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| MRAs: Bigger Drama Queens than Batman |
Drama queens: so annoying, but so, so entertaining. Tammy Wynette, singing about failing marriages with that little choked-up quiver in her voice. Chris Crocker, begging us to “leave Britney alone!” Emo kids whining about whatever it is they’re always whining about. Cats, being cats.
And, of course, Men’s Rights activists, seriously in the running for biggest drama queens of all.
Over on A Voice For Men, guest blogger “Tom Snark” recently wrote about a little incident in his life in which he heard the woman who lived next door to him yell at her husband because she didn’t like the way he was trimming some branches.
Not much of a story, you’d think. But Snark, showing considerable ingenuity, stretched it out into a 1200 word post. The woman didn’t just yell; she “yapp[ed] at him like a menopausal Chihuahua.” The man wasn’t just embarrassed to have a neighbor overhear the exchange; he
know[s] that their facade of marital bliss was now forever shattered in my mind. … Is this his terrible secret, hidden from the world: that he is continually disrespected behind closed doors, by the very woman who said to him “I do”?
Needless to say, Snark answered this question with a resounding “yes.” And then decided that all marriages are like this — ultimately concluding that the women of the world are quite literally nagging their hubbies to death:
One needlessly stressful incident after another is sure to raise the blood pressure. But actually living with a person who does this, combined with the stress of full-time work five days a week? The origin of the life expectancy gap [between men and women] becomes clear.
Never mind that married men actually live longer than unmarried men, as approximately two seconds of Googling will show. Snark was just getting going:
marriage has no benefit at all for men. It is not even a stretch to say that, in this day and age, marriage is systematically abusive for men. While women can up and leave at any time they like, with minimal resistance from the law, family courts, or society as a whole (we continue to suffer from Eat, Prey, Love syndrome) – men cannot leave women without paying the price.
Yes, he did say “prey,” not “pray.” But wait, there’s more:
Married men are literally trapped, stuck supporting the poisonous predators that will eventually kill them. Plenty of women know this; perhaps this is why they are so keen on the idea. A little legal tweaking was all it took for feminists to remake marriage in their own image: men are now the dehumanised tools for women’s personal use. Sex roles have not simply been reversed, because men continue to do most of the work. What has changed is that the paycheque is now handed directly over to the wife, and his time at home will be spent completing endless ‘honey-do’ lists.
Oh, the terrible tyranny of the “honey-do” list! Hitler had nothing on these foul shrews and their endless branch-trimming demands!
Now, I don’t mean to make light of verbal abuse. It happens, and it’s real abuse. I once had a neighbor, an elderly Italian man, who was continually yelling at his wife. Most of it was in Italian, so I don’t know exactly what he was saying, but every sentence or two was punctuated by what was evidently his favorite English word, “asshole,” a word he delivered with so much contempt it was chilling. In between these verbal barrages, I could hear his wife softly responding, trying to placate him. I don’t think he physically abused her – he was in a wheelchair – but this verbal abuse was constant. I doubt there was a single day I didn’t hear it. Had I known then what I know now, I would have called the police.
But not every overheard argument is a sign of abuse. Snark has heard one nasty exchange in the ten years he’s lived next to this couple – and he’s concluded from this one data point not only that his neighbor is being abused but that virtually all married men are prisoners to “poisonous predators [who] will eventually kill them.”
Naturally, the regular commenters on A Voice For Men found this conclusion eminently reasonable. Indeed, in one heavily upvoted comment, Barbarossaaa managed to out-queen Snark’s already impressive drama queenery:
All one has to do is to observe these married men, i mean really look at them… dont let them catch you looking, observe the married man is his natural habitat, and if you look close you can see the dulled eyes of a man simply waiting to die.
he is the fly caught in the spider web, that has accepted its fate and stopped struggling. he now waits for the black widow to climb down and consume him slowly but surely…this is not freedom it’s subtle servitude … you are dancing her dance, she is the initiator you are the reactor, and SHE decides whether you pass or fail she is in complete control.
Yes, married men are all dead-eyed puppets in the hands of their evil wives. When I read this last bit, I couldn’t help but think of this little scene in Ed Wood’s perplexing bad-movie masterpiece Glen or Glenda, in which Bela Lugosi, himself a drama queen of considerable ability, shouts out “pull the string!” for no apparent reason:
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>Discount – I am. I'm in a big picture where men and women are capable of happy sexual relationships and happily doing things that have nothing whatsoever to do with sex or gender. Obviously not everyone is happy-happy, but some people are, and definitely not everyone is caught up in all-consuming gender-based power struggles. It's kind of a nice place to be.'Cept there are some assholes.
>Generally this involves bludgening each others heads in, tearing each other into tiny pieces, shooting each other and the like. Wow…I guess I've been doing it all wrong.
>Discount is basically an embodiment of all the jokes we've made about MRAs. "You just resent women because you desire them and can't always have them," we say, never dreaming they'd just respond, "Well, yes," as Discount has here. "You just wish YOU could have a uterus," we say. "Indeed," says Discount. I am so bookmarking this page. You know, for the next time some asshole says, "Oh you're just exaggerating about MRAs."
