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misogyny MRA oppressed men the spearhead

>Female action heroes: An abomination

>

Most 12-year-old girls are not superheroines.
One of my favorite dopey complaints from the Men’s Rights crowd is that action movies featuring ass-kicking women are “unrealistic” because real women are too dainty to do all that ass-kicking shit. On The Spearhead today, W.F. Price aims his withering contempt at the new film Hanna: 
The ass-kicking chick flicks are getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on. In “Hanna” a girl is raised by her father to be a vicious killer somewhere in the arctic. Hanna is played by Saoirse Ronan, an Irish girl with a sweet smile who looks about as tough as a bunny rabbit. Nevertheless, we are supposed to suspend disbelief and accept that this waif is capable of breaking necks with a single blow.
Even worse, in the trailer for the film, young Miss Ronan is depicted doing … pull-ups!  “In general, women can’t do pull-ups,” Price complains, “and the vanishingly few who can don’t look much like Saoirse Ronan.”
Price does have a point. Real women can’t do the things that female action heroes do in films. Angelina Jolie may be a deeply scary woman, but I’m pretty sure she can’t take out entire boats full of trained assassins by herself, or jump from truck to truck on the highway to escape pursuers in cars, as she did as super seekret double (triple?) agent Evelyn Salt. Also, to the best of my knowledge, Sarah Michelle Gellar has never really slain even a single vampire. And there is no such thing as an indestructible cheerleader.
But here’s the thing, guys: All that crazy shit that male action stars do? Real men can’t do that either. Matt Damon is pretty buff, and I’m pretty sure he could take Angelina Jolie in a fight, but he’s not actually Jason Bourne. Christian Bale doesn’t put on a batsuit at night and run around town taking out baddies with his bare – well, gloved — hands. Toby Maguire can’t swing from building to building, or stick to walls; if he were bitten by a radioactive spider, he’d need to go to the hospital. Arnold is not the Terminator.
Also, and I hate to be the one who has to break this to you, guys: professional wrestling is fake.
I know it might be tough to take all this in, guys, so here’s Captain Kirk fighting a very slow-moving alien monster on planet Not-Very-Far-From-The-Studio. Kirk has a little trouble with this one but in real life, I’m pretty sure William Shatner could take down an alien monster, provided it moved as slowly as this one.

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the “Share This” or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it.

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

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Amnesia
9 years ago

>@T4TEven in areas where women outnumber men, the men are often held in higher regard.For example, I play in a handbell choir. The vast majority of handbell players are women, but if you go to a Handbell Festival, most of the people you see directing large groups or teaching classes are men. You don't see the reverse happening at gaming conventions, where both the majority of attendees and the majority of people in charge/holding panels are men.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>It's more of a case of people don't understand that support roles are not direct combat but often are fired at and are involved in combat situations by the nature of warfare.Partially. But our culture has a lot of narratives about men in support roles who suddenly step up and do something heroic – one example being Doris Miller, a cook on the USS West Virginia who manned an AA gun during the Pearl Harbor attack. AKA Cuba Gooding, Jr. from the Michael Bay movie…Anyway, people seem less inclined to admire such stories when they're about women.

ginmar
9 years ago

>People see inclined to run away from stories about women warriers, really. There's a truly nasty vein in conservative circles, disparaging Jessica Lynch and either heavily suggesting that all women in uniform are like her, or outright saying it. Yet they don't do this to the men who got injured and captured. They were a poorly-trained maintenance company who hadn't had any special training in combat arms since basic, they took a wrong turn and came under withering fire, and a lot of these assholes go after Lynch, who's never been anything but blunt about how she's not a hero or stuff like that. Poeple like Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester—they're a footnote. So are all the soldiers, sailors, Marines and airman who serve and do so professionally and valiantly. There are few if any commercials that depict them coming home.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>I gotta say there's some hilarious posts on this blog. Here's what I learned from this discussion so far:- women are better than men at most physical, athletic tasks, and the only reason they don't compete against men is because the men don't want to, because they would feel inferior- butt-kicking action girls are totally fine because it's just a movie and it's not supposed to be realistic anyway, oh but a woman could totally kick guys' asses if she wanted to- ginmar is a very angry person with psychological issues- this whole blog seems to be dedicated to reading MRA boards, taking random quotes, and smugly criticizing them.In other words, par for the course for the feminist blogosphere, I'd say. 🙂

