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| An Imaginary Feminist in action. |
There’s a great post up on The Pervocracy inspired by, well, some of the more lovable characters who frequent the comments section on this little blog – our resident antifeminists. As Holly notes, the feminists posting here devote much of their time (naturally enough) to arguing for feminism, while the MRA types, by contrast, tend to argue against an imaginary enemy that only bears a vague passing resemblance to actual feminism. Holly sets forth the tenets of this imaginary feminism, or IF, as she’s managed to glean them from the comments by MRA types here.
IF, she notes, is monolithic:
Anything said by anyone calling themselves a feminist can be assumed to be true of anyone else calling themselves a feminist. Some random thing Andrea Dworkin said in 1973 is tattooed on all IF’s chests backward so they can read it in the mirror. All IFs simultaneously subscribe to the beliefs of Valerie Solanas, Catharine McKinnon, Betty Dodson, Phyllis Schlafly, Twisty Faster, and that person who wrote those weird articles about Firefly.
Imaginary Feminists have no real grievances, are eager to take rights away from men, love shaming men, and are simultaneously sex-hating puritans and sex-obsessed sluts.
In other words, they are dastardly creatures indeed. If they really existed, I would oppose them too.
The post is hilarious and spot-on in its critiques. Well worth reading.
EDIT: Link fixed.
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>Shorter MRAs: "Nuh uh, you are!"
>Absinthe, good idea. I'll do that. Not that this will win over my critics; I've addressed the "cherry picking" charge repeatedly and quite a few of the MRA/MGTOWers who comment here have gone on repeating the same charge. But it would be handy to have a little link.
>Perhaps you should start wailing on whole posts. Bit harder to accuse you of cherry picking.Nick…There has been criticism of women.Fine… HEY FEMINISTS! Women routinely discriminate against men in the field of Nursing! What do you have to say for yourselves?(Psst! Hey men! Now start applying in greater numbers! The only way we can make stick it to the feminists is if we make moves too and stop calling nursing a woman's job!) Both sides aren't campaigning for this equality. Feminists aren't accepting that the field is indeed heavily skewed to women and men won't apply because the field is heavily skewed towards women. Men are not given equal opportunities despite claims that they are. So if you want to campaign, here you go. Here is a genuinely nice thing you can do for men and indeed for the entire field of nursing which could do with greater competition to encourage better nursing because competition would increase and thus quality. Everyone bloody wins.
>Yo Feminists!You fucked up when you…-refused to acknowledge the significance of biological differences between men and women for ideological, rather than scientific reasons. Turns out you were mostly right, but that doesn't excuse it. -ignored the differences between the experiences of white women and women of color, and excluded women of color from the movement. You continue to do so, in fact, though in lesser numbers than before. Much more remains to be done. -tried to maintain that transgendered women are not "real" women, thereby reinforcing the oppression that trans women face, as well as men. And this is no laughing matter; women face an elevated risk of sexual assault compared to men, but transgendered people are at an even higher risk, AND they are much more likely to be beaten or murdered. Criticizing feminists is easy, but not as easy as mocking the MRA movement.
>That should be "transgendered men," there, in the third bullet point. I was not talking about cis men.
>Re: men in nursingAcademic article abstract:The small but growing number of men in the nursing profession does not herald a progressive integration of masculine and feminine sex roles. The evidence presented in this paper suggests that even in female-dominated occupations such as nursing, patriarchal gender relations which reflect a high valuation of all that is male and masculine, play a significant role in situating a disproportionate number of men in administrative and elite specialty positions. At the heart of this gender dynamic is the need to separate the masculine from the lesser valued feminine. Male nurses do this by employing strategies that allow them to distance themselves from female colleagues and the quintessential feminine image of nursing itself, as a prerequisite to elevating their own prestige and power. They are aided in this task by patriarchal cultural institutions that create and perpetuate male advantage, as well as by women nurses themselves who, consciously or unconsciously, nurture the careers of men colleagues.
>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2648.1997.1997026226.x/abstractLink to the above-mentioned article
>For a person who starts a blog about sexism going in one direction and totally ignores sexism going the other direction truly has a lot to answer for. Ignorance and arrogance of one genders troubles and not the other is a classic example of feminist bigotry.Deny it all you want.Kinda like someone saying why isn't there tax payers money going towards male DV victims and then someone says it's because there are more female victims.That type of sexism is so damn blind.
