MRAs and MGTOWers are, as you might have guessed, some pretty acronym-happy people. And one of their favorite acronyms — besides those two – is NAWALT, which stands for “Not All Women Are Like That.” This is a phrase often uttered by people who are not misogynist assholes in response to things said about women by people who are misogynist assholes. Apparently many MRAs and MGTOWers hear this so often that they’ve turned it into a running gag, the “joke” being that in their minds all women really ARE like that.
Now W.F. Price of The Spearhead has caused a tempest in the teapot that is the manosphere by admitting that, in fact, not all women are like that:
We all know that there are good women out there, including some who comment here, in our families, at work and in neighborhoods all over the land, so why shouldn’t we listen to women who tell us this is the case?
Now, Price has not suddenly become a feminist or anything. Indeed he went on to argue that even if not all women are horrible monsters,
a lot of them are, and we have no assurance that the nice girl who is smiling and saying she loves you won’t at some point destroy your life. …
If somebody handed you a revolver with three loaded chambers and three empty ones and said, “go ahead and aim this at your head and pull the trigger — not all the chambers are loaded,” would you go along with the suggestion? Of course not. It would be sheer folly.
And, oh, it goes on. Blah blah blah, men, don’t get married. Blah blah blah, and you good ladies out there better give up some of your rights – sorry, advantages — because the bad ladies abuse them and pretty soon no man will want to marry any of you:
[T]hose women who really “aren’t like that”… are less likely to find a man willing to marry them, and more likely to be used and abandoned at the first hint of commitment. Society at large is increasingly skeptical about the virtues of women, and the word is bubbling up from the grass roots that women are a risky proposition. …
Until the laws are reformed and some balance is restored to relationships, men who care at all about their lives will have no choice but to regard any woman he becomes involved with as a loaded gun pointed straight at him.
So, yeah, this is the same old W.F. Price we know and don’t love.
On The Spearhead itself, the dissenters were at least generally polite. “Nah, sorry Mr Price,” wrote oddsock. “Your well written post cuts no ice with me. All women are like that.” Herbal Essence also challenged Price’s math:
The argument needs to be rejected because nearly all women are enabling the behavior of the worst of them. And nearly all women stand, arms akimbo, as a bloc to preserve female superiority. ..
[I]t’s time that men take off their rose-colored glasses and realize that nearly all women are waging a war against us. For god sakes, our own mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters support the female hive mind over their own flesh and blood. (us.)
Over on MGTOWforums.com, the judgment was a little harsher. The commenter calling himself fairi5fair reacted as though Price had lopped off his own dick and announced his engagement to the ghost of Andrea Dworkin.
W. F. Price is just a daisy-picking mangina with a chip on his shoulder imo. Even the woman MRA I knew was probably just using it as a slick way to trap a nesting male.
Bottom line: if words are coming out of a woman’s mouth, she’s a lying cunt. Mr. Price probably wants to believe in some romantic fairytale because he just got divorced and wants pussy again, and doesn’t want to face the reality of his options.
Yes, Mr. Price, you’re going to get your sorry ass handed to you again if you keep thinking with your dick and your heart. Use the brain, moron. Next!
Whenever I run across something this idiotic, I have to remind myself that Not All MGTOWers Are That Astoundingly Stupid. NAMGTOWATAS, for short.
@ kirby
your standard is dropping rapidly.
““You are coming here with a straight face and claiming you know exactly what us feminists feel, think, and how we act.”
Where do I claim to know what feminists feel?”
Heh. I guess you don’t have a problem with saying the other two then?
”
This is a REALLY bad response. Anyone who reads that into what I wrote, can only be doing so maliciously.
“Oh snap, what a ferocious comeback, totally answering my query. I don’t know how ever I shall manage. For someone obsessed with ad hominems, well, do I need to finish?”
I just asked a question. Who is “we”? Can’t you just answer and spare me the cheap rhetoric?
“I have no interest in going to another blog for the sole purpose of acting like a dick.”
