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| Women in groups: Always trouble. |
One of the strangest places in the burly world of Men’s Rightsers and MGTOWers is The Spearhead’s Shieldmaidens forum. And no, I am not making that name up. It’s a forum, essentially, for women interested in being a sort of Women’s Auxiliary to a bunch of guys who are all about hating women.
Given that such a role – trying to help dudes who don’t much like you or your whole gender — is a bit of a tricky one, the forum moderator Hestia has written a long introductory post explaining just what new gals should and shouldn’t do to support their menfolk. It’s kind of a masterpiece of doublespeak. Let’s look at some of its highlights.
Hestia starts out by warning the ladies that these rough men sometimes talk in a rough manner:
As this is a male environment, us girls can expect styles of communication that we might not use ourselves or readily relate to. For the purpose of this post, I will call all of this “locker room talk”. … Topics and expressions women may find crude are likely to occur and generalizations about women (or white, western, whatever) used to adequately get a point across. These differences, while bothersome to some women, are not wrong in and of themselves and are not reason to shame men into expressing themselves differently. As women in the locker room, we are the ones who need to look the other [way] and make accommodations; not the men for whom this website is for.
In other words: the guys here may call you sluts and whores and worse, but really, that’s your fault for being here in the first place, so don’t complain.
Welcome aboard!
Hestia continues:
We must also respect this place as one of the few politically incorrect sanctuaries that men have in today’s misandrist world. … We should not be bullying men into saying, “yes, indeed not all women are like that!” to appease our own egos. … This is sacred male friendly ground and should be treated as such. … We are but guests on this website and must know our place and respect certain boundaries for the sake of the men here and for the work towards gender peace.
Hard to be more abject than this. So how have the menfolk responded?
It appears that not too many men actually read the Shieldmaidens forum, but among those who do, the reaction has been a little less than enthusiastic. Our friend GlobalMan, one of the more excitable Spearhead regulars, basically tells her (and all women) to fuck off entirely:
I have voiced my opinion many times women should be banned all together from here. They are contributing nothing and they are taking up a lot of time and energy of the stupid young men who do not realise that women are just attention whores who won’t actually do anything at the end of the day. ….You women pretty much fuck up everything you stick your nose into. And you never, ever tire of fucking things up for men under the delusion you have ‘something to contribute’. You don’t. Get over it. You pop out babies. That is your one and only ‘claim to fame’ and it used to be enough for a man to love a woman for her whole life and to provide for her and the kids. Now it is not. So you women need to ‘act like men’ and suck it up.Indeed. If women had any class at all you would leave of your own accord and let the men sort out what you refused to. The only posts from women here should be ‘Men, please tell us what to do’.
A fellow calling himself Diogenes offers his two cents:
That Hestia has to write this thread proves that indeed women who come to this board do exactly that which she complains against. They have such a cozy and male-coddled life that they are shocked when some men rightly express their scorn and foul language towards their attitudes and manipulative behaviour. Women BREED misogyny because all they do is constantly manipulate and get the attention and protection of men by trying to look sexy all the time. Every time a man turns his head towards a pretty lady, she knows she is being looked after and will be rescued by a man if ever her poor little ass does something stupid. They are CHILDREN at heart. One female college student mentioned to me how according to her “every girl” has gone on dates just to get free dinners. How much more proof do we need that women are NO GOOD WHORES?
I guess that’s some of the “locker room talk” Hestia was warning the ladies about.
Granted, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen the inside of a locker room, but I don’t remember much of the talk in the locker rooms I’ve been in revolving around the no-good whorishness of all women. I think that might be because most men are not in fact hateful assholes who think all women are NO GOOD WHORES.That’s just a theory though.
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>GinmarA couple of questionsDo you believe that foul language and calling people disparaging names, even if you disagree with their world view helps make the world a better place?Is this your blog? If not wouldn't it be better to leave telling people to leave to the owner of this blog?Do you believe that your comments are good representation of feminism for the non-ifeminists and non mra's that may (and do) look into this blog as being something funny, and also become educated on the horrors of the mra?
