douchebaggery internal debate misandry misogyny MRA MRA paradox paul elam threats violence against men/women

Internet Inactivism and the MRA Paradox

MRA in action

As I’ve pointed out before, the vast majority of Men’s Rights Activists aren’t really activists at all, if by “activists” you mean people who occasionally get off their asses and try to engage in political activity in the real world. As I put in in my piece for the Good Men Project on misogyny in the Men’s Rights movement,

Men’s rights activists aren’t much like any other activists I’ve ever run across. For one thing, for supposed activists they are almost completely inactive. Sure, they complain endlessly about things they see as terrible injustices against men. They just don’t do anything about them. While some of those who consider themselves fathers’ rights activists—a slightly different breed from your garden-variety MRAs—try to influence laws and legislatures, MRAs do little more than cultivate their resentments.

MRAs seem to be good at one thing, and one thing only: posting angry comments on websites, whether their own or on those of their many enemies – whether that’s on blogs like this one or in the comments section on various mainstream media sites they consider “misandrist.” (Actually: that’s not entirely fair – on a few occasions, MRAs have been moved to make threatening phone calls as well.) They don’t raise money for anything but their own web sites and their pet projects. They don’t organize demonstrations that involve more than a tiny handful of people.  Like, for example, this one, involving one dude dressed like Batman who climbed up onto a highway sign:

Or this one, which involved a dude dressed up as Batman and a dude dressed up as Robin, climbing up on a bridge.

If your protests typically involve fewer people than, say, the line of people waiting to use the Redbox video rental kiosk outside your local supermarket on a Friday night, I think it’s safe to say that yours is not a mass movement, at least not yet.

Am I being unfair in demanding MRAs actually, literally,get off their asses before I consider them to be activists? Perhaps.

But, as it turns out, MRAs aren’t much good at sitting-on-your-ass activism either. Case in point: For quite some time – weeks? months? — MRA elder Paul Elam has been urging readers of his blog A Voice For Men to sign a petition to disbar a District Attorney he and other MRAs have decided is corrupt. But despite his repeated pleas to his readers to sign the thing, it has not yet garnered the required 1000 signatures, even though at least a few of his readers have talked about signing it more than once. [Edited to add: it has now gotten more than 1000 signaturesd.]

Today, this particular example of internet inactivism prompted Elam to lash out at his non-signing readers. Declaring himself “tired and frustrated” and “sick of this shit,” he once again begged his readers to sign. Then he went a step further, suggesting that he might limit commenting on his site to “activists that are contributing to this site in one way or another” as a way of encouraging activism and discouraging those who are “sucking up air and doing little else.”

I don’t think further exhortation on his part – or limiting the comments there to “real” activists only – is likely to make much difference. [Edited to add: Nagging a few more people to spend two minutes signing an online petition is one thing. Actually transforming them into real activists is another.]  Elam is running up against the inherent paradox of Men’s Rights “activism” – the fact that most of those complaining the most about alleged injustices against men are not in fact interested in changing anything. Their “activism,” as it were, is little more than an excuse to wallow in their own bitterness, and to blame others for their own problems.

If MRAs really cared about domestic violence against men – as opposed to using the issue as a rhetorical weapon against feminists – they would be raising money and devoting their time to actually building shelters, like the (mostly) women who built the first shelters decades ago, and the (mostly) women who keep these shelters going today. If MRAs were really interested in stopping prison rape, instead of simply complaining about it, they’d be donating money to or working with the advocacy group Just Detention or other groups concerned about the treatment of prisoners. If they were really interested in helping those falsely accused of rape or other crimes, they’d be working with The Innocence Project or some other group fighting for the falsely accused or convicted. Or they would be starting real organizations of their own.

But that’s not, at heart, what the MRM is about. For all but a tiny handful of real activists, it’s not about changing the world. It’s about creating a space where men can kvetch and blame and cultivate their own sense of martyrdom. Actually trying to change the real world would involve , well, going out into the real world, a place where their assertions about the alleged oppression of men are seen as the nonsense they are, a place where their bitterness and hatred of women is seen as bitterness and hatred rather than the righteous anger they like to imagine that it is.

When MRAs do venture out of their self-created bubble they tend to either make fools of themselves – like Batman on the highway sign in the video above – or to reveal themselves to be the angry fanatics they are. Elam, for his part, sometimes even has trouble making his case in the relatively sympathetic environment of the Men’s Rights subreddit on Reddit, and is quickly reduced to sputtering rage when anyone disagrees with him. In the end, sputtering rage seems to be what the MRM is really all about.

