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Lara Logan Redux: More victim blaming, rape denial and rape apologetics from In Mala Fide

Screenshot of In Mala Fide

TRIGGER WARNING: Graphic descriptions of sexual assault; rape apologetics.

Journalist Lara Logan recently appeared on 60 Minutes, giving the harrowing details of the brutal sexual and physical assault she sustained at the hands of a mob while covering the protests for (60 Minutes) in Cairo this past February.

When news of the assault first hit the internet, you may recall, it seemed to open the floodgates of misogyny and racism. Looking at one Yahoo News story on the attack, I found hundreds of vile comments – some blaming Logan for her victimization, or doubting it ever happened; others using the assault as an excuse to spout hateful filth about Arabs and Muslims in general.  In the “manosphere” itself, the reaction was predictably appalling, with many MRAs not only mocking and belittling the victim but using the case to push their own retrograde agenda. (See my post here for more details.)

Even within this context, the reaction of blogger Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide stood out for its sheer nastiness; I wrote about it here. In his first post on the subject, Bardamu mocked the victim, declared that “she had it coming,” then suggested that she probably hadn’t been raped at all. Based on no evidence whatsoever, he speculated that she may have just  “made the whole thing up to garner attention and sympathy from the weepy, chivalrous masses. “

Bardamu has now used the occasion of Logan’s new CBS interview as an excuse to mock the victim again — calling her, among other things, an “idiot,” a “moron,” a “strumpet” and a “fake-breasted tart” — and to repeat his contention that she wasn’t “really” raped at all. Indeed, he says, the interview has “vindicated” his skepticism about the rape. Why? Because in her interview of 60 Minutes, Logan had spoken about being penetrated by the hands of her attackers. Bardamu evidently finds this highly risable, and somehow manages to convince himself that Logan was merely groped:

But seriously, “they raped [you] with their hands”?

Look, I’m no scholar, but even with feminists’ constant re-defining of rape, I know for a fact that rape has to involve a penis. Specifically, an penis entering an orifice without invitation. If you didn’t get a dick forced into your mouth, vagina or asshole, you didn’t get raped.

Logan and CBS’ deliberate vagueness about the “sexual assault” back in February was no doubt calculated to make people imagine the worst possible scenario that could happen. A line of hairy, creepy men pulling a train on her. Triple penetration at all times, the hairy sleazy monkey-men shooting jizz in every hole in her body, donkey punching her every time she tried to resist. In reality, she probably got spit on a few times, had her butt slapped, and had her silicone tits felt up. That’s not rape, you strumpet, that’s Spring Break in Cancun!

It’s hard to even know where to start with something this appalling. First of all, as a few dissenters pointed out in the comments on Bardamu’s post, it is still rape – “real” rape – when you are penetrated with fingers, bottles, or any other foreign object. When Abner Louima was brutally sodomized with the handle a bathroom plunger by New York city cops, that was rape, real rape. And what Logan says happened to her was real rape too.

As for the rest, I think the only thing to do is to contrast Bardamu’s words with Logan’s account of what happened to her, taken from a transcript of the interview.

As Logan tells the story of the assault, she and her crew were caught in the midst of a mob. Men grabbed her, groped her, and literally tore the clothes from her body. As she describes it:

I feel them tearing at my clothing. I think my shirt, my sweater was torn off completely. My shirt was around my neck. I felt the moment that my bra tore. They tore the metal clips of my bra. They tore those open. … [T]hey literally just tore my pants to shreds. And then I felt my underwear go.

Some men began beating her with sticks and others, with their hands, penetrated her. In this and the following passages I’ve bolded the statements dealing specifically with the sexual aspect of the assault. Logan again:

I didn’t even know that they were beating me with flagpoles and sticks and things, because I couldn’t even feel that. Because I think of the sexual assault, was all I could feel, was their hands raping me over and over and over again. …

They were tearing my body in every direction at this point, tearing my muscles. And they were trying to tear off chunks of my scalp … not trying to pull out my hair, holding big wads of it, literally trying to tear my scalp off my skull. And I thought, …  I am going to die here.