>I love the way MRAs insist that womens' shelters are proof that women get treated with kid gloves. What they want is for women to build them shelters, even though men often objected to, fought, and made womens' shelters necessary. Where were MRAs then?
>I would call that entire article bollocks. Administrative jobs aren't really what people want to do after spending years cleaning up sick people. Working with male nurses and indeed having a friend who was one before he shifted to medical school, the issue is there is very little support for male nurses from the culture we are in. They gain their support from the ward porters rather than other nurses in a lot of cases. It's a negative gender role for men and is routinely treated both in public and by the staff themselves until extremely recently. Even today male nurses routinely bring back statements of bias. The university of Pensylvannia states the drop out rate for male nurses is nearly double that of women. Stories of discrimination abound and indeed the main protectors of male nurses have been male doctors. Many parts of the world prevent male nurses from working in gynaecology.This entire article regards stories of discrimination against men as "hearsay". By that logic we should have regarded the 1990s as a period when any woman complaining about discrimination as a doctor as hearsay too. The field is sexist and is biased against men. Women are fully capable of sexism too. It is a hostile work environment for men. Let's not beat around the bush. We have not encouraged men to take up the job and we have not taken their claims seriously. A lot of the world have restrictions on where and how Male Nurses can work. Infact the entire curriculum of nursing is aimed solely at women with literally no men's health being taught and men being often depicted as violent and aggressive.This is a genuine case of sexism against men as society as a whole regards the field to be a woman's job. If MRA's actively campaigned for Male Nurse equality I would give them some respect. The field needs review and men do require protection from sexism in the field. It's a genuine case for a place where we should encourage more men to join just like the various encouragements for women to join medical school were present in the 1990s. So far I have seen only a handful of male nurses being portrayed in a positive light. The idea is that nursing is so entrenched with gender that we male nurse has to be specified while no one in the west says "female doctor" anymore.
>For a person who starts a blog about sexism going in one direction and totally ignores sexism going the other direction truly has a lot to answer for. Ignorance and arrogance of one genders troubles and not the other is a classic example of feminist bigotry.Translation: David, you are a hypocrite for not believing our lies about how feminists hate men.
>Also, I claim geek points for recognizing the illustration as the cover art for Philip José Farmer's A Private Cosmos.
>I don't deny that many MRAs are violently misogynistic dumbasses, just as many radical feminists are violently misandric dumbasses. Prejudice and dumbassery know no gender. It's an unfortunate fact that the loud extremist minority often creates the group's image. But if you read the stuff from some of the movement's leaders, or a place like the Counter-Feminist, they're pretty articulate and have some real issues to talk about. This might be hard for some of the folks here, because in the feminist blogosphere, the slightest criticism of women or feminists is taken as "OMG MISOGYNY", but if you keep an open mind it might be helpful to see things from another perspective. As I said before, I don't consider myself an MRA, but from a cursory reading, some of their grievances include a family law system biased against men, police and courts which always demonize men and favor women in cases of domestic abuse, a non-existent support system for male victims of abuse, rape laws which seem to act on the principle of "guilty until proven innocent", an education system which favors women and minorities, and a few others which sound pretty legitimate, or at least worthy of discussion.re Discount: His comments were apparently deleted by the time I saw those threads, so I can't really comment on him. All I saw was a bunch of people attacking some non-existent person named Discount. But if he was indeed using curse words and hateful language, he shouldn't have been here. Now if only the feminists around here were held to the same standard…Finally, that Firefly article is hilarious. I really think somebody should show that to Joss Whedon. The guy is such a fem-worshipper, he'd probably have a conniption fit seeing what a woman thinks about his work. 🙂