>It's not trolling; it's the fallacy of the golden mean.In Ion's case, it's trolling. He's clearly a misogynist, but he's pretending he's some dispassionate moderate who's neither feminist nor MRA. I mean, there are people who sincerely push for a "golden mean" position, I agree with that. But it's also a common facade for trolls to adopt.
>About T4T–he may not swear much, but his rank dishonesty is far more uncivil than 1,000 "fuck"s could ever be(Sally)Priceless.Thanks Ion. Do you have a blog?
>Kendra-they tend to view reality as a ceaseless war in which those who do not believe are enemies of their state. So killing others is not that big a deal because enemies should die during war.
>“A greater proportion of men than women of working age in the UK were in employment in 2008. In the second quarter of 2008 the employment rate was 79 per cent for men and 70 per cent for women, unchanged since 1999. The employment rates for men have been rising since the second quarter of 1971, levelling off in more recent years. Over the same period the female employment rates have generally increased, although almost half are part time jobs.”This stat and the other stat presented seem to be before or in the beginning of the recession. It would be nice to see a stat in 2011. Most jobs lost were by men in the labouring and manufacturing fields. The hard sweat shop jobs men do while women are mostly in luxury in their safe and aircon environments.That said, the unemployment rate Darkside presented is only a .1 percent difference. Holy fuck! That said, I guess most of the gender in hard labour and dangerous jobs compared to easier jobs must be the privileged after all. *yawn*"Most homeless individuals are male-families are usually headed by females"For one, where about in this source does it say this. Secondly, the point is that more males than females are homeless.If the tables were turned, feminists would be crying out oppression left, right, and centre. But when it's males, there's silence.Not to mention Most tax payer’s money goes towards women’s health compared to men’s.Billions of tax payer’s money goes towards women’s DV shelters, not men’s.Child custody in women’s favour.Women get taken more seriously in DV and rape claims.Women are likely to get more lenient sentences compared to men in the justice system.In most cases in a public stance, men get laughed at for expressing their issues while women get sympathy all around.More men die in work accidents compared to women as they are the ones expected to do the dangerous jobs that women are capable of doing.Males the more privileged class? My fucking ass.
>You know, there's no way to win with an MRA when it comes to employment stats. If more men than women are working, it's because the noble men are slaving away to support vicious harpies busy having other men's children. If more women than men are working, it's because they've shoved men aside and want all the power for themselves. That's because they don't actually have a reality based philosophy of life, they just adjust the interpretation of statistics to fit their preconceived notions of 'women = evil.'Currently, women initiate 70% of divorce, which only indicates to an MRA that she's only using her soon-to-be-ex husband for alimony and child support and never really loved him or wanted the marriage to work. If it were flipped around, and men initiated 70% of divorces, it would be that men were miserable to be saddled to nagging bitches and were finally freeing themselves from marital bondage. And if you really care about things like male victims of domestic violence, the suicide rate among men or the amount of homeless men – talk about them in and of themselves. Don't use them as cheap shots to try and support your case that feminists are awful people. These are actual, suffering men and they deserve your compassion and support – not to be used as a cheap trick to try and put a feminist in her place.
>Outside of breast cancer, what other female health care issues are given more funding? In fact, until about 20 years ago, most drugs/medical treatments/operations were geared towards males because no one thought about including women. Some research was done on female specific disorders but as a whole, nothing was done. Take the example of heart attacks-male symptoms are completely different then female symptoms. Males have a different reaction to treatments involving surgery then women do. That is one reason why in the US, the FDA now requires that researchers pay attention (not they do but they are required to) to the differences between the sexes.
>Women have more funding for DV shelters because they got together and organized. This is not something men are prohibited from doing or helping out with. However no one will tell you it will be easy.
>Child custody disputes are responding to the complaints about the "tender years doctrine" that awarded automatically custody to mothers (a reversal from when the Declaration of Rights and Sentiments called for women to be awarded custody since courts automatically gave them to fathers). Of course this does not mean that divorcing parents (mothers or fathers) will have an easier time of splitting custody."There are about 2.2 million moms in this country like Julie, moms who don’t have primary physical custody of their children. And the number of working moms who lose primary custody has been rising steadily." This country being the US.