This assault lasted 25 minutes. Logan says:

[T]hat’s when I said, “Okay, it’s about staying alive now. I have to just surrender to the sexual assault. What more can they do now? They’re inside you everywhere.” So the only thing to fight for, left to fight for, was my life.

Ultimately, Logan was rescued and rushed to the hospital. Logan continues:

I stayed there for four days, which was hard. My muscles were so unbelievably sore, because they were literally stretched from the mob trying to tear my limbs off my body. My joints, every joint in my body was distended. And then they, the more intimate injuries, the injuries, the tearing inside. And the mark of their hands, their fingers all over my body, cuts and everything you could imagine. But no broken bones.

This horrific account bears very little resemblance, it hardly needs to be said, to Spring Break in Cancun.

Naturally, a number of the commenters on Bardamu’s  site manage if anything to be even more vile than Bardamu himself.

McGlothin suggests that Logan probably enjoyed the experience:

It’s not impossible that she went all the way to orgasm when the testosterone filled raging men fingered and groped her. That would explain the vagueness of her description: she was way enjoying it so much that she could not remember precisely what happened except that they molested her manually.

Attila concurs:

This gynbot just wants attention, and is playing the “Arabs are animals” routine for brownie points. She probably got groped a little, in a way that she has never been groped before, and she may be reacting to the fact that she may have gotten a thrill out of it.

Commander Shepard throws some racism and “slut”-shaming into the mix:

She was raped by their hands? LOL. A pretty blond like Logan probably spent her youth getting gang banged by alphas. In this case the men were beneath her (dirty sand niggers) but even they didn’t penetrate. She’s probably more upset about her bruised ego than her bruised body.

Bardamu wrote his post, I should note,  before the interview aired, and before anything beyond a few quotes from it had been published. But it is telling that he has not bothered to go back and watch or read the full account. Not that it would matter; he made up his mind on the case a long time ago, and I doubt that anything could change it. Like many in the “manosphere,” Bardamu and his fans see only what they want to see, and use their imagination – and their prejudices — to fill in the rest.

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Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
10 years ago

So what’s the plan to change the system? And how long will it take, in your estimation, to go in to effect?

mediumdave
mediumdave
10 years ago

Your compassion overwhelms me, MRAL. Women aren’t getting fat to spite you. Why do you think you deserve compassion, when you have none?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
10 years ago

I bet it really chaps your ass that there are fat women getting laid right now, doesn’t it?

Lady Victoria von Syrus
Lady Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

But this is a textbook example of how the MRA philosophy can benefit women too.

Whaaa…? It benefits women to be slut-shamed, mocked and disbelieved when she’s brave enough to come forward about suffering sexual assault?

Um, how? How will Lara Logan benefit from the MRA philosophy?

And, FWIW, I’ve been with men who were conventionally unattractive and men who were poor and unemployed. My first boyfriend was pretty overweight, and I’ve dated men who meet the definition of obese. And in fact, those overweight men are some of my happiest experiences – they were kind, attentive, thoughtful and interested in what I had to say. They were also pretty damn amazing in bed, and gave a shit about making me feel good, too.

So maybe, just maybe, MRAL, women reject you because they can sense your seething anger at not getting the pussy you feel you deserve, and your eye problem has nothing to do with it. Even if Johnny Depp or Hugh Jackman himself came up to me and treated me like he was owed sex from me, or treated me like my thoughts didn’t matter, or treated me like I had better be living my life in an eternal apology for all the women who had turned men down…. I’d tell him to get the hell away from me.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
10 years ago

I feel so bad thinking of what Lara Logan went through. I hope she doesn’t read or find all that nasty garbage written on the Internet about her and the incident. After the trauma of rape, it’s awful victims have to go through such verbal abuse from jerks. I think some of those Spearhead men could actually watch a rape occur right in front of them, and they would deny it was real, as long as the victim is a woman. There is video footage of her screaming “Stop!” while a vicious mob surrounds her, so what more proof does anyone need? Why can’t they blame the perpetrators for once instead of the victim? Is it possible for a woman to be raped in such a way that In Mala Fide and Spearhead readers finally put the blame where it belongs? It makes me seriously pissed off that so many people have such warped views.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

MRAL: A couple questions. This is fascinating.