What kirby is referring to here is my suggestion to go to forums and politely address men’s issues. Calling that “acting like a dick” says more clearly what Kirby’s position on men’s issues and gender on the whole is. Kirby, you attempted character assassination with me, but ended up committing character suicide.
“note that I didn’t say “every” either”
You said:
“saying that feminist men are not actually here to empower women”
The word “every” is implied here. Denying it only makes it worse. How about showing some integrity and just conceding that I never said that and that it was a mistake? If a stupid troll like me can admit to mistakes then surely you can too, right?
@ mediumdave
“Ahahaha yes you are a sexist, anit. You reveal more of that every time you post.”
I’m sure you just made the others here proud with that one. How about showing me exactly where I’m being sexist and why? If you can’t or won’t then spare me the labeling and name calling.
@ Amnesia
“anit, by that logic, how could anyone understand the severity of FGM or MGM that hasn’t had it done to them?”
Exactly. That’s my point and that’s why we shouldn’t try to draw a line of severity and only help those who we consider above that line. Even if it means, omg, taking gender out of consideration for a change.
@anit
0_0
@everyone else
Anybody else picking up on what anit is saying? Have I committed character suicide here? 😀 If thats the case, I must be much more oblivious than usual.
back@anit
Many of your responses to questions have been further questions. When asked to provide your own experience with other blogs, you side-step and ask us to replicate your experience instead. Forgive me if I grow a little weary of your continuous assertions.
I would call going to other forums and derailing the conversation by bringing the subject to “what about men’s rights” being a dick. *shrug* Like I’ve said before, not every science topic needs to address evolution, and not every feminist topic needs to address men.
Also, this: “Yeah, you haven’t said every male feminist is a fraud” A direct quote from my last post. 😛
anit: “This is definitely not true. Why do you think they’re so hostile if they think the existing power imbalance was ok?
At a guess, he doesn’t believe they think the present power imbalance is ok.
He thinks 1: there is a power imbalance; against women.
2: He thinks the MRA Movement dislikes this power imbalance.
3: They think the present power imbalance doesn’t give them as much power as they want.
QED: He thinks MRA are not about “equality.
Logic, so simple anyone can do it.
@anit
“That’s my point and that’s why we shouldn’t try to draw a line of severity and only help those who we consider above that line. Even if it means, omg, taking gender out of consideration for a change.”
Being able to take gender out of consideration is a privilege not generally granted to women. I can’t ignore the fact that I’m a woman. I can’t ignore the old creepers that come to my work and try to hit on me. I can’t ignore the fact that society expects me to prioritize my appearance over my intelligence. I can’t ignore the possibility that if somebody decided to rape me, I’d probably be blamed for not being careful enough or accused of lying about it, maybe both. I can’t ignore the several Superman and Batman movies that have been made without wondering when we’ll get to see Wonder Woman on the big screen. I can’t ignore the guys who ask for some ‘strong men’ to help move stuff because they don’t think any women would be willing or strong enough to help. I can’t ignore that I’ll probably have to work twice as hard to be considered ‘as valuable’ as a man.
Asking me to take gender out of consideration is asking me to ignore the stuff that happens or could happen to me on a daily basis because of my gender.
Anit, I will not post on MRA sites, because I don’t like the angry rhetoric. If a woman tries to say anything, she’ll probably hear some nasty insults or something along the lines of “You women messed everything up, so we don’t want your opinions”. If MRA’s want women to listen to their concerns, then they are doing a terrible job expressing the concerns with civility and winning women to their cause. I could try posting by pretending to be a man, but I don’t think I should have to lie just to be taken seriously.
If you have specific criticisms of feminism, I would be happy to address them. So far, though, I have no idea what to say to you because I don’t even know what your argument is. Do you have an opinion about this post on W.F. Price? Do you want to give a counterargument to it? That would be specific enough for me to respond to.