>My previous post was aimed at Sally's article not David's!Joss Wheedon's work is based off Buffy which subverts a horror trope. That monsters prey on young women. Particularly vampires since the original trope is from Dracula who routinely attacks beautiful young women. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is awesome for that since the entire point is that vampires need saving from the pretty young woman rather than vice versa. The article by allecto is quite mental. Bear in mind you are allowed to be a crazy feminist as much as your are allowed to be a crazy MRA. She loses the premise of the show. It's Space Cowboys. It's a Shadowrun team. It's adventures in space. It's awesome. Some women want to grow up to be space cowboys. 1. Mal was the black woman's CO in a war. People refer to their CO's as Sir. Or else they get yelled at and made to do laps and push ups. (Or my personal favourite Spend All Day Saluting The Squirrels Tell They Learn Some Discipline!)2. Why should there be consequences to telling someone to shut up. In the future we hope to live in a world where we don't see the issue of saying shut up to a woman as an issue anymore. It's saying shut up. And why is her skin colour important in context of the show? 3. Prostitution as shown by Dr Brooke Magnanti is sometimes a job choice in young women. Forced prostitution is different from someone willing entering the contract. I wouldn't do it but I am not the liberated prostitute's target market. What feminists really don't like is Pimping and the author has lost the point where Inara is in control of her clients and holds "ALL" the power. Literally screwing around with the companions has bad repercussions. Also it's a famous trope from westerns. (The Hooker with a Heart of Gold) 4. Priests don't like prostitutes… Big Surprise there. Don't worry women get their own back when River destroys his holy book claiming "Plot Holes and Mistakes". 5. Jayne is the instigator of violence… not Mal. And Simon's badassery comes from being educated and smart. And his threats are deadly because they aren't obvious. Simon won't kill Jayne, Jayne will just receive inferior treatment. 6. A anti miscegenist feminist? There are plenty of black women who have had good relationships with white men. And if one recalls, Zoe's relationship with Wash ends really badly. I believe the author is black herself (She implies it). I think Wheedon would have a laugh at her. Primarily for co-opting A Rabbit Proof Fence as a black story (It's native Australian)The most insulting thing about the Firefly's writer is that she mentions the Rabbit Proof Fence as a viewpoint of black women. It's not… It's about the forgotten generation.
>I don't deny that many MRAs are violently misogynistic dumbasses, just as many radical feminists are violently misandric dumbasses. Prejudice and dumbassery know no gender. It's an unfortunate fact that the loud extremist minority often creates the group's image.Whoops! Right off the bat, false equivalence. What you meant to say was "most MRAs" and "a few radical feminists". BTW, who would you consider a nonradical feminist? And if you answer Sarah Palin, you FAIL.But if you read the stuff from some of the movement's leaders, or a place like the Counter-Feminist, they're pretty articulate and have some real issues to talk about.David's got The Counter-Feminist over there on the sidebar, so let's have a look. Ah, I see the header at the top describes the blog thusly:The female-supremacist hate movement called 'feminism' must be opened to the disinfecting sunlight of the world's gaze and held to a stern accounting for its grievous transgressions. Yeah, sounds like a place for articulate talk about real issues.This might be hard for some of the folks here, because in the feminist blogosphere, the slightest criticism of women or feminists is taken as "OMG MISOGYNY", but if you keep an open mind it might be helpful to see things from another perspective.You mean slight criticism along the lines of The female-supremacist hate movement called 'feminism'? Sounds like a pretty helpful perspective to me.As I said before, I don't consider myself an MRAI just sound exactly like one.but from a cursory readingThere, see! Proof that I'm not an MRA! I hardly know anything about the MRM! I've just given it a cursory reading! I am totally objective! No sir, no hidden agenda here!some of their grievances include a family law system biased against menWaaaaah! I don't wanna pay child support! Waaaaaah!police and courts which always demonize men and favor women in cases of domestic abuseYer honor, the bitch was askin' fer it!a non-existent support system for male victims of abuseWhich I propose to remedy by eliminating the support system for female victims of abuse, thereby leveling the paying field.rape laws which seem to act on the principle of "guilty until proven innocent"Yer honor, the bitch was askin' fer it!an education system which favors women and minoritiesWhich explains the gender pay gap. And also the racial pay gap.and a few others which sound pretty legitimate, or at least worthy of discussion.The female-supremacist hate movement called 'feminism' must be opened to the disinfecting sunlight of the world's gaze and held to a stern accounting for its grievous transgressions.