1. Do you know any women?

2. And they’ve never been dumped or rejected or made fun of by anyone?

3. Really?

4. And these men and women that you’ve “observed” acting in typical alphabetaomega fashion or whatever–you’ve never seen any of them do something out of character from what you’re describing here?

5. Really? Like honestly, you’ve never even seen the charismatic, confident fat chick who everyone wants to get with because she’s awesome and fun and sexy?

6. Or the okay-looking guy with a good job and nice body who can’t get laid because he’s a jackass with a palpable hatred of women?

7. Or do you just ignore people who don’t fit into your weird worldview, much like you’re ignoring people here who are telling you that you’re bullshit because, duh, reality?

8. And you seriously think that it’s only your incontrovertible omeganess that keeps beautiful women from wanting you, and nothing else, like your horrible self-esteem, your bad attitude, and your own palpable hatred of women?

I have lots more questions. But I’ll wait for you to catch up. Seriously: fascinating!

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Hmmm… Lara Logan lives in a world dominated by white men and was brutally assaulted by men.

Malcolm X lived in a world dominated by white men whose father might have been murdered for being black.

While Ferdinand Bardamu and MRAL are (presumably) white males in a world dominated by white men…

Can’t you see it’s all a plot!?!

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

I honestly think that most women (betas and alphas) have literally NO concept of what it even means to be rejected.

*Snerk*
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!
*sniff*
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!

OK… Ok… I’m sorry.

Ah-Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Xtra
10 years ago

I think I got it. Women turning down men because they are not attracted to them = horrible injustice worse than the holocaust. Men not wanting the fatty-fatty-fat-fat, and even being hostile towards her = ok. She should be “normal” and hot.

I fully understand the MRA line now. Excuse me while I go throw up. At least I didn’t have lunch yet.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

The Western world is not dominated by men. Whites, sure, but not men. And those men who ARE in power are predominantly manginas like Obama.

Johnny
Johnny
10 years ago

Okay, so here’s my question, and I guess I’ve been attempting to get you to answer it in a roundabout way. I’ll be direct.

What would you change about society that would make women not reject you?

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

1. A few, but most bitches won’t associate with an omega.

2. Hardly at all. Definitely not if she’s an alpha bitch. Women sometimes make fun of each other but that’s not what I’m talking about

3. Yes. Can you honestly say you’ve seen a hot woman get overtly rejected off-the-bat after approaching a man who doesn’t look like a movie star (ie, isn’t an alpha alpha)? I’d like to hear about it if you have.

4. Not really. There are exceptions but the Greek system must be spoken of in general terms.

5. A fat chick can be socially charismatic, sure. But sexually? Nope, never seen it.

6. Well, if he’s an okay-looking asshole (ie a beta), he’ll get left by himself. On the other hand, women flock to alpha asshole.

7. No I don’t.

8. Omeganess breeds low self-esteem. I think they both play a part.

mediumdave
mediumdave
10 years ago

Manginas? What are mangina’s? Are they the same as Alphas? If they’re in power they must be Alphas. I’m confused now.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

The Western world is not dominated by men. Whites, sure, but not men. And those men who ARE in power are predominantly manginas like Obama.

Howmany Presidents out of 45 have been female? How many current congressional members are female? How many world leaders have been female? How does a “mangina” beat out “Alphas” or even “Alpha-Alphas”? How many heads of state in all of history have been women? How many of the Gnomes of Zurich are female? How many CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies are female?

Your world view, it does not touch reality.