Anit thinks that feminists are big meanies. Anit wants us to be nicer to MRA’s because, uh, unicorns. Anit wants us to ignore his obvious bias toward the male of the species, which is painfully evident from all of his “what about the menz” protestation. Anit wants to leave the gender question out of genital mutilation (how is that even possible?). Anit is full of shit, which he thinks smells glorious.
anit:
First off, don’t worry about how much stuff gets posted between replies–we’re all used to it and we understand. Nobody’s going to expect you to have a reply to the thing that got posted 30 seconds before your post.
Responses like this cast doubt on whether you’re actually trying to communicate. Yes, it’s frustrating when people respond to something you didn’t say, but the first responsibility to making sure you’re understood falls on you. If people consistently misrepresent you, you probably aren’t communicating clearly.
Anyway if you’re interested in communicating, then when someone misrepresents you, the thing to do is to clearly correct them. Right way:
Wrong way:
Oh no kirby, why????? Why did you do it???? Why did you commit character suicide!!!!!!!!!! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!
As a veteran of a few forums over the years, and new to this site, excited at the depth of conversation compared to the HB and MGTOW echo chambers, I must note a rapid deterioration in the discourse into ad hominems and responding to, and responding with, emotional tricks and triggers. It becomes increasingly tiring when a hand full of people degenerate into a pissing contest/intellectual masturbation in public, and allow threads to be hi-jacked and manipulated by the trolls. There are serious issues with the misogynist movement, not the least of which is escalating rhetoric that will lead to violence. To let the trolls and personal reactions get the best of the best of the minds here is a victory for misogyny.
These are animals to be studied in their habitats. If you jump into their cages or habitats and get chewed upon, you are useless to the greater effort to diffuse the hate and turn this ship of hate around. Taking the bait and providing ammo to perpetuate the war on sanity plays into the game. Not to say we need to be gentle with these human animals, but beware of the traps, bait, and weaknessess they exploit.
This article should be taken as proof that W.F. Price is a reasonable man, a philosopher, and should be taken far more seriously than the femiassfucks take him.
Hrm, hey Major, not to be rude or anything… But do you have any more comments on the OP you’d like to share? No one’s stopping you.
The way I see it, a conversation on one topic only lasts so long, especially without dissenting opinions. But David can’t choose which dissenters read and comment on the blog. Threads get hijacked, but if somone has an opinion, nothing is stopping them from just saying it. The internet isn’t like a table discussion where only one person can speak at a time.
My two cents.
Major, how about you handle anit from here on out, then?
Wow Major, way to fuel the concern troll/tone debate. Classic derailing attempt.
And irrelevant second paragraph to ice the cake. It completely misses the point of the nature of the responses to anit (i.e. the takedown of his logical failings) and so provides just the sort of tool needed to deal with derailing concern trolls.
/feeding Major
*note to david, I feel the need to specifically respond to the FGM/MGM debate because I think that it is something anit could potentially understand the difference. If you feel the derail to be too severe feel free to delete.*
anit, FGM and MGM are generally handled as different problems for a couple of reasons
1. because FGM is commonly a problem in African countries non-Africans must tread extremely carefully in the way that we propose the problem to be dealt with lest we come across as trying to yet again spread colonialism to africa. Male circumcision on the other hand is not nearly as common outside of the united states, so the ways in which you can even begin to tackle the problems is completely different
and
2. from a medical standpoint women suffer much more life threatening problems from FGM than men suffer from male circumcision. The list of problems FGM causes: increased difficulty in child birth, a lifetime of chronic urinary tract infections, high risk of infection caused by procedure, increased liklihood of STI contraction, and pain with intercourse just to name a few. The list of documented problems Male circumcision causes: body dysmorphia, lack of sensation, and low risk of infection associated with procedure. Now I’m not saying that male circumcision is okay, it’s not and it needs to be stopped, but I think that medically we can say that FGM is the worse of the two
A comment by Pecunium about “moving goalposts” got caught in moderation b/ it had a bunch of links in it; it’s up now. There are one or two other comments that were also in moderation. I think they’re all on this page of the comments, if you want to scroll up and check.