>re Discount: His comments were apparently deleted by the time I saw those threads, so I can't really comment on him. All I saw was a bunch of people attacking some non-existent person named Discount.True.But if he was indeed using curse words and hateful language, he shouldn't have been here.True.Now if only the feminists around here were held to the same standard…Say, Ion, have you noticed all the feminists on this blog who say things like "I'm gonna track you down and beat you to a pulp, motherfucker! I'm gonna cut off your fucking cock and stuff it down your fucking throat, motherfucker!" No? Guess why? It's because everybody on this blog is held to the same standards! Once again, you got the false equivalence thing goin' on, in this case equating criticism and mockery (which is what I'm doing now), with hateful language (as per my example above). I'm going to assume you can see the difference, and if you say you don't, I'm going to assume you're lying.Finally, that Firefly article is hilarious. I really think somebody should show that to Joss Whedon. The guy is such a fem-worshipper, he'd probably have a conniption fit seeing what a woman thinks about his work. 🙂wev
>Avicenna,It seems to me that the lower numbers and possible discrimination of men in nursing (and probably fields like teaching and childcare) stem a lot from the old stereotype that women are just naturally more nurturing and caring than men. If we get rid of that pervasive stereotype, it benefits both men and women. Men will be free to be nurturing and caring and not feel like it's a threat to their masculinity, and women will be free to not be nurturing and caring without being called a bitch.
>Hey Johnny – that quote you keep repeating from the Counter-Feminist… it might sound extreme, but when looking at places like this, I begin to understand why that sentiment exists. You've illustrated that quite thoroughly in your reply, which was basically "Your issues aren't important, so I'll just mock and dismiss them". Serves me right for trying to be serious for once. You foster and encourage hate, and then when they get hateful, you skillfully play the victim. You don't want a discussion, you just want to be right, and for them to be wrong. But, hell, look where I am: on a blog dedicated to making fun of another group. If that's not hate, I don't know what is.
>Ion was being serious? Could've fooled me. His arguments sound more like, "Feminists are all a bunch of hypocrites! If they weren't, they'd agree with everything I say, even the fact that they're all hypocrites!"
>Ion – This blog isn't exactly about "making fun" of another group. For the most part, David doesn't pull quotes that sound silly; he pulls quotes that sound hateful and scary.And then all the MRAs coming on here to argue say "you're being mean to MRAs," but they never seem to say "you're being mean to MRAs, because we actually respect women!"
>@AmnesiaTeaching I cannot comment on, same for child care (I believe the issue of paedophilia is what makes childcare in men such a charged issue)But Nursing is something I am familiar with. If Men's Right's mattered to their movement they would be ranting about how they want to change that. (My point being that they don't really care about actual men's rights. They would refer to these Male Nurses as Murses and Betas and how they are weak because they do such as job.)Ion, if you noticed I actually brought up a valid case of sexism aimed at men that the MRAs don't care about. MRA's have a lot to make fun of. Their Going Rand plan. Their ludicrous reasons to hate women. Their lack of an understanding of simple statistics. Their racism. Would you like us to seriously destroy their viewpoints? It does not make for good blogging sadly.
>Screw it. I said I'm not an MRA, so I'm not gonna start defending them now. Especially not in a place like this, where it'd be as effective as talking to the KKK Grand Dragon about racial harmony. Post deleted.
>"Would you like us to seriously destroy their viewpoints? It does not make for good blogging sadly. "I think you would if you could. You resort to simple-minded insults and mockery precisely because that's all you are capable of doing. 🙂
>Most of the "simple-minded insults and mockery" are direct quotes.And like I keep saying and still hasn't been adressed by anyone, no one ever says "I don't agree with that quote," they just say "you're being a meanie pants using that quote."
>MRA's have a lot to make fun of.(Avicenna)You bet they do. Many of them are also very hateful and violent. I think part of the challenge is if someone agree's in part with some of what they say, they then get labeled MRA and ultimately get shouted down and insulted(my experience on here). Ion has some good points, many feminists have good points. Neither side has all the answers. I personally dont think its going to be solved by the MRA's or feminists. Until there is a harmonized voice the abuse and violence will continue,on both sides, regardless of who does it more.