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No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago


Might want to bite your tongue till the outcome, you lot ended up looking like fools and asses with your staunch public defending of another false accuser called Crystal Magnum a while back. Like Magnum, Fillers wife is a domestic and child abuser and false rape accuser and like Mike Nifong, Kellett is corrupt but unlike Nifong who went down for just one case, Kellett is being perused for at least 20 cases.

ScareCrow P-Man
10 years ago

@Bee. I did not misunderstand you one bit.

There is a D.A. whose conduct seem fishy. There is a petition online to perform an investigation into her conduct.

“you’ve reached out to 100 deluded, bitter crazypeople”

Those are your words. I did not misunderstand them at all. And, it is not 100, it is more than 1000.

People who sign such a petition are “bitter” and “crazy”.

Labeling people who sign such a petition as being “bitter” and “crazy” sure makes it sound like you are passionately opposed to it to me.

Then, you go off topic, and say this, “What’s next? Writing major news outlets and telling them they’re wrong because they wrote articles in 2003 that said Osama Bin Laden is at large?”

Then accuse ME of being the troll?

No, I am on topic. David criticized MRA’s and their activism. I point out, that he is wrong.

Instead of accepting this, you say that only 100 people signed it, and since they signed it – they are “crazy” and “bitter”, then you start talking about Bin Laden, then accuse me of being a troll.

I spent days searching on YouTube and Google, trying to find people with common interests – and pointed the petition out to them. I spread the word to encourage others to do the same (remember me mentioning the E-mail to the president of the NCFM?).

Sorry, but 1000 seems like a very valid number.

Oh, and by the way. False accusations of rape do happen – and they destroy the lives of men and women.

You should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that people who want to correct that injustice are also “bitter” and “crazy”.

It seems to me that anybody who pursues justice in your mind is simply “bitter” and “crazy”.

ScareCrow P-Man
10 years ago

@David Futrelle:

Funny, when I go to view the signatures, I cannot see all of them – only the most recent.

So, how did you come to the conclusion that some people used the same name twice?

“Spending 2 minutes to sign a petition is not the same as real activism.”

Then prey-tell Dave, tell us all what “real activism” is.

10 years ago

And once again, ScareCrow P-Man:

You said: “The false rape society at the beginning of the year had only 60 followers – now it has more than 100.”

I responded: “That’s totally awesome that you’ve reached out to 100 deluded, bitter crazypeople, though. Keep up the good work.”

Do you get it now? In very simple language:

People who follow the False Rape Society are idiots.

God, good luck to you in understanding anything in life. No wonder the world frightens you so much, with your inability to understand even very simple concepts.

No surprises here: I’m sorry, but what the hell? Please point me to where I made any firm claims about anything, took a firm stand on either Mrs. Filler’s or Kellett’s veracity or competency, or claimed to have or be affiliated with a, um, “lot.” I’m just saying that Elam and his, um, “lot” are a ridiculous, freakish group of ranty little baby-men, and he appears to be dead wrong about pretty much everything he holds dear. That’s all.

David: Wow. I guess I’m not surprised, but thank you for bringing that up. I glanced at their site briefly, and it didn’t immediately trigger any alarm bells, although being literally the ONLY non-MRA group to support Elam’s cause seemed, well, suspicious.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Eventually, people who spread hate-inspiring lies will be revealed for being just that – hate mongers.

I think for you that’s already happened, big guy.

Men, here we come
Men, here we come
10 years ago

“And real activism: organizing demonstrations”

Done. And we will do it again. Hello the movement for disbarment of Mary Kellett:

“setting up hotlines, volunteering to assist, for example, male victims of DV; raising money to build shelters for men or to support organizations that work on issues that affect men (eg, Just Detention)”

We already offer support for men, there are many online sources for men today because of our efforts, and I’ve personally helped men online and in real life. Even Reddit/MensRights has links to forums for divorced men to get help.

Of course, when the government is unwilling to fund domestic violence organizations that help men, not just women, it’s a bit difficult to help the very common male victims of violence. That’s why I’ve donated to, which is pushing for making domestic violence shelters accountable, and ensuring that they help REAL victims.

Have you donated to SAVE?

“becoming involved in local politics, organizing boycotts in a real and practical way, lobbying the government, etc etc.”

We are already doing so. And the activism will only expand. You may be in denial. I will be advocating in my state capitol soon, and there are others who will be advocating in Washington.

We are few today, and many tomorrow.

And most importantly, we are ENOUGH.

And we will not shut up.

Why? Because justice is our motto.