Stacey C.
Stacey C.
10 years ago

Wow. MRAL, I would seriously consider some psychotherapy. I don’t mean that to be mean, I think that you have a lot of pent up rage and anger. If you learned to love yourself a little more and find some compassion for others you might find yourself a lot more attractive to and toward women and might ‘get some’. But not with the raging, snarling, hatred seething inside of you right now.

Joe
Joe
10 years ago

> A fat chick can be socially charismatic, sure. But sexually? Nope, never seen it.

You really need to get out more. You have no idea.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Johnny, if I really had a direct answer for that I wouldn’t be an MRA. I follow wise men like Ferrell and W.F. Price because they offer a better tomorrow, as said earlier. I suppose the main trick is simply to convince women to stop thinking of men solely in terms of looks and money. How? That’s a question for higher-level MRA scholars.

clairedammit
clairedammit
10 years ago

The Western world is not dominated by men. Whites, sure, but not men. And those men who ARE in power are predominantly manginas like Obama.

Okay, so become a mangina and you too can get laid. Because you’ll have the power. Just like Obama. Just like David here. See? I just solved all of your problems for you.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
10 years ago

MRAL: What specific plans does the MRM have for changing this supposed sexual hierarchy people live in? You’ve also mentioned leveling the sexual playing field. How exactly do you suggest doing that? I do understand what it’s like to feel rejection from the opposite sex. It wasn’t until after I had worn braces, got rid of a bad perm, and had a nose job that guys ever noticed me. I never considered it to be a political issue, though. I also didn’t think that having other people put me down meant it was okay to become bitter and angry towards all men. Not all women are shallow or stuck up, and there are women out there who judge men by their character instead of their looks.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
10 years ago

MRAL, could you stop calling women bitches? Because I am tired of it and about to ask that David ban you.

You do not like women. You hate them. This we get. So there is no further need to show your contempt by using such a word.

Good god, and then you wonder why you are single. It has nothing to do with your face. It has everything to do with the fact you are an asshole with no intelligence, wit, or other saving grace.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

cynickal, you can’t simply quantify that shit. A lot of those men are old white guys from the previous generations in which men really were dominant. Most of the others are manginas and might as well be women because they support them in everything. And as for Obama, you can be an alpha mangina, in fact that has become fairly commonplace recently. Obama is no doubt an alpha alpha, but this does not stop him from also being a mangina. Another example: Hugo Schwyzer, probably *the* definitive alpha mangina on the planet.

“You really need to get out more. You have no idea.”

No, I do. You can honestly tell me you’ve know fat (and I mean fat, not just above a size 8) women who can get relationships with alphas regularly? I don’t buy it. Oh, by the way, there’s a difference between being “charismatic” and legitimately charming alphas, as opposed to getting randomly fucked at parties by alphas because they’re horny at the moment.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
10 years ago

What is the MRM going to do, specifically, about getting Omegas access to the women they want? I’m just dying to know.

Kes
Kes
10 years ago

Butbutbut… Why would anyone want to get “randomly fucked” by an “alpha” in the first place? This is the piece of the puzzle I am missing. “Alphas” are jerks. “Alphas” spit on people and treat them like shit (or so I’m told.) Apparently being the leader of the free world and (tepidly) supporting women’s rights is anti-“alpha” behavior, so why would any woman want that? I don’t get this letter business at all. You kids today…

Kes
Kes
10 years ago

Also, I think this may be relevant to the discussion, vis-a-vis my opinion of this “Greek Hierarchy” bullshit: http://xkcd.com/800/

johnnykaje
10 years ago

The Greek system is far too complicated. I think we can narrow it down further to just two categories:

1. Clueless whiny brats

2. Everyone else

Prove to me that a person doesn’t fall in either of these groups. You can’t do it, huh feminists? I didn’t get such a high SAT score for nothing!

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Alphas are also hot, that’s why they’re alphas. They don’t HAVE to be jerks, but 99% of them choose to be- same goes for the bitches.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

cynickal, you can’t simply quantify that shit.