>And I really do think, as long as we're talking fantastical dystopian (or utopian, if you share Discount's perspective) scenarios, that if female privilege truly consists of sex appeal, then the only true way to achieve equality would be to force the entire male population to endure chemical castration. Once they no longer desire sex with women, they will no longer be at the mercy of those heartless harridans. Très simple, non?
>I am still stuck on "just order and a hot woman will send you her eggs." He has no idea how hard it is to harvest human eggs nor how difficult replacing the human placenta is. And I also think that Discount is several different people satirizing MRAs lack of logic, coherency and lunacy.
>Poe's Law springs to mind.
>Elizabeth, I think it might be a bit like Poe's Law. There's a certain point where you just can't tell the parody from the real without someone just telling you "yeah, I'm pulling your leg"."On top of that, he assumes other men would want this. I guess this is what happens when you spend all your time on MGTOW and MRA forums. You start to really believe their "tomorrow the world" brand of propaganda."Captain Bathrobe, I'm sure it's that plus the "married people are miserable because I NEED them to be miserable!" thing I mentioned earlier. I could honestly believe that seeing happy couples would either cause him to deny that they were REALLY happy or fling him directly into a teeth-grinding rage.
>Come on, ladies, don't you feel sorry for the horrible burden men bear? Historically, they've been forced to take everything in the world–all the land, all the money, all the freedom and human rights–just to impress us! They hate owning all that stuff, but they HAVE to, because if they let us have just a tiny bit, they'd have no way of purchasing sex from us! And that's what makes modern society so hard for men: they still have most of the stuff, which is just so very painful, but they don't have ALL the stuff, so they can't force us to bang them on command! It's the worst of both worlds!Meanwhile, it's great being a woman, because all women are gorgeous 18-year-old blonde millionaires with huge tits who can easily manipulate men into giving them stuff (and obviously the person who can sometimes convince a guy to give her stuff is richer than the guy who OWNS THE STUFF), and none of us are old or ugly or gay or unfeminine or socially awkward EVER. I'm sorry; I was out of the country for a week*, and getting back to this site and the bizarre alternate realities presented therein is always something of a culture shock. How do you live in America in the 21st century and claim not to know any women with jobs? Aside from moms who are taking time off to raise kids, does anyone here know any women who *don't* have jobs?*And in an economically depressed country, which is, I'm given to understand, where all the hottest women live. I apologize for not bringing back a shipment of subservient, exotic, stupendously feminine concubines skilled in secret sexual techniques, since every woman I met was of exactly this description, and they talked of nothing but how much they hate equality (but only briefly, and then apologized for wasting time when men could have been talking). I had some room in my suitcase, but I filled it with retsina instead.
>After this thread, I could use a little retsina. Care to share?
>Wow. Discount. It sounds like you've completely lost control of what you're saying, to the point where you no longer have any point at all to prove except "GRRR WOMEN," to which I admit I have no rebuttal….and no explanation.
>Well we can always simply overpower and rape this cunt of yours you seem to prize so much."We"? Discount: no longer Schrodinger's rapist.Call it envy or what have you it doesn't matter. …because it's true. You said so yourself. By the way, I deleted my comments.This seems to imply that you agree with my assessment that other people would view your comments as reflecting negatively on the MRA movement. Why? What's wrong with what you said? No way in hell would I let a bitter and disgusting cunt use anything I said to boost the ego of other cunts. It's back to offensive mode for you cunt.As if you have some other mode. It is to laugh.
>And now Discount has gone into full melt-down mode. Observe, my friends: the Pharyngula-patented method of dealing with Troll infestations: feed them until they explode like that guy in Monty Python's "Meaning of Life.
>Discount, you're not even saying anything any more. You've completely sunk to the level of "WOMEN ARE BAD THINGS OF A BADNESS AND THEY MAKE BAD." It's a little frightening, but it's not meaningful. It's not something up for debate between adults.It's a whoooole long way from here to fathers' custody rights and scholarships for boys, isn't it.
>Hey, Discount, guess what? The power to give men boners isn't all it's cracked up to be, you need not covet it.And stop being such a douchebag, a troll, and/or a spambot.
>@Captain BathrobeThat seems to be a case of a complete breakdown in the visitation rights, in that he challenged her legally. The issue is that all that wastes a lot of time and money. There is no "Visitation Police" like there are "Child Support Police" (If your payments are late you get chased up, if your visitations are not allowed there is little recourse but to lawyer up and hope you get the decision to go your way). It's a big waste of time and a big waste of money for something that could have been simply policed as a phone call telling the misbehaving parent to "knock it off". @Discount Traditionally women were expected in the west to not do those jobs because they are weak fragile flowers. In a lot of the east, roads and buildings are built by female labourers and brick layers. How come you didn't say nurses? That is an area of work where men aren't provided as many opportunities as women and where there is active gender bias for women. That would be a great campaign. If you wanted to fight for "Men's Rights" dress up as nurses and march! Fight for the right for men to be nurses on an equal stage as women. Affirmative action CAN BE YOURS.Oh wait, you won't. Because you think that is a "woman's job"
>Eh, Avicenna, I think you're being a bit generous when you refer to what goes in inside Discount's head as "thinking."
