>MGTOW: Myth and reality

>Amused-I do not think they do any more anyway but in the 1950s and early sixties if my copy of "When Everything Changed" is anywhere near accurate, they certainly did.

>"The first one. Who's building the straw man now?"I wasn't talking about you personally. But you suggested a pretty broad definition of the extent to which it's beyond others' judgment to live one's life on one's own terms — up to and including blaming women for not being excited about living in poverty, cleaning up vomit, and being married to men who don't give a shit about them."This might have been true a few decades ago, but I really don't think the societal pressure is nearly as strong nowadays, at least from what I've seen for myself. In fact, people or groups espousing those beliefs today are more likely to be attacked by feminists and the general public alike. After years of "girl power!", some are even commenting that the balance has gone too far in the other direction – The Onion spoofed this back in 2003."It's less than it was, but it's still pretty strong. And while feminists may attack such conventions, any mention of a woman being strong and independent generally produces wincing in polite society. I don't know exactly what you mean by saying that the balance has gone too far the other way. A person's accomplishments, wants and desires shouldn't be dismissed as worthless on the ground that that gender isn't supposed to have them. If men don't want to be "success objects", then they shouldn't participate in cultural pressures that define a woman's success by her husband's."That hasn't been my perception either. In fact, I've had a female colleague comment to me recently that a guy who hasn't been in a serious relationship by a certain age is probably damaged goods. In her words, "if nobody wanted him so far, why would I want him now?"'In my experience you'll find a far greater number of people either assuring him that he will find "the right girl", or musing about how girls are so spoiled these days, they don't do whatever it takes to make a man call them girlfriends. Just because one woman isn't willing to bend over backwards doesn't mean women in general aren't still expected to.And by the way — her comment was reasonable. I don't know if she used the words "damaged goods" or you embellished a little there, but if a person — and that goes for men and women equally — has never been in a long-term relationship, it becomes more and more of a red flag with age. For all the grandstanding, people actually have a pretty strong drive to pair up on at least a semi-permanent basis. So if you meet someone who is 33 and has never dated anyone for longer than a month, that raises serious questions. Is he a closeted gay? Is he impotent? Does he have a sex drive so low, no one wants to be with him after the first time? Does he have weird sexual hangups or fetishes that drive people away? Is he a religious fundamentalist who will want proof of virginity at marriage and a baby every 18 months? Is he a political extremist? Does he have such an abominably awful personality that milk curdles and flowers wilt if he's in the same room with them? Is he so completely absorbed in his career and does he have a job so demanding that he isn't available except for 30 minutes a week? I'm sure that, unless he looks frighteningly ugly and/or smells like a week-old corpse, more women than not will give it a try and see for themselves. But some women will conclude that it isn't worth the time — and that's not an unreasonable conclusion. And, once again, the same holds true if the genders are reversed.Not exactly "changing herself to accommodate him", eh? Well, she's a rebel then. But your sarcastic comment supports my argument that there is still an expectation that women change to accommodate the default represented by a particular man.

>The dancing guy is, I believe, supposed to be Gordon. There are several different Top of the Pops performances of the song on Youtube, in case you want to see his band in different weird outfits. As for MGTOWers, and "changing oneself for marriage," as I've said before, MGTOWers DON'T just "go their own way." They swear off women, and then devote literally hours every day to attacking them online, calling them (much like Jilted John does) sluts and slags, and talking about how the only women that are any good are the supposedly submissive Asian women they fetishize, etc etc.

>David: Your musical knowledge is officially amazing.