ginmar
9 years ago

>Imagine, a woman getting angry at sexist assholes like you, who can't read, don't listen, and hate women? Why, that's crazy talk! It's like a black person getting angry at racist language. How dare they? Listen up, ladies, some loser wants us to use even smaller words, which he won't listen to anyway and afterward will just cling to his sexism anyway, because if women don't like him it's their fault, not his. So refreshing. Haven't heard this from MRAs at all.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>Are you for real? You should be in an action movie yourself, you are just adorable. Your superpower would be going on angry rants and snapping at people. You got it one day while attending an Alanis Morrisette concert and being bitten by a radioactive feminist. Or maybe it was a raccoon. We don't know, it's the mystery of the movie!

ginmar
9 years ago

>Oh, Christ, do MRAs ever develop new tactis? Anger, rabid, labeling of some figure as being nuts, crazy, rabid—-that figures a lot in their litlte fantasies—and they can't understand why women don't take them seriously. Ion's latest girlfriend must have sprung a leak. /As he's proven he's a typical lying MRA, that's it for me.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>Weird, every time I had enough of a feminist's nonsense and announced I was leaving, they'd triumphantly call it a 'flounce' and take it as a sign of victory. Maybe I should do the same? Nah. But don't go, I have the first part of the script for you!SCENE 1 – Outside a Sleazy Bar, Nighttimeginmar: What do you mean I'm getting kicked out! This is a blatant example of the patriarchy keeping a woman down! I swear you'll pay for this!!!Bartender: Sorry lady, no more drinks until you pay your tab. You want me to call you a cab or what?ginmar: OOOH, sure, I'm just a helpless woman who can't call her own transportation! Good thing there's a strong man here to take care of me! Isn't that right? You make me sick! *vomits on sidewalk*Bartender: What? Look, I just meant you're in no condition to drive and-ginmar: Spare me your -BLEARGH- mansplaining! -ARGLBL- You sexist *cough* *cough* small-dicked *hack* bingo card *splutter* MRAs *cough* loser!Bartender: Whatever, lady. You're on your own. *walks back inside*ginmar: That's right, you're just another loser who can't handle a strong woman like me! Ughh… now where did I park… *smacks into streetlamp* Aha! A phallic symbol placed here by the patriarchy to oppress women! I'll get you too, don't you worry *stumbles away, muttering*more tomorrow if I don't get banned 🙂

triplanetary
9 years ago

>Ion, coming into a feminist space, acting like an obnoxious twit, and then telling the people who don't tolerate your bullshit to chill out is nothing new. At least bring something new to the table: Manboobz already has twenty trolls just like you.And you won't get banned. David doesn't really moderate the comments here. Sometimes I wish he did – Discount has a penchant for rendering comment threads not worth reading. But it's his blog and his choice.

ginmar
9 years ago

>DAvid, I think that's pretty much beyond the pale. Can you ban this motherfucker? Ion's ability to create such bullshit makes you realize how rotten he is at listening to women. I bet he's really shitty at hearing and abiding by the word 'no'. He certainly creates shit out of whole cloth and lies, and that makes me wonder just what he does to women in real life.

ginmar
9 years ago

>DAvid, you and the other guys here might find this shit amusing but keep in mind, us women have to deal with shit crap every day. By letting these assholes run roughshod over the women, you're crossing a line from observing to enabling. It may be entertaining to you…..but you don't get it every day.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>"acting like an obnoxious twit, and then telling the people who don't tolerate your bullshit to chill out"…huh? Where did I say that? I made a couple of comments, ginmar frothed herself up into a frenzy over them, responded with a bunch of insults that were pretty random and didn't even seem addressed to me, and here we are.But seriously, whoever's moderating should consider this: ginmar and a few others have been using abusive language, sarcasm and unprovoked insults and attacks throughout the entire comments section. Now that someone else posted something she doesn't like, she is screaming for them to be banned – and even using the 'save us poor women from this abuser' line, which is dishonest if hilarious, because 1) what am I really doing? and 2) she and her cronies had no problem dealing out the abuse earlier. Banning me at this point would indeed be the way things work on most feminist groupthink blogs, but I'm hoping this one is different. I'll stop now because I don't do thread derails. Just remember… if Dave strikes me down, I will become stronger than you could possibly imagine! I'll be creating shit out of whole cloth and lies! ROFL