>"This seems to imply that you agree with my assessment that other people would view your comments as reflecting negatively on the MRA movement. Why? What's wrong with what you said?"Nope. There was nothing negative in my comment. I was speaking about male feelings, vulnerability and female privilege and as you said so your self, you plan to use this to harm myself and men. It won't happen again.
>Oh, it was your precious, sensitive, vulnerable fee-fees that made you threaten me with rape? Uh huh. "WHAT WHAT?? I NEVER THREATENED YOU WITH RAPE! HOW DARE YOU–"You did. You said, "We (you have a rapist mouse in your pocket?) can always simply overpower and rape this cunt of yours you seem to prize so much."I'm not interested in considering the precious fee-fees of a would-be rapist. If you prefer not being considered as a potential rapist then I would suggest not making such comments in the future.
>@SallyFine… The wheels are spinning but the hamster is dead! You aren't speaking for men Discount. You are speaking for a subsect of men who believe that women are the source of their bad fortune. I admit I have had bad experiences with women too. I ended up supporting a woman who I thought was pregnant with my kid when I was in pre-med. She quickly realised what "being a medical studnet wannabe" means (Hint, your family comes second) and only managed to leave after the baby was born (Not mine. I was so angry I handed the kid over to the nurse. Swore at the woman in question, swore at my friend who set us up and stormed off. I was insanely angry. As I should be. No woman or feminist will state that I was wrong to leave her. I had every right to be angry.I have supported a few of your view points particularly the ones that state that there is an issue with the lack of visitations linked to child support and custody rights, however most of your points are madness and about the superiority of men. We live in a world where brain and skill with your hands matters. And women are quickly catching up in that aspect.Your major gripe with women is that you are incapable of treating them as equals.
>Avicenna, in my experience as someone who works in a court-judges get really really annoyed with someone disobeying an order they have issued. And they may order the mother to not only comply but toss her butt in jail if she fails to do so (that happened in this one epic case of a guy who knocked up one lady who was, shall we say, disturbed? and knocked up that lady's cousin, and married a third.) None of the people involved even really considered what this was doing to the child and that was more aggravating then anything else. The disturbed lady tried to play all of the tricks but since the family court judges get to know pretty well the people involved, she was getting away with none of it.
>We live in a world where brain and skill with your hands matters. The world has always been thus, otherwise we would not have brains so large that giving birth is a major cause of mortality for women. And women are quickly catching up in that aspect.Excuse me, catching up? I think you may want to rephrase that.
>In the sense that women are finally catching up in realising that they too can use their hands rather than having to sit at home and do the house work. You have to realise that where I currently live the biggest oppressors of women are the older generation of women courtesy of an ingrained culture of both men and women stating that women cannot be the same things that men are. Catching up in this case implies that women are realising that they can do the same things as men as a whole. Not as a handful of women who achieve things while the rest quietly nod and go back to the old ways like in India or China. Hell they had a female Prime Minister and they still think that women cannot achieve anything.
>Your major gripe with women is that you are incapable of treating them as equals.Avi, you have succeeded in distilling the MRA worldview into fifteen simple words. My hat is off to you.
>@Avicenna, you are wrong that police do not deal with this, denial of a court ordered visitation order can legally constitute, not just contempt like failue to pay support (though it can be that), but kidnapping in some jurisdictions. So, yes, the potential penalties for denial of court ordered visitation are every bit as high, and sometimes much higher, than refusal to pay support. Where there is a court order, denial of visitation cases have an incredibly high success rate in regards to equities (such as obtaining primary custody or a contempt charge against the other party). Captain Bathrobe is actually citing a rather typical case. On the other hand, child support cases, where the party seeking the support is the one acting, have an incredibly poor sucess rate in regards to timely relief. It is usually cases of state mandated payments in regards to welfare where actual incarceration and high penalties cases occur. The issue is that many parents do not seek custody and that many parties have private agreements rather than court orders. If there is no court order, the means of action against the person who refuses visitation is far more limited. However, this is also the case where there is no court order for support. Many states will allow no collection of back child support at all if there was no court order (or, in some jurisdictions, a written contract between the parties outlining support). While you are right that women are primary caretakers are much, much higher rates, women tend to be the caretakers in non-disputed custody arrangements in extremely high numbers (estimates of the amount of divorce with agreed custody rather than disputed is above 90%). There really is no good evidence of a consistent favoritism towards women in disputed custody cases across regions.
>Yeah, Sally, how dare you threaten to quote Discount in context! The threat of rape is as nothing to the threat of being exposed as a colossal douche bag. HOW DARE YOU, I say. Seriously, though, guys like Discount are reason enough for decent men to shun the MRM. Virtually all of the MRAs I've interacted with on this site are just ever-so-slightly toned down versions of Discount. The only difference is that his rage is closer to the surface.To paraphrase the inimitable Helen Hunt: Go sell crazy somewhere else, Discount. We're all stocked up here.