10 years ago

Off topic slightly but I found out where NWOslave got his original comments on porn, men and women…from “Rules of the Game” that Neil Strauss wrote…it was practically word for word and I am fairly sure that Strauss stole it from yet another person.

10 years ago

Amazing what one learns when mocking the “Game” on a date.

10 years ago

PFKAElizabeth: Do tell. Please?

10 years ago

Wow, this thread has got off to a very strange place… I’ve read through some of the documents that Bee put up, and boy the Filler trial is a mess. But Captain Bathrobe is exactly right: the defendants produced evidence that was denied, and the prosecutor’s main closing argument was to point out this lack of evidence. The decision for a new trial seems exactly right.

This is a very, very complicated and foggy case though, and based soley on evidence given to the public, you can’t really decide for sure one way or the other. The short story is that it certainly isn’t the poster case the MRM should be looking for…

It is very interesting reading the documents, though. I’m interested in law on occasion, and I don’t often get to see real cases playing out. I’m gonna keep reading this one.

ScareCrow P-Man
10 years ago

“People who follow the False Rape Society are idiots.”

Really? Are they also stinky and eat their own bougars too?

“God, good luck to you in understanding anything in life. No wonder the world frightens you so much, with your inability to understand even very simple concepts.”

I understand way more than you do. The world does not frighten me at all. You should have just said, “you’re stinky and you eat your own bougars.” It would have made you look more intelligent.

“Please point me to where I made any firm claims about anything, took a firm stand on either Mrs. Filler’s or Kellett’s veracity or competency, or claimed to have or be affiliated with a, um, “lot.” I’m just saying that Elam and his, um, “lot” are a ridiculous, freakish group of ranty little baby-men, and he appears to be dead wrong about pretty much everything he holds dear. That’s all.”

Elam and his lot are ridiculous freakish… That sounds like a firm STAND to me. Also, claiming that people who sign an online petition are all bitter and crazy – that is also a firm stand. Claiming that people who follow the falserapesociety blog – that too is a firm stand.

“Ranty little baby-men”. Uh huh. You have completely failed to address any of my points.


“And real activism: organizing demonstrations, setting up hotlines, volunteering to assist, for example, male victims of DV; raising money to build shelters for men or to support organizations that work on issues that affect men (eg, Just Detention), becoming involved in local politics, organizing boycotts in a real and practical way, lobbying the government, etc etc. ”

I guess you found that one example of activism (the petition), and criticized it, since it didn’t have 1000 signatures. Nice propaganda Dave.

I’ll have you know that in addition to this petition, Elam and others request writing letters to senators, congressmen, British parliament, news channels.

And yes, I have written letters to these people – and gotten responses.

Also, He frequently points out the links to various organizations like “The Innocence Project” – which I regularly donate to.

As far as demonstrations go. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the media SELECTIVELY shows ONLY the nutcases dressed up as batman – rather than show so-called “normal people” protesting?

10 years ago

Pecunium, well, one of the things is that this program is more manipulative then I thought it was. I mean I had heard about it being so but wow, takes the cake.

Second, many of the same things we tell guys to do to improve their chances, he tells them. But apparently coming from someone you pay $1500, it means more. *rolls eyes*

10 years ago

ScareCrow P-Man: Has it occurred to you that if there were enough people, it would be news? If 500 people showed up in Maine to protest, it would make the local news. That’s because the out of the ordinary makes news.

The fact of the matter is that the sort of agenda driven prosecution Elam (and all the “false rape” conspiracists) claim is driving the system, is really rare.

Why? Because the appeals process, arcane as it is, works to prevent the sorts of allegations you make from being affirmed. Which, in turn, works to keep people from prosecuting really weak cases.

How do you feel about this: only 58 percent rate of conviction in reported rapes Or that a huge backlog of rape kits exists.

I presume you would favor a faster turnaround, so that the innocent might be exonerated, and the guilty convicted.

Actually, I presume no such thing, because I’ve not seen one whiff that you actually care about rape being prosecuted. I see you making special pleadings that some accuser is impeached because they were involved in some relationship with the accused, and so the accusation should just be tossed out because, “she had reason to lie”.

Which ignores the counter-argument, “He had reason to attack her.” That sort of interpersonal conflict isn’t tidy. It’s not so cut and dried that only one party has incentive to lash out at the other.