I’m always trying to figure out why I get into conversations with MRAs where they say “feminists believe XYZ” and I say “I’m a feminist, that’s not true of me” and a bunch of feminists chime in with “yeah, I don’t know any feminists who believe XYZ” and the MRA says “feminists believe XYZ.”
It confuses me.
By the way, if I ever had a son I would not circumcise him (respect for his bodily autonomy, a very feminist position) but my ex-husband took the position that it didn’t really matter if boys are circumcised because he didn’t notice anything negative based on being circumcised. Anecdata, but there you have a feminist taking a strong stance for the bodily autonomy of potential male offspring while a non-feminist man thought it “didn’t matter.”
It’s not ANY time. I find it is specific to when feminist’s are speaking on an issue they are championing and someone comes in to make it about men’s rights. Even worse when it’s saying, “What about all the false rape accusations”, in a conversation about rape. This is typical to the situation.
MRA’s include GM on their own sites, in their own activism, don’t they? When they are having those discussions, are they speaking on FGM? Somehow I doubt that. When they have any conversation, do they speak for any women’s issues? Why this expectation of feminists? Or am I mistaken and you say the same thing to them on including women’s issues in their activism?
Anyhow, since the MRA movement is in essence, at it’s core, an anti-feminism movement, I see no reason in the least that I owe them some special respect. More so given they directly disrespect feminism on a daily basis. One might as well ask me as a black women to respect the KKK. Fuck them and fuck MRA’s.
Asking me to take gender out of consideration is asking me to ignore the stuff that happens or could happen to me on a daily basis because of my gender.(Amnesia)
I feel for you. I cant ignore that society expects me to protect others(even if I cant protect myself). I cant ignore the fact that society thinks Im not really that sensitive(mom nurtures better). I cant ignore the fact that it costs me money to prove that Im a better parent than my daughters mother(can you say bias).
I TOTALLY understand how we cant escape our gender issues but Im so glad that Im one of the privledged ones, I cant imagine what it would be like if I wasnt.
titfortat, was that list really the best you could come up with?
LMFAO………….would you like a better one? Not that it would make a difference, eh? 😉
t4t manages to ignore apostrophes on a daily basis, anyway.
Anyone else notice anit showing a THASF-like need to put himself in a unique position of mastery of the conversation? There’s the incessant policing of what other people say coupled with the refusal to himself be held accountable, and then there’s that quote Snowy picked up on:
Here he dubs himself the arbiter of who cares about women’s rights and who doesn’t, similar to THASF’s self-appointed role as dialogue initiator.
katz
?
A commenter calling him or herself Men’s Rights Activist Overlord posted a comment and I let it through. (It was on topic, and I sort of like the term “femiassfuck.”)
Not sure if this “new” commenter is:
1) MRA Lieutenant, back in a not-so-clever disguise
2) An MRA inspired by MRAL who intends to honor MRAL with the name
3) A feminist parodying MRAL by posting ridiculous nonsense.
So hard to tell! Whoever it is, you’re on moderation too.
And if you’re MRAL, you are allowed to post here; I’m just moderating your comments because the last couple of comments you made were way over the line.
TitForTat, many feminists do indeed believe that those problems you cite are issues that we can and should resolve by upending our binary-gender system of expectations. So are you with us? We tend to be gender-bending genderqueers, and the female-bodied people often have hair in places where it naturally grows (I <3 my femmestache), and we're totally for emancipating men from those gendered expectations.
Hope you'll become a third-wave gender-bending feminist. We have a lot of fun and we're totally in favor of male-identified people discovering more varied ways of being than the traditional masculine role allows.
We're queering gender over here, and since you have seen how problematic traditional gender roles are, I'm confident that you'll ally yourself with us as we strive for a future of many (or no!) gender roles. Enthusiastically consenting sex free of gender constraints for all!!