>Men have NO reproductive rights. Don't even think of saying men have the right to not have sex, because after the man and woman have sex and conception takes place they BOTH could've not had sex but they chose to.Um… what?Men CAN use contraceptives before conception, stupid. WTF are you talking about? Do you mean abortion? Hey, I'm down with men having the right to get an abortion. I doubt they'll ever need to use it, since men rarely get pregnant, but sure why not?
>As for being laughed at for expressing male needs? When Representative Howard Smith added the amendment regarding women to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the laughter was so loud that it was noted in the Congressional Record. It took a long time and a hell of a lot of effort to change that perception. As Molly Ivins (she is funny read her) pointed out about Aunt Susan (B. Anthony): "When she started, God and Nature were assumed to be aligned in the subjugation of women."So stop using the fact that someone laughs at a man demanding to be heard on an issue he cares about as an excuse to do nothing. Because that is all it is.
>So stop using the fact that someone laughs at a man demanding to be heard on an issue he cares about as an excuse to do nothing. Because that is all it is. Oh great, now Elizabeth wants to take away our excuse to do nothing! Will our oppression never cease, my brothers?
>And finally, men die in higher numbers because of the choices they make.One thing they could do to stop it is unionize, make different risk assessments, and pay attention to safety manuals, tips and requirements.And Nick, treating women in the traditionally male dominated fields like crap tends to make them not want to work in the dangerous jobs. So get that to stop, and you solve the problem of more men dying then women. (Well probably not, women tend pay attention to instructions.)Sorry about the repeated posts David but it would not all fit in one.
>Have some bacon roses CB. Better?
>Wow…I'm speechless.
>Notwithstanding your wonderful takedown of that which passes for an argument from Nick, how much you want to bet that he'll be back tomorrow spouting the same old bullshit?
>I bet you bacon scented air freshener he will learn nothing and complain my links are too complicated and he is not going to bother reading any of it.
>I can sit here and refute all these ridiculous claims you zealots are making which pretty much all means "everything in the whole world is the men's fault"How sexist is that, huh?But there is no point as it will just get twisted once again to “it’s all the fault of the menz” I am wasting my time gathering up the research.The simple fact is that WHEN MEN DO TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, NO ONE LISTENS. THEY GET LAUGHED AT AND CALLED CRY BABIES AND MISOGYNISTS. THEIR MANHOOD GETS BELLITTED TO NOTHING AND THEY BECOME SOCIAL OUTCASTS. If that’s not the definition of “underprivileged”, tell me what is. People like Glenn Sacks with their supporters and others alike Glenn have protested about issues like DV in the past. Where did that take them? No where of course because it is about men’s issues. Yep, solely because it’s about men’s issues. It just get’s pulled under the rug. You privileged princesses get listened to while any complaint men make about male issues gets buried under the sand and laughed at.No wonder why nothing gets done about male issues. No wonder why many men don’t bother trying a battle that will never be won. Have you heard of the word “nymphotropism”? Yet, you femitards sit here and tell men it’s all their fault. How fucking oppressive and sexist is that?If I and a group of men started protesting in public to fix men’s issues, we would get laughed at and ridiculed. In other words, it would fall in deaf ears. Next thing, there would be anti-protesters hijacking the whole scene with “what about women who have it hard”…just like when the topic of male issues even comes up without a protest in place.Feminists are way too blind to see this or they do and totally ignore it for a justification of why these problems exists. It's as silly as me saying “well before tax payer’s money ever went to female DV victims, it's all the women's fault for why there wasn't any to begin with.In one equal and non-sexist society, instead of a female favoured society, one would think "Oh just because tax payers money goes to female victims, that means the same should apply to male victims" (without anyone actually shouting about it). But of course, in this so called patriarchal society, men's issues take a back seat…right at the very back of the bus. And yet, farting feminists still have the audacity to call it a patriarchal and male privileged society. Fucking laughable!If it was a male privileged and patriarchal society after all, one would think that such help for men would already be in place. Does that make you think?That said, it's fucking funny how feminists call anything…yep anything… in the world regarding to decisions that male politicians make as "patriarchy". Yet the female prime minister and the premier of QLD are both women. So that must mean that just because they make the major decisions in the society I live in, anything that goes wrong is the fault of” matriarchy”, right? Tell me how I am wrong?But wait, oh wait….my brain is going insane, how can this be? There is a double standard here. This type of standard can only apply when men make decisions in society that other men don't agree with. But when its women making decisions that other women and men don’t agree with, the accusation of "matriarchy” is a billion miles away.“Face palm”