But you don’t believe that. You argue, not that rape is less pervasive, but rather women lie about it. Never mind that most rape accusations are dismissed. That reporting a rape leads to an invasive; and by all accounts traumatic, examination. That the defense will call the accuser a slut, a tramp, etc. That people who hear about it will ask, “what she did to encourage it?” (e.g. did she have a drink, wear “provacative” clothing, “lead him on”, etc.), and then, to top it all off, MRAs will say she lied about it, because she has a grudge; if not against him in particular, against all men (as is alleged against the prosecutor here).

In the face of all that you want us to believe that the odds are stacked against the men.

Please, pull the other one.

10 years ago

PFKAElizabeth: I was more wondering about how the Game came up on the date. As to the pay money for it… yes. It’s not that it’s more true, but it’s that what one gets for free, one holds more cheaply.

The act of shelling out hard earned cash means they listen, and accept, more. Vast swathes of the, “self-help” industry work on that very principle. Stuff everyone knows, packaged slickly and sold for dollars not pennies; et. Voila!… revelations.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

Mod – Please ignore the first version thats in the moderation list, this one is an amended version


Did you know that rape is the only crime with a conviction rate thats measured against the attrition rate and when the conviction rate is measured in the same way as other crimes rape has just as successful a conviction rate? Its another one of the rape frauds.

Besides, a crime that falsely reported more than any other would hopefully have a poor conviction rate.

Anyway, you can learn about the fraud works here.

How the panic over rape was orchestrated
For years the Home Office and the former Lord Chancellor’s Department have misled the media about rape statistics – and allowed the media to misinform the public.
Anxiety has grown as a result of the apparent increase in rape offences and the inability to successfully prosecute offenders. Women have been needlessly alarmed for their safety, when the actual threat is much smaller than has been pretended.

Congratulations, therefore, to the Radio 4 programme More or Less and its reporter Ruth Alexander, who have put into the public domain what some advisers engaged by Whitehall committees have known for some time.

This official misinformation, one suspects, was a deliberate policy choice (beginning somewhere around 1988) to ensure that no matter what the cost, rape and sex crimes would climb remorselessly up the political agenda….

Follow the link for the rest.

10 years ago

No surprises indeed. Do you realise you have compared apples to oranges and expected us to think they are cherries?

Because the stats I referred to were for the US, so referring me to a Home Office report for the UK, and then telling me that makes my reference incorrect… is bollocks.

I was conservative in my quoting too. I didn’t take the “6 percent of rapists actually go to jail” part, because that presumes all the backgrounder stats (which includes an estimate of unreported rapes which isn’t really provable). The more interesting point is the low number of convicted rapists who actually end up in prison (i.e. 31 percent get, “time served”, if any).

As to the conviction rate. Hogwash. Given the large number of people (such as, it appears, yourself) who believe that rape is over-accused, falsely accused, etc., the nature of the trials (in which, more often than not the accused is pilloried as a tramp, who [in some way] asked for it, the imputation that it’s a simple disagreement about who said what when, etc.) and the cases where passed out women, or mentally handicapped, or otherwise incapable women are gang-raped; on film, and the jury acquits… no I don’t buy the argument that all the acquittals are of innocent men.

They are, legally, not rapists, but that doesn’t change that women were raped; any more than than acquitting someone of murder means it didn’t happen.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago


“who believe that rape is over-accused, falsely accused”

I think that you are confusing belief with fact, its a fact that rape as a politicized crime that is completely overblown (go to any feminist site “rape rape rape”) and that studies that record cases where the accuser has admitted that they falsely accused show high rates.

I don’t think that anyone assumes that all acquittals are innocent men either, thats not possible.

Here is a bit on false accusations, I contend that false accusations are worse than rape, the rational for that is that false accusations cause death of the victim more often than rape does.

Anyway, here is a bit on false accusations.

Internationally acclaimed attorney, Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz published an article in the Boston Herald (8/6/94) in which he discussed a nine year study by a Purdue Univ. (female) Sociologist, reported in The Archives of Sexual Behavior, conducted in a large metropolitan area, including two large universities, in which the data showed that 40% of the sexual assault allegations were false. The only definition of “false” was the admission by the supposed “victim” that she had lied. Another study reported in Dershowitz’s article was done by New York City sex crimes prosecutor, Linda Fairstein in 1987. Fairstein [the author of “Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape”] found that, of 4000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan, “about HALF simply did not happen!” To paraphrase the Jerry Lee Lewis song, there’s “A whole lot of lying going on!”
In an investigation of 556 rape cases, reported in Forensic Science Digest, Vol.11, no.4, Dec. 1985, it was found through DNA testing that 33% of the accusations were false. Another 27% in the same study were shown to be false when the women involved admitted lying, or were shown to be lying by lie detector tests. That’s a total of 60% false accusations.

