believe in some romantic fairytale because he just got divorced and wants pussy again, and doesn’t want to face the reality of his options.
Yes, Mr. Price, you’re going to get your sorry ass handed to you again if you keep thinking with your dick and your heart. Use the brain, moron. Next!
Whenever I run across something this idiotic, I have to remind myself that Not All MGTOWers Are That Astoundingly Stupid. NAMGTOWATAS, for short.
Dangerous jobs pay significantly higher than jobs available to women of comparable educational levels. So, the woman working in the service industry makes $7.50, and the man working construction makes $16. But, most low level service jobs will hire men, or have a comparable position for men that pays more (maids vs janitors, anyone?). Men are not being disadvantaged here, they have the option of chosing the higher pay/greater risk job or the lower pay/lower risk job, women do not. It is also worth noting that life expectancy discrepancies occur across classes and cultures, whereas if they were truly only about dangerous jobs, one would expect them to occur primarily amoung poorer individuals (rich men as a class do not do physical labor jobs), but this is not actually the case, poorer people do not consistently have a higher life expectancy gap across sexes(women in lower income ranges experience more pregnancy and birth related injuries as well). It is theorized that higher testosterone increases the risk of hypertension and that this accounts for the consistent slight discrepancies (~2-3 years) found even in the upperclass of developed nations.
@Kendra
I think the movie ‘Daddy Daycare’ was accurate in that probably at first, men would be less competent at childcare. Society doesn’t generally encourage men to go into babysitting or help out in nurseries or take on other kinds of ‘nurturing’ responsibilities. They would be at a disadvantage merely from lack of experience.
But, only at first.
Amnesia
Some jobs are sexist against men regardless of experience. I am a Massage Therapist and I see it on a daily basis.
Titfortat: Not to spend an inordinate amount of effort analyzing something that I’m not upset about, but I want to point out that posting a sexist “joke” that had whiskers when our grandparents were young, preemptively “apologizing” for it, and then accusing someone who wants to criticize the point of view contained therein of being humorless and needing a “chill pill” seems both pointless and disingenuous.
All that aside, I am really curious about your experiences as a massage therapist who finds his job to be sexist against men. Do you mind sharing some specifics? What aspects are sexist? Is it hard to find a job as a male massage therapist? Difficult to be admitted for training? Do your fellow massage therapists make you feel uncomfortable or harass you? Does your boss discriminate against you by giving your female coworkers more raises, more overtime, etc.? I really am curious. I hear about discrimination in female-dominated jobs, but from outside the field, I can’t tell.
@Anit, there are many groups whose activism is geared toward a specific population. For instance, There are organizations that only address the issue of homeless children. There are homeless adults but I doubt this group has their website derailed with questions of, “What about the homeless adults?”. There are other groups that address that particular issue. Another example, I’ve read about a group that fund raises specifically for money to help poor children born with cleft palate get sugery, as far as I know that is all they do. Their are certianly others born with conditions that can’t afford sugery and this group is not questioned on why they don’t fund raise for them. Why the difference with feminists?
“Because men aren’t, “expected” to make them either. Not in a way which demands it. Yes, the social ideal is that “men” will rush into burning buildings, dive into lakes, etc., but when a man doesn’t, no one shuns him. The law doesn’t punish”
A man that is not a firefighter doesn’t run into a burning building to save people, he is not shunned. A women decides not to carry a pregnancy to term, she has to keep it a secret. If a man dies in war, he is honered publicly. If a woman dies in childbirth, not so. Where is the monument to the women who gave their lives giving birth in washington or anywhere else for that matter? I know a lady that walks with a limp because her hip was cracked giving birth. I do not recall her reciving any public commendation for her sacrifice for our country by providing it with a citizen. Oh, I know, for women it’s just what we’re supposed to do but when men sacrifice they deserve extra reconition for their efforts. My mistake.
“Something else, women are not blanketly giving this protection. They have to be the right kind of woman in danger. No one gives a damn about the prostitute that is raped. Women have to qualify for this protection.”
“Another fallacy. Childbirth is in no way comparable. While it obviously has risks, that doesn’t remotely compare it to giving up your life for another (stranger) simply because of their genitalia and yours. You couldn’t be more mistaken to compare the two. Talk about loss of perspective. On top of this, it is a choice. Nobody is forced to get pregnant nor should they be in the society we all want to live in. Nonetheless, many people choose to do so and many of them are very happy with that choice.”
wow, so the way men risk their lives is never a choice. Men enlist in the military are happy with their choice so maybe we should provide them room, board and food and no other pay or comendations besides that, right?
Bee
In my industry clinics are more prone to hire female therapists because clients are more prone to want a female therapist over a male therapist. The reasons for this range from homophobia to sexist ideas that female therapists would be more nurturing than their male counterparts. There are several other subtle biases in regards to body image also.
As far as my attempt at humour I still think a certain someone needs to take a chill pill.
And I think you need a humor transplant. Your “joke” was lame, not even remotely funny, and obviously calculated to try to get a rise out of people who don’t find “sexist humor” funny.
snowy
You need a chill pill too.
oops, sorry for the ableist language use (lame) there I wasn’t thinking.
I need to take a chill pill? And the prize for creative comeback goes to… not you!