>Nicko, why don't you do some research into suffragettes, first wave feminism, or the first women's shelters or rape crisis centers that were built. Learn about everything that went into making them happen, and really pay attention to all the men (and women) who opposed them. Whether you think these shelters are immoral or not is beside the issue, what's important is that you're able to grok the tremendous amount of sacrifice and struggle that went into those first groundbreaking programs and buildings. These brave people were not afraid of being called names, or being made social outcasts. They were not even afraid of being hurt, because they knew that their work was important. They were secure enough in themselves that namecalling wasn't a sufficient deterrent. They were committed enough to their cause that, no matter what they were threatened with, they kept going. They didn't throw up their hands and declare that it wasn't worth it because men just hated them too much. They didn't say that men were going to block them, so it was pointless anyway. No, they saw a job that needed to be done, and they did it. They knew it was hard, and thankless, and that they had no guarantee of success – but they knew they had to try. If you think that men need their own DV programs or centers or shelters, then go for it. Get your friends together and start organizing. But focus on the issue itself – don't continually drag feminism into it. If you really care about the plight of homeless men, or men who are the victims of DV, then no obstacle will be too big for you. You'll be so committed to the cause of making life better for suffering men that you won't have time to dwell on what the feminists are doing.
>Anyone interested in learning more about the bizarre phenomenon of sovereign citizenship should read Dave Neiwert's articles over at Crooks and Liars (such as this).
>Thanks Ion. Do you have a blog?Nah, sorry. I don't care enough about this stuff. It's more of a hobby. Like poking monkeys with a stick.
>'What's stopping you from identifying as a supporter?' (Sally Strange)Claiming the status of a feminist or even an ally can get you into tiresome and unproductive arguments. It's just a word, better leave it to people who have an unassailable claim to it. YMMV
>Lady Syrus – The rules for getting on a nuclear submarine are insanely hardcore and any extra weight needed to be carried on one is a "liability" and this is a world where a period pain is an incredible liability. Most nuclear submarines have at best a MO rather than a proper medical facility like on most ships. It's a world where women at the moment are not as good as men simply due to biology except in rare cases of women who have had the misfortune of needing a hysterectomy. And indeed the pill needs to get a lot lot better before we make it standard issue.
>Nicko…You are 10 times as likely to be abused as a woman than as a man.In male abuse, the majority of the attacks are in self defence. AKA the woman loses it and fights back. There are few genuine cases of male abuse. However you are fighting for the douchebags who abuse women and indeed regarding men who are abused not as victims but as compliant in it. I gave you an example of a field where there is a heavy domination of women at all stages. Nursing. If you want to improve male rights here is a good cause. Fight for more men to go into nursing to break the female stranglehold on a profession. Until then your mouth is filled with too much talk and not enough cock.Women's shelters! is your answer? Seriouly? There are more women abused than men by a huge factor. Having shelters aimed at them is perfectly fine. However what has your movement done to open more shelters? Have you opened a Man Shelter? Nope. Then you are just talking and not doing anything. Women's medicine exists as a separate genre because it was developed in secret and away from normal medicine because women were a lot more secretive about their bits during the early years. Men however have fewer issues with dropping their pants and showing off the goods and so medicine actually evolved around treating male illnesses. I don't need special training to deal with hydrocoele since that is taught as the medical base. Women's medicine is taught as a specific subject that you replace your norm with as and when required.
>You are 10 times as likely to be abused as a woman than as a man.In male abuse, the majority of the attacks are in self defence. AKA the woman loses it and fights back. There are few genuine cases of male abuse.These are indeed the popular beliefs but I've read some stuff recently that made me wonder how true they are. Could it be possible that many men who suffer abuse never report it for fear of being ridiculed and not taken seriously? Not to mention a police force and law system which almost always favors women in domestic violence cases? Not saying that violence against women doesn't exist, or that it's not serious, just that the picture might not be as one-sided as previously thought.