Washington Post reported it’s own study, in June, 1992, wherein 30% of allegations of rape were proven false.

Domestic abuse: Does money fuel false allegations?
About Half of Rape Allegations are False, Research Shows
False Domestic Violence Claims Raise Concerns.
A study by Hugo Adam and Micheael Radelet, reported in Stanford Law Review, 11/87, found 350 cases where DNA proved the accusation false. Sadly, 23 of the men falsely accused had already been executed, and eight more had died in prison; quite a high price to pay for promoting the false notion that women don’t lie about sexual assault.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

Little bit more here for Pecunium

“During my time as a prosecutor who made case filing decisions, I was amazed to see all the false rape allegations that were made…Any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes that there is.”
(Former Colorado prosecutor Craig Silverman)
Despite the controversy, many family law professionals agree that false claims of domestic violence are often used as custody maneuvers in divorce cases. For example, an article in the Family Law News, the official publication of the State Bar of California Family Law Section, explained: “[Domestic Violence] Protective orders are increasingly being used in family law cases to help one side jockey for an advantage in child custody… [they are] almost routinely issued by the court in family law proceedings even when there is relatively meager evidence and usually without notice to the restrained person.”

An article in the November, 2007 issue of the Illinois Bar Journal explains: “If a parent is willing to abuse the system [by making false DV claims], it is unlikely the trial court could discover [his or her] improper motives in an Order of Protection hearing.” Domestic Violence Protective (aka “Restraining”) orders have become so commonplace that the Illinois Bar Journal calls them “part of the gamesmanship of divorce.”

10 years ago

I read what I could The first 404s, so I have no idea what it says

The second one is harder to evaluate, as many of the source documents it refers to also 404.

The Air Force Study is 26 years old, and I can’t read the source.

The second has no date, and the source is 404.

The third is sourced to the same docs, ergo 404.

The fourth.the one about the DNA evidence… The data are all old: the most recent case in the study was in 1991, i.e. 20 years ago. More to the point is they weren’t cases of “false accusation” but of the wrong person being convicted. A distinction with a most important difference.

Examples: Factual background. In the early morning of June
23, 1984, a woman and her boyfriend were sleeping
in their car on a rural roadside when a man
approached, pretending to be a police officer. He
ordered the two out of the car, brandished a gun,
and ordered the boyfriend to run into the woods.
The assailant forced the woman into his truck,
drove to a secluded area, and repeatedly raped her.
The police compiled a composite sketch of the
assailant from the victim and her boyfriend. A
woman was later raped 100 miles away, near Edward
Honaker’s house. She said the assailant resembled
Honaker, her neighbor. Honaker had an alibi and was
never charged with this second rape. The detective
on the second rape case, however, took a picture of
Honaker and showed it to the first victim and her

So the boyfriend was in on it too?

Factual background. Early in the morning of August
24, 1985, three women left a nightclub and sat
talking in their cars. A man came between the two
cars and ordered a woman out of one of them. He
then got into the car with the victim and ordered
her to drive away. After driving to a different
section of town, the assailant asked the woman for
her name and address. She supplied him with a phony
name and number; then the assailant raped her.

All three women made it up?

Factual background. On October 4, 1980, police
found a woman dead in her apartment, face down and
naked, except for a nightgown around her neck. Her
head was covered with blood, and her body had many
visible wounds. She had also been sexually

Linscott was a neighbor of the victim and was
questioned by police during a neighborhood canvass.
He later remembered a dream he had the night of the
murder, which seemed to parallel the incident.
After reporting his dream to police, he gave
several recorded interviews with police officers.
He also gave saliva, blood, and hair samples to


Factual background. Two men stole a van and drove
to a parking garage in the hopes of committing a
robbery. They accosted a woman when she came into
the garage and forced her into the van. The two men
allegedly sexually assaulted the woman repeatedly,
pulled out a knife, and choked the woman to death
with a piece of cloth.


Factual background. In the early morning of January
24, 1984, a woman was sexually assaulted and
murdered in her home by an assailant who had
entered the home through the victim’s basement
window. The woman died from asphyxiation by

Got it… the dead women made it all up.

Factual background. In the early morning of July
29, 1990, the victim was at home alone when she
heard a knock at her door. She looked through the
peephole and asked the man to identify himself. The
man said he was with the victim’s friend, who was
parking the car. When he said this, the victim
thought she recognized his voice as belonging to a
man named Tim or Tom, who had been in her house
before. The victim let the man inside; he
immediately pulled out a knife, cut the victim on
the neck, breast, and stomach, and then raped her.