ginmar
9 years ago

>"..huh? Where did I say that? ….a couple of comments frothed herself up….. a frenzy….insults that were pretty random ….abusive language, sarcasm….unprovoked insults and attacks….screaming…dishonest….hilarious…cronies…..abuse groupthink….." So to Assnugget here, he has nothing to do with what someone 'does to herself.' Here's him, not doing anything to anybody: …..for real?…adorable. Your superpower….angry rants…..snapping….attending an Alanis Morrisette…..being bitten by a radioactive feminist…. raccoon……."This is what an MRA thinks is okay and fair—-as long as it's not directed at him. He appears to have some filter in what passes for a brain, translating everything into standard MRA tropes. He comes into a feminist space, throw around insults and lies, then whines that people are being meeeeeeeeeeean to him. He refuses to acknowledge that his behavior has been shitty—but he thinks it's acceptable for him to criticize responses to it. This is almost as good—-and as blatantly obvious—as when Cold declared that child support was worse than rape.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>So here we have it. It is MY fault because I was born MALE. Off the rails, right away. Listen you fucking halfwit, did I say anything about FAULT? No, 'calling it even' bit referred to your apparent contention that since LEGAL oppression is a thing of the past, mostly, at least in the developed world, that there's no more inequality. Therefore equality. Therefore things are "even." Egad you are stupid. It seems to me that is the same thinking that let's Christian's think were all born of shit because of Adam and Eve. It seems that way to you because you don't have two brain cells to rub together. I will go out on a limb here and point out that odd's are you have never been denied the right to vote or denied access to education or prevented from buying property or fucking anyone you desire. Maybe your grandmother, or great grandmother. But YOU personally, highly unlikely if you grew up in the west. As far as being oppressed or abused goes, why dont we share some stories and see if were on equal footing in that regard. Golly, you sure showed me. Wait, what? Yeah, just another example of T4T's pathetic comprehension skills. What were we talking about again? The distinction between LEGAL discrimination that is WRITTEN INTO LAW, and cultural discrimination which is the result of centuries of accumulated cultural attitudes, stereotypes, and beliefs about gender. You are saying that since there's no legal discrimination, there's equality. That's an obviously stupid position to take. I mean, if it were true, how can you possibly explain the Civil Rights Movement? Ion, if you can't take it then don't dish it out. Nobody's going to strike you down… unless you count your own assholishness as a "somebody."

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Let me just highlight this little piece of idiocy from T4T:As far as being oppressed or abused goes, why dont we share some stories and see if were on equal footing in that regard. He really WANTS to play the Oppression Olympics. He probably even thinks he'll win! He thinks its POSSIBLE to win the Oppression Olympics. Sorry idiot loser, nobody wins and everyone loses when people get into a pissing match about who has it worse. And that's what makes the MRA movement so completely utterly deluded: it amounts to a massive attempt to win the Oppression Olympics. "Don't compare! All suffering is intolerable." –Elie Wiesel

Amnesia
9 years ago

>The MRAs keep coming like a moth to a light.

ginmar
9 years ago

>Only way they get attention from women—-it's not like their shitty perception skills would make women like them. They really think that insulting women is okay, and that as a result they deserve…..something. "You rabid frothing bitch!" "Oh, my God, I see the light! How wrong I was to value independence, autonomy, and self respect!" Do they think they're offering incentive? It's like watching the KKK complain about how mean black people are to them.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>@ GinmarYeah, that response cracks me up. I see some guys do it too when they try to hit on someone and she rejects them. "Hey baby, how about it?""No thanks, not interested.""You bitch!""Well gosh, I wasn't interested before, but now that you've insulted me, I just might change my mind!"I think they really think that this is how people work. Probably got a lot of negative reinforcement as children.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>If they would calm down and speak rationally, they might have greater success. To wit:MAN: Yo babe, what do you say to some sexual intercourse?WOMAN: No thank you.MAN: You appear to have forgotten that, as a man, my sexual desires take precedence over yours. Frankly, you don't really have a right to reject me. In fact if I were less rational I might get angry and call you a bitch or something.WOMAN: That's a very good point. I apologize for forgetting my place. Let us now engage in sexual intercourse.Works every time.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>I just hand the guy a jar of warm oiled rags and go about my day.

Amnesia
9 years ago

>@triplanetaryWOMAN: That, my good sir, is illogical. To instruct you further on the matter, I have a can of mace I call 'Mr. Spock.'