T4T, I actually thought Pam’s reply was funnier than your original ‘joke’. Maybe it is you who needs to get a better sense of humor.
Titfortat, you’re so passive-aggressive. It’s not even cute.
Darksidecat – No, on the job danger is definitely not the only reason for men’s shorter lifespans and if you look at the HuffPo article I linked to you’ll see several others listed. Risk-taking is also one, with things such as failure to see doctors and driving faster being examples on which we have good statistical evidence. Men die from those things more than women do. I do think though that those things can be analyzed in terms of societal expectations of masculinity that are disadvantaging men. Men are expected to be tough, fend for themselves, and show how strong and daring they are. This isn’t something where women have “privilege” over men but it is an example of a kind of sexism that hurts men. It seems like the kind of thing both feminists and MRAs should be on board with fighting.
Thanks for talking more about your field, Titfortat. I find it interesting, though obviously wrong, that that bias exists. It’s curious to me, too; off the top of my head, I would suspect that clients’ perceptions of male massage therapists as being stronger, better able to manipulate muscles, etc., would balance any homophobia and stereotypes about women being nurturers. But obviously not. Thanks again for your insight. I’ve honestly never thought of massage therapist as a gendered career, so you’ve opened my eyes to that aspect.
Re. the “joke,” I guess I’ll add that I try to make a point of keeping jokes to myself when I feel they need to be followed by an apology.
Titfortat, you’re so passive-aggressive.(Sally)
Maybe. And you are predictable.
I find it interesting, though obviously wrong, that that bias exists.(Bee)
And that is obvious because of your 20yrs in the field?
No, T4T, the problem here is that YOU are predictable. If you weren’t constantly using passive-aggressive tactics to attack people while trying to still pretend that you’re above it all, I would never have even noticed how passive-aggressive you are. As it is though, we know that you love to pretend to draw people into a discussion, pretend to listen to what they say in response to your question, then ignore what they had to say and ask the exact same questions again, as if nothing had happened. Then when your interlocutor gets angry and frustrated with your little game, you act all shocked, what did you ever do? You’re so polite. You would never swear or reveal anger like those other nasty people. Oh no, T4T is a perfect gentleman, if you just disregard the fact that he lies by omission, pretending to want to engage in honest dialogue. No no, it’s the other people who are rude for being disgusted by your inability to be honest.
It’s pathetic.
I find it interesting that a gender bias exists in the massage therapy field.
I also find such a bias to be wrong. That this bias exists is wrong and sad, and I wish it did not exist.
Okay?
Bee
Ok, I misunderstood you. Sorry. 🙂
Sally
I dont pretend, if I needed to do that you wouldnt have access to my profile. I dont need to swear or call you all kinds of names because, for the most part, you dont inspire those kinds of feelings in me. You can keep trying for some honest discussion if you would like. My name is John are you really Sally?
I think I have met one guy named John that was not a jerk. And you are not him Tit.
You knew the joke would offend but you said it anyway-which means you were looking to offend. That is jerkish.
Poster
Really? Do you not think the more offensive part was this………
Also, it tends to be men who cause war not women. (Poster)
Because obviously if the Patriarchy is a System of belief then the women who partake in it are not equally responsible for war, right?
I know, I know, I am not seeing this correctly.
anit, I want to get back to a point that seems to have largely been forgotten here — Pecunium brought it up again recently, and it sort of got ignored again — and that is the issue of me “cherry-picking” quotes from “outliers” and people who are “venting.”
As I pointed out when I first addressed this issue a couple of hundred comments ago, the OP here is an article written by the guy running one of the most popular online hangouts for MRAs/MGTOWs. He’s hardly an “outlier,” and, far from “venting,” generally writes in a calm and deliberate voice.
The comments from people thinking he was being too nice to women weren’t from outliers either; one of the comments (last I checked) had more than 100 upvotes from readers there,the other had 80. This is pretty clear proof that what they said was considered reasonable by the vast majority of comment readers there. The upvotes are pretty clear empirical evidence that these guys aren’t “outliers,” but that what they said is supported by the overwhelming majority of people reading it who cared enough to click an up or down arrow.
The thing is, I go out of my way to AVOID quoting outliers. When looking at the Spearhead, I tend to focus on, and quote, only those comments that are heavily upvoted or downvoted, and to ignore the rest — that is, comments that are clearly approved of or disapproved of by the majority of readers there.
In the OP here, I did post one ridiculous comment from MGTOWforums. There are no upvotes or downvotes there, so I can’t rely on that. But you’ll notice that I pointed out explicitly that this was an extreme comment, even by the extreme standards of the board. It was an outlier — and I said it was an outlier in the post.
And, again, if you know of a forum featuring what you consider more “typical” and less obnoxious posts/comments from MRAs, please point it out to me. Every MRA site/forum I’ve ever been to features a lot of misogyny. In only a few places (like reddit’s men’s rights subreddit) is this misogyny ever challenged by other posters (and even there it often isn’t).
@T4T
Well, for the longest time, women didn’t have access to positions that would grant them a say in whether countries went to war or not. Some wives of men in positions of power might have been able to influence their husbands one way or another, but ultimately, the man still made the decision whether or not to listen to her.
So, no, in a Patriarchy, women could not be held equally responsible for war. That would be like saying a person who saw someone else rob a store was equally responsible for the theft.
white feather campaign