She was so interested in framing this guy that she slashed herself.

Factual background. Two women, in separate
incidents, were abducted at knife point in a
shopping mall parking lot. Both times the assailant
wore a ski mask and forced the victims to close
their eyes throughout the attack. In the first
instance, the attacker drove around in the woman’s
car, repeatedly raped her, and stole a gold watch
and $5. The victim opened her eyes briefly to note
that the assailant wore brown pants and was
uncircumcised. In the second case, the man
repeatedly raped the woman and stole a gold watch.
This woman was able to note the man’s boots,
jacket, and hair color. She also noted that he was

Two women, separate incidents. Did they get together and say… “Hey, I know, lets get some random guy convicted of rape.”

The point of this… your abtracts aren’t supported by the actual papers.

The last link… woman makes rape claim to get day off of work this one isn’t a false accusation, just a false report. She never said who it was she claimed was there. It first fails to meet the actual claim you are making and second says, Marlow_Rape is a traumatic crime, and when police get a call reporting sexual assault, it’s taken very seriously. Police want to make sure that the person responsible for the crime is locked up and prevented from attacking anyone else, but 2% of all rape cases reported are discovered to be false accusations. Two percent.

Yep, that puts me in my place all right.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

There was no attempt to “put you in your place”.

It just counters your claim that the problem with false accusations of rape is a belief, something that’s imaginary.

As for the feminist claim of a 2% false reporting rate, its yet another lie about rape. “Lets convince the world that there isn’t a problem with women lying about rape, by lying about it”.

Edward Greer*
For at least the last decade, Legal Dominance Feminism (LDF)1has been the predominant voice on sexual abuse within legal academia.2 However, many of its empirical claims regarding the sexual abuse of women are erroneous.3 Unlike the exemplary scholarshipof other feminist academics,4 LDF has in recent years promulgated a series of social science myths about rape in the American legal system. Often resting upon a highly problematic methodology…..”

A. The Overwhelming Consensus
One highly respected legal academic, elected by her peers as
president of the prestigious Association of American Law Schools,
recently reported that “the overwhelming consensus in . . . research relying on government data is that false reports account for only about 2 percent of rape complaints.”9 It is indisputably true that,
largely through the efforts of legal dominance feminists, there now exists a consensus among legal academics that only two percent of rape complaints are false.10 This purportedly empirical statement is
ubiquitously repeated in legal literature. Dozens of law review articles reiterate that no more than one in fifty rape complaints is false.11 This empirical fact, however, is an ideological fabrication.12…”

10 years ago

No surprises here: Yes, and here is an extensive piece that David put together containing links to articles about why Kanin’s study is laughably unreliable, why false rape claims are difficult to quantify, and other issues surrounding the MRM’s love of the false rape boogeyman. We’ve had this discussion before; you’re late to the party.

Scarecrow P-Man: I’m sorry for not taking your wild claims and silly belief system more seriously and treating it and you with more respect. You’ll have to excuse me for not wanting to waste much time and effort with someone who repeatedly and doggedly misreads my words and is unable to understand simple concepts. It’s just not worth it.

10 years ago

Still no surprises: I think that you are confusing belief with fact, its a fact that rape as a politicized crime that is completely overblown (go to any feminist site “rape rape rape”) and that studies that record cases where the accuser has admitted that they falsely accused show high rates.

That is why I said you were “trying to put me in my place” (i.e. make it plain I am in some way deluded).

I’ve looked at your, “evidence” and it’s not what you claim it is. You’ve, obviously, not read what I said. I’ve (in this very comment thread) said I don’t believe the stats based on “unreported rapes”. That doesn’t mean there aren’t unreported rapes. It means they aren’t quatifiable.

But your citations disagree with your position. That means that (even if I take them at face value) your arguments fail. That’s not even considering that you are looking to documents some 20-30 years old, which is problematic in a changing social environment.

The short version. I know what you believe. I also know you don’t have a clue about what constitutes decent research, nor compelling argument.

10 years ago

To elaborate (as you obviously didn’t read my longer post).

The documents you provided either were either 404 (i.e. unvailable), non-topical (the NIJ article was about people falsely convicted for actual rapes; three of them rape murders, several with witness to the rape/abduction), or not about an actual accusation of rape.

So no, you failed to meet the threshold of proof you established (i.e. discussing false accusations of rape).

10 years ago

Oh, I see now Pecunium. His brother gave him the two books in an effort to get my date to have more confidence when dealing with women outside of technical stuff. So when I went over to his house on Wednesday, he showed them to me and we proceeded to mock them to no end of fun.