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>DAvid, you and the other guys here might find this shit amusing but keep in mind, us women have to deal with shit crap every day. By letting these assholes run roughshod over the women, you're crossing a line from observing to enabling. It may be entertaining to you…..but you don't get it every day.(ginmar)Well it doesnt get any clearer than this……..

Avicenna
9 years ago

>"- women are better than men at most physical, athletic tasks, and the only reason they don't compete against men is because the men don't want to, because they would feel inferior"Most female atheletes would kick my arse. The 100 m sprint in women is 10.49 without wind. That's a full 5 seconds plus faster than what I can run. Even if I train I am not going to beat that. Most men aren't. "- butt-kicking action girls are totally fine because it's just a movie and it's not supposed to be realistic anyway, oh but a woman could totally kick guys' asses if she wanted to"Quite a few do. And again sporting prowess and ass kicking prowess is hardly an indicator of our success as a human being. Infact they are now the opposite of our success as a human being. "- ginmar is a very angry person with psychological issues"Don't say that! She will hunt you down and make hats out of you. HATS!"- this whole blog seems to be dedicated to reading MRA boards, taking random quotes, and smugly criticizing them."Yes. Your point being? There is a lot of silly things said by them that need to be called out.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>Even in areas where women outnumber men, the men are often held in higher regard.(Amnesia)I have been a Registered Massage Therapist for 18yrs, in my industry women outnumber men, guess what, they are USUALLY held in higher regard.

Avicenna
9 years ago

>@Tit for TatIt never seems to affect us this perceived feminist plot. And in any case why would feminist/azis want our inferior male support? If they were as nutso as you claim then they would prefer it if we were not part of any movement of theirs. Most feminists like men. It's the fact that nearly 95% of the world is straight and by extension 95% of women you classify as feminists are probably in favour of men. Just they are in favour of "genuinely nice men" rather than "nice guys". (Hint, a genuinely nice man is not using his actions to get into bed.)

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>@ AvicennaIf you were paying attention at all to what I write you would clearly see that I dont use any of the language that you insinuate. In fact, for the most part I rarely if ever even use a slur or insult or any other defamatory language. I actually like most women(minus a few). I definately love and respect my wife, mother, daugther and the other women that have come before them. I just dont agree with certain aspects from the so called feminists(which include men) that I read on this site.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>I recommend that ginmar and SallyStrange be banned from this thread. They have been nothing but disruptive, rude and abusive from the beginning. One is a few fries short of a Happy Meal, and the other seems to think I was coming onto her or something. I recommend tranquilization and relocation to a radical feminist blog, where they may roam around with others of their kind, railing against the patriarchy and agreeing with each other. Electronic collars are recommended to keep track of their migration patterns.Avicenna: Hell, I'm all for mixed sports teams. If anything it'll increase visibility for female athletes (because let's face it, how many people watch women's sports compared to men's?) Should also be particularly interesting for events like boxing and the like. Bring it on!"And again sporting prowess and ass kicking prowess is hardly an indicator of our success as a human being. Infact they are now the opposite of our success as a human being. "Well now, it sounds like you're arguing two different things. First you imply women are physically equal – or even superior?, then you say "but it doesn't really matter anyway, it's not an indicator of success", as if you're not sure about it.Why would it be "the opposite of success" though? You wouldn't consider a professional athlete, or a martial arts master, successful? Even with all the work, discipline and effort it took to get there? I disagree, sir.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>So, if we decide to take away your right to vote, your right to own property, and your right to decide with whom to have sex and procreate, and your right to decide which kind of work you do (or rather, narrow it by about 90%, since as we are honest interlocutors, unlike MRA types, we will acknowledge that men's choices are also constrained under the current system) for 2 or 3 millennia, you'll call it even about a century after we've stopped writing your oppression into law?(Sally)Sorry idiot loser, nobody wins and everyone loses when people get into a pissing match about who has it worse(Sally)Now, what were you saying about a pissing match?