Have you tried http://www.statsoutofmyass.com ? You seem to not actually have any evidence to back up your arguments. “Because I say so!” sadly isn’t an argument no matter how often your mother uses it to get you to take out the garbage.

Most of the others are manginas and might as well be women because they support them in everything.

So if women support a man’s actions it’s because he’s a “mangina” not because it’s the proper and decent thing to do. Got it.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Is it not interesting that much has been made of Obama’s looks? No he’s not a young stud, but for his age Obama’s pretty good-looking. It wouldn’t seem to matter in terms of his abilities, so why bring it up? Because that’s the only way the bitches respect him, they don’t care about his oratory skills.

Kes
Kes
10 years ago

Okay, sooo hot people are, in your opinion, good in bed? Cause I gotta tell ya, that has *never* been my experience. I mean, I’ve never fucked a hot woman, so I wouldn’t know about that, but good-looking Game-playing PUA/Fratboy/Athlete types, in my experience: TERRIBLE lovers. No appreciation for their partner AT ALL.

Gender Queer folk are much better at teh sexy times. Which brings me back to my original point: Why the hell would anyone want to sleep with these “alpha” creatures?

mediumdave
mediumdave
10 years ago

Obama is no doubt an alpha alpha, but this does not stop him from also being a mangina.

So I’ll ask again: What is a mangina? If they have it so great, why would you not want to be one?

And Hugo Schwyzer? He’s an instructor at a junior college. He’d be an obscure figure if MRA’s hadn’t labeled him as Public Enemy #1. He’s probably tickled pink at all the attention. He’s like the Saul Alinsky of feminism.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Again, for most of today’s entitled bitches, men are for status as much as actual sex. So I think they would be willing to overlook an alpha’s sexual incompetence.

Joe
Joe
10 years ago

> You can honestly tell me you’ve know fat (and I mean fat, not just above a size women who can get relationships with alphas regularly? I don’t buy it.

I know fat women who have lots of sex with people they want to have sex with. Can’t see the downside there, for any of the people involved.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

A mangina is just a male feminist/female supremacist. Manginas don’t necessarily have it great, it’s just they do if they’re alphas. Obama is successful because of his alpha status, not his mangina status.

Why do you think the MRAs labeled Schwyzer Public Enemy #1? He has actual power as an alpha (proving my system) and he’s used his alpha status to push is mangina agenda, which is diametrically opposed to the MRA ideology.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

You mean they have sex with omegas. Thanks, I thought so.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

MRAL: Re. women never getting turned down or rejected or made fun of.

You’re wrong. Just that. I don’t know how else to put it. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

I am not supersexy, but I definitely have women friends who are, and I will tell you that to a one they have all been rejected, turned down, heartbroken, ignored, cheated on,out down, dismissed out of hand, let down not so gently, or broken up with–more than once. For all sorts of different reasons. I repeat: This is universal. Perhaps you, with your limitations, bad attitude, bad self-esteem, and bad view on women, have had more than your share of it.

Also: Hugo Schwyzer is your example of an alpha mangina? Jesus. I thought alpha was based on handsomeness or something. Don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying he’s heinous. But if women are slobbering all over him (isn’t he married?), it’s likely because he’s awesome, smart, and understanding–contrasted with your narcissism and compassionlessness–not because he’s some superhot lovegod.

As for the fat chicks not being sexy: I have got stories for you. MAN, have I got stories for you. Not that you’d believe them, but really. I have been friends with that sexy, awesome, confident fat woman, and it is amazing to watch what some confidence and a fun, sensual personality will do to the people around her.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

I don’t believe it.

Graham
Graham
10 years ago

“That’s a question for higher-level MRA scholars.”

This quote settles it: MRAL is definitely a troll, Poe, satirist, whatever you want to call it. Nobody could put those words in that order and mean it.

Jenny Dreadful
Jenny Dreadful
10 years ago

I like MRAL’s thing about how hard it is to get rejected by women every day. Like, who hits on a different lady every day? I meet someone I want to approach like, what, once a month or something? If you’re hitting on women and getting rejected on the daily, you’re probably doing so in a creepy, weird way. You’re not being rejected because you’re not an “alpha”, it’s because you’re a creep and a weirdo who no sane woman would ever want to fuck.