Then again, I once gave my best friend Knock Knock’s Procedural Dating Kit. Although it was a joke, he did actually try to use it. Bloody attorneys.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

Actually bee, Kanins’s study has been replicated and the feminist criticism of it is like the 2% false reporting fraud. More lies about rape dressed up to look like something credible.

Again its a group of women trying to convince the world that there isn’t a problem with women telling lies about rape by telling lies about rape.

10 years ago

No surprises here: Kanin’s study has been replicated? It’s been so thoroughly discredited that one would think that any credible evidence overturning the conclusion that it’s wrong (which is supported by common sense, personal experience, and numerous studies elsewhere) would be widely quoted among the MRA community as well as heralded in the false-rape-decriers community. And yet, it is so difficult to find evidence of such a thing existing. Perhaps you could humor me by linking to this incredibly reliable, well-sourced, scientifically backed study that recreates what Kanin did.

And by the way — false rape reports, when they happen, are problematic. It’s just that they don’t happen very often. It kinda seems like all this bullshit you’re spouting is kind of designed to stop any reasonable discussion about rape actually being a very big problem. Most rapes aren’t reported. Most rapes aren’t prosecuted. Any ideology that finds its message in pretending that false rape reports are this overwhelming, systematic problem while ignoring the problem of rape itself is not going to get a lot of credence from me. Sorry.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago


Kanins study hasn’t been discredited at all, some feminist sources wrote some bullshit about it and Lisak was paid to do some thing but it is weak at best. Kanins study which has been replicated, only recorded the women that admitted that they were lying, as lying.
Feminist research is whats called advocacy research, its not the real thing, it just looks like it at first glance but it toes an ideological line.

“Ignoring the problem of rape”

Rape of women isn’t being ignored its the most politicised, over blown, exaggerated over publicized, over reacted to and lied about crime there is.

Rape of men, rape by women, female pedophilia, female domestic abuse, false accusation is all covered up by feminism – the politically correct abusers lobby, and ignored, but rape of women isn’t.

You know full well that rape of women isn’t ignored and false accusation result in death more often than rape.

Given that we both know that you know that, it makes you look like yet another feminist, lying about rape.

But of course, women lying about rape isn’t common right?

10 years ago

Uh, neither rape nor false accusations result in death (unless the rapist passed on some fatal disease in the process). It’s people killing people that results in death. Some of those killers are also rapists, some of them are fellow inmates in prison, some of them are probably vigilantes on the street. Do you seriously think women are accusing men of rape in order to get them killed? Because if that was the goal there are a lot more efficient ways to go about doing it 😛

10 years ago

No surprises: Thanks for the link to that study you mentioned. It was really really awesome. Very eye-opening, well-done, meticulously documented. I have now changed my mind. Rapes never happen. Wimmens just like to lie all the time because they evil.

Oh, what’s that? There was no study? Or there was, but you’re ashamed to link to it because it’s so disreputable? Never mind; you and your mendacious, hateful movement are full of bullshit. Good to know.

10 years ago

Some of the posters who are speaking from real experience, might, nay, shall take issue with your claim that rape is not ignored.

“Bartholomew and some other experts say the alternative labeling of alleged sexual assault raises questions about the accuracy of the department’s recent rape statistics, showing a sharp decrease from 2007 to 2008 in the number of rapes and attempted rapes reported to the FBI: 114 rapes in 2007, down to 72 rapes last year.

The police statistics contrast with the experience of the Interim LSU Public Hospital, where the number of sexual assault victims seeking rape examinations climbed from 149 in 2007 to 168 in 2008.” Source

Based on this, are you going to claim that of the 96 women/men seeking rape kits at the hospital that ALL of them were lying liars or just that they decided it was not worth the pain of going through what police can do to victims.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

lol @ Bee

You and many here have come out in support of a false rape accuser and convicted child abuser as well as the corrupt prosecutor that is working on her behalf.

No doubt if the genetic codes of the victim and abuser here were swapped, your allegiances would change… and you say that we are the hate movement, project much? You have also published lies about rape while pushing, and say that we are full of bullshit.. projection.

Feminism, with its rape lies, and defense of female abusers of all colours, is the real abusers lobby, the real abuse culture.

10 years ago

“Lol @ Bee

You and many here have come out in support of a false rape accuser and convicted child abuser as well as the corrupt prosecutor that is working on her behalf.”

If you cared just a small amount about the child you would not have opened with LOL.