Amnesia
9 years ago

>"Don't say that! She will hunt you down and make hats out of you. HATS!"Hats? I love hats!Can I place an order?

triplanetary
9 years ago

>I recommend that ginmar and SallyStrange be banned from this thread. They have been nothing but disruptive, rude and abusive from the beginning. One is a few fries short of a Happy Meal, and the other seems to think I was coming onto her or something. I recommend tranquilization and relocation to a radical feminist blog, where they may roam around with others of their kind, railing against the patriarchy and agreeing with each other.You don't seem to understand something here: ginmar and SallyStrange are not the odd ones out here. You are. This is a "radical feminist blog," to the extent that "radical" means "left of Sarah Palin."You came here knowing full well that you'd be starting an argument. That makes you the disruptive one. There's nothing inherently wrong with starting an argument, but now you're getting pissy that we don't think you're some voice of reason. Get over it.

ginmar
9 years ago

>I'm sure you've just summed up his life, too. He never grew out of the stage where everybody thinks it's cute for boys to be boys—-you know, harassing girls and calling it good fun. But he hates it when the girls dare to suggest that they have a right to an opinion about what an asshole he is.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>The only thing you have a right to is heavy medication. I never called you a "rabid frothing bitch" despite your claims (so far the only ones cursing have been you and your friends), but damn, if the shoe fits… and in your case, that sucker fits like it was made to order.I love how you all assume I'm "getting pissy" (good god, if that isn't the supermassive black hole calling the kettle black) and "whining that people are being mean?" huh? seriously, where? This is why this is so much fun. I don't even know who or what your insults are directed at. Arguing with you is like tapping a guy on the shoulder, then watching him wildly punch and kick at the air in front of him for five minutes, yelling "take that! and that!" I mean seriously, if you people represent feminism, I should go to the MRA forum and tell them they've got nothing to worry about.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>"He never grew out of the stage where everybody thinks it's cute for boys to be boys—-you know, harassing girls and calling it good fun."But that means I secretly like you 🙂

ginmar
9 years ago

>Ion protests and protests and protests and yet others can see for themselves that his own words don't make him into the doe-eyed innocent. He really seems to think that his opinion of himself should be the one that holds sway over other people.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Hey Dickwad – if you don't like the heat then get out of the kitchen. Your views are highly objectionable to feminists. This is a blog frequented by feminists. What did you think, you were going to come in and make a grand announcement and then we were all going to go, "OMFG he is so right! I see the light now!" and suck your cock?Yeah, you probably did think that, because you're a fuckwitted woman-hating douchenozzle.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>"Your views are highly objectionable to feminists. This is a blog frequented by feminists."If I see any, I'll need to have a talk with them. Seems there's a bunch of idiots running around this place masquerading as feminists and ruining their image."What did you think, you were going to come in and make a grand announcement and then we were all going to go, "OMFG he is so right! I see the light now!" and suck your cock?"Yes, this is exactly what I thought. You've exposed my hidden agenda. Bravo, Mr. Bond. Shame you won't live long enough to stop me!"Yeah, you probably did think that, because you're a fuckwitted woman-hating douchenozzle."What is it with you and those words? They could be copy-pasted from every feminist blog, like, ever. You people need to update your insult repertoire. Sure, it would take some talent and creativity, but… oh, nevermind.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>Seems there's a bunch of idiots running around this place masquerading as feminists and ruining their image.What is it with you and those words? They could be copy-pasted from every feminist blog, like, ever.So are we making other feminists look bad, or are we representative of feminists? Make up your mind.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Could we all cool it with the personal insults here?

ginmar
9 years ago

>DAvid, either you do something about these trolls or you're asking women to accept this abusive shit from the MRAs. And if you put that mode of moderating in motion, you're telling women they have to tolerate the abusive shit that guys like Ion and the others thing is okay. Where were you when he was spinning his detailed bar fantasies?

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>ginmar, I was away from my computer for many hours. I cannot monitor the comments in this blog 24/7. Which at times can lead to less than ideal results, as was the case with Discount. But the only alternative Blogger allows is for me to approve all comments before they go up, and that would effectively shut down discussion here for ten hours a day at least. I'm not willing to do that. Given the subject matter of this blog, there is really no way it can be a "safe space," and so I do not attempt to make the comments a "safe space" either. That's why I have a "trigger warning" in the blog description at the top left in the sidebar. Discount went well over the line and I banned him as soon as I saw what he had posted. I have only banned a tiny handful of people here.As for Ion, yes, he's said some obnoxious shit here (including the bar thing above). But others (well, mostly Sally) have said some obnoxious shit back to him. My judgement call is that none of this has reached ban-worthy status, at least not yet. But at the same time I'm not pleased with this turn in the discussion. That's why I asked everyone to cool it a bit with the insults. I will delete comments if that sort of shit continues.