I also really enjoy how men’s rights activists never, ever consider that one great way to meet ladies is to try to make themselves more attractive to the people that they find attractive. Blasphemy! It’s so much easier to create a fictional social hierarchy in order to reinforce your self-pitying ways.

wtf
wtf
10 years ago

@Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant
I like the way you use a tragic incident about how women are still VERY CLEARLY more oppressed than men to trumpet men’s rights. WAHHH WOMEN DON’T TREAT MEN WELL. What the fuck?

Well guess what, men don’t treat women well either, you crazy piece of shit.

briget
briget
10 years ago

okay so if women as a whole are responsible for the women who did whatever it is that has the MRAssholes so pissed off, then men as a whole are responsible for the men who emotionally, physically, mentally and sexually abused me for 18 years.
note, I don’t believe that even close to all or even most men are abusive douchecanoes. I’m just trying to show how much that logic makes sense and why bardamu is plain flat out wrong and unacceptably misogynistic

dreamhouse
dreamhouse
10 years ago

@MRAL My first boyfriend had a congenital defect in one eye. He is a lovely man. We were together for 5 years and during that time he got hit on by men and women a fair bit. Why? Because he was kind, thoughtful, interested in other people and funny. Your ‘deformed eye’ isn’t the reason most women are rejecting you. I would guess that it’s because you come across as an angry and nasty person who assumes women shouldn’t be able to say no to you and if they do they’re a bitch anyway.

In my sexual history since then I’ve slept with a few people who have had similar physical characteristics. I was attracted to them because they were interesting, funny, kind, charming, compassionate etc. etc. Maybe if you want to improve your chances with women you could try to work on some of these characteristics.

ozymandias
10 years ago

I’m a woman who’s reasonably hot, and I’ve been rejected all over the fucking place.

Also, I’ve never fucked an alpha. Cute beta boys for me, plz. Actually, maybe omegas, given how I keep fucking virgins and all.

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

OK, I’ve got it. FSM help me, I actually understand what MRAL thinks is going on:

The Greek Letter Hierarchy thing is a conspiracy theory. All women are in on the conspiracy. The goal of the conspiracy is to limit access to high-level vagina (aka “bitches”) to an elite group of highly-attractive men. This conspiracy explains why low-level men like MRAL (aka “omegas”) are unable to have sex with high-level women, and are condemned to the sexual gulag of low-level women (aka “fat chicks”).

Since the conspiracy is being maintained by the world’s women, the only hope of ending it is for the MRM to overturn the secret gynarchy and create an egalitarian sexual utopia where hot babes are willing to bang non-hot men like MRAL.

How about it, MRAL? Have I figured it out? Is that how the world works?

ScareCrow P-Man
10 years ago

Rape – it sure does bring up the ratings doesn’t it Dave.

Did you buy one of those sex-robots yet?

ScareCrow P-Man
10 years ago

P.M.S. @Ozmandiadismam whatever.

If you are so “hot”, why no picture of yourself in your profile?

HA!

Lady Victoria von Syrus
Lady Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

MRAL, you never answered my question – how would MRA philosophy benefit a woman like Lara Logan?

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Well johnny, it’s not a CONSCIOUS conspiracy, but various social structures that form the situation. But you’re close enough.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

A mangina is just a male feminist/female supremacist. Manginas don’t necessarily have it great, it’s just they do if they’re alphas. Obama is successful because of his alpha status, not his mangina status.

Why do you think the MRAs labeled Schwyzer Public Enemy #1? He has actual power as an alpha (proving my system) and he’s used his alpha status to push his mangina agenda, which is diametrically opposed to the MRA ideology.

Leum
10 years ago

MRAL, have you left high school and college? I ask because your idea of who does and doesn’t get laid seems to have more grounding in high school society than college, and absolutely no grounding outside of either.