10 years ago

Incorrect Mr. No Surprise. We believe the system has worked at it is supposed to-the man appealed his conviction, it was overturned due to problems with the trial and he has a chance at a second trial. This is what we call “due process of law.” Perhaps you have some other system in mind that assumes if someone is accused of rape they should be given a free pass if you dislike the person making the accusation.

10 years ago

@Xtra: “a petition going to have Elam legally change his name to Colonel Froofroo Sillybuns”

So – you do believe in infringing on the rights of others – and forcing your will upon them – all in an attempt to humiliate them. Why am I not surprised… Isn’t that what rapists do?

@Scarecrow, not really since we all know such a petition even if it had 10,000 signatures would not be enforced. Although I do agree with the humiliation of someone like Elam who would love me to be live as a second class citizen in society because I am a woman. I doubt very much he will feel humiliated by such though so basically your whole trope is not even ginuine because you know exactly the same.

10 years ago

No surprises: Even on MRA sites, where there are no links or citations, they are careful to call Ligia a “known” or a “proven” child abuser. You’re the first person I’ve seen call her a “convicted” child abuser. I guess I’m unlikely to get a source for that one too, huh?

And oh yes, you remind me that I’m also still waiting for you to find where I’ve stated that I support either Ligia or Mary Kellett. But I know the answer to that one: You’ve made it up. I have no idea what they’ve done, I have no inside knowledge about them at all. If they’ve done the heinous misdeeds of which Elam has accused them, they should be punished, and the righteous and innocent Vladek be freed, and restitution be made to him forever and ever, amen.

My point is merely that Elam is a stupid, mendacious, hateful douche, and so is everyone who blindly believes him; and that there is at least some evidence out there that points toward a conclusion that Elam’s story is not the only story. I would have to have a lot more evidence, however, to feel good about making any kind of proclamation about anyone’s relative guilt or innocence: something that you obviously have no problem with doing on very little information, coming from one source, Paul Elam.

And whatever. Good for you for taking such a brave and principled stand on a subject you know nothing about. Way to live up to the stereotype.

10 years ago

Bee: Note the singular lack of evidence. When he does provide a link it’s to outdated, or non-topical issues; papers which actually undercut his position. Either he fails to read them (hence the 404 on the supporting docs for his abstracts) or assumes that those whom he tosses this garbage at will either just take it at face value that links must be supporting, or skim the first page, without looking at the supporting documents.

It’s a poor bet, in general, and it failed him here. I may be hard to convince, but if one has evidence I will look at it, just in case I’ve been misinformed. So far nothing he’s offered has risen to the level of making me doubt my position in the least.

No suprises here
No suprises here
10 years ago

Nah, you are just a bunch of feminist muppets that will blindly support and lie to support abusers and abuse so long as the genetic codes match up to your movements specifications of what is correct.

Lila Filler being abusive and violent

Lila Filler being coached on her testomony

Feminists maintain the most aggressive and active rape and abuse cultures in our society.

10 years ago

What we have here is, no surprise, an idea that all the answers are known. Any disagreement isn’t honest, it’s willful.

I tried to listen to the first, but it’s hard, not least because there isn’t any provenance. I don’t really doubt it, but the context is missing, and hearing the cop making editorial comments on the state of the person he’s looking for isn’t all that convincing. His source for the alleged death threats? Unknown.

and the second… it looked like a post-mortem. Filler is talking about how she reacted in some hearing which has concluded. She’s saying exactly the same things that we are told the MRA types are interested in… “fighting for her kids.”

But I didn’t hear anyone saying, “now, if you want the court to believe that you are the victim you will have to say, X,Y, and Z”. Who, btw, is the other voice?

Are we also expected to believe Vladek wasn’t, “coached” by his attorneys?


So it’s not a question of, “was the preparation of Filler’s in violation of standard practice, and did the prosecution suborn perjury”, but rather that we are expected to accept the implications of wrongdoing. On the basis of… well there isn’t any basis.

Since a reasonable person has to assume Vladek’s attorney, “coached” him as well, the argument is actually for a double-standard.

Which is what those of us saying the MRA groups aren’t about equality have been saying. Nice to see it so plainly laid out.

As he said, there are no surprises here.

10 years ago

I watched the second one, just what on earth are these guys getting so bent out of shape over? That she was trying to not become emotional and someone points out that it will not seem real if she suppresses her emotion?
Then supposedly she stopped suppressing her emotions?

Geez, I guess we have a slam dunk case of…a woman trying to not be upset (which is unnatural) and then being upset (which is natural). She was violating no laws! Hang her!


10 years ago

I love this post so much.

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