ginmar
9 years ago

>Did I say safe space, David? No. I'm talking about you hosting a space for misogynists and lumping them in with women who are reacting to misogyny with some sort of toss off remark about how people are behaving.

ginmar
9 years ago

>In other words, it's flat out bullshit to compare bigots with the people who are the victims of their bigotry. That's what you just did.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Just to clarify, when I said that "none of this has reached ban-worthy status, at least not yet," I was mostly referring to deleting individual comments, not banning people; no one here is close to being banned, unless they suddenly pull a Discount.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>ginmar, yes, in the interest of encouraging discussion I do allow misogynists to post here, and allow them to say more or less what they want, unless they start resorting to what I've called "gratuitously nasty personal attacks." I hold everyone here to the same standard of behavior in the comments here, though so far only misogynists have gone over the line to the point at which I've banned them.Enforcing the same set of rules for misogynists and feminists alike doesn't mean that I see them as equivalent. Obviously I don't, hence this blog. I'm for a generally open discussion on ideological grounds, even if that means that sometimes some people say obnoxious and bigoted shit. On this blog, the obnoxious stuff (insults, etc) comes from both sides; the bigoted shit almost exclusively from the MRA side. That, I think, is pretty revealing, and honestly, when MRAs and MGTOWers act like assholes and/or spout bigoted shit in the comments here it helps to reinforce and provide evidence for the points I make in my posts, and with the blog overall. I give them the opportunity to hoist themselves by their own petard, and many of them take advantage of that opportunity.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>Enforcing the same set of rules for misogynists and feminists alike doesn't mean that I see them as equivalent. Obviously I don't, hence this blog.(David)lol, just the fact that you need to make this statement is indeed pretty interesting. Dont worry Dave, I dont see you as a misogynist. Though, if you dont watch it, you might be a mansplainer. 🙂

ginmar
9 years ago

>When you treat bigots and their victims the same way, that's inherently wrong.

*THASF*
9 years ago

>I think that the predictable, heavy-handed rejection of action heroines by all those sexist types has a lot to do with their refusal to see women as individuals, instead lumping them all together into a collective. The western consciousness associates individualism with phallic symbolism. As a consequence, individualistic female characters in fiction are viewed with contempt by those who would prefer so-called "phallic" power to be reserved for generic male action heroes.I'm a writer, so I've come to notice some rather disturbing trends in fiction and in audience reactions to said works. There seems to be a huge double standard in play here.For example, has anyone ever noticed how expendable the average femme fatale seems to be? Ever watched a Bond film? Of course you have. How about those male villains? How come they get all the recurring appearances, while the women are nothing more than dime-a-dozen obstacles; mere insignificant roadblocks for 007 to surpass?Also, there seems to be an alarming lack of audience sympathy for villainous females. I mean, who are you more willing to sympathize with? Rosa Klebb and Cruella de Vil, or Draco Malfoy and Anton Chigurh? I mean, they're all reasonably nasty characters in their own right, but the latter two are often lauded as cool and charistmatic, while the former two are treated with near-total contempt. I could name any pair of male or female villains and the same patterns would emerge roughly 80% of the time.I'm in the process of working on a bit of a genre-buster novel myself that features a number of female protagonists who are powerful and ambitious in their own right. Who said that girls always have to play the part of the gentle down-to-earth nature-lover? That's just patronizing bullcrap.Girls can use guns and kick ass too. Ever hear of Lyudmila Pavlichenko or Nancy Wake? The former was a WWII Soviet sniper with a body count greater than Rambo, and the latter was an SOE spy who did badass stuff like killing Nazis with her bare hands and bike-riding hundreds of miles across German-occupied France to deliver updated radio codes.I think a lot of these MRA fellows are ignoring the simple fact that REAL female badasses have existed throughout history. It's hilarious watching them bitch and moan about fictional ones.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

>I think at least part of the problem is that there's a generation of younger male writers, who in their zeal to create "strong" women characters, end up making them completely over-the-top, unrealistic, over-sexualized Mary Sues. See Aeon Flux (the movie, not the animated series), Ultraviolet, Sucker Punch, Resident Evil (movies), Tomb Raider and the like. I don't think anyone can really identify with those characters, men or women, because there's nothing to identify with. They're just "butt-kicking action babe #342 who's got superhuman fighting skills for no adequately explained reason". I haven't seen "Hanna" but if there's a good reason for the character being good at fighting (for example being a skilled marksman, not throwing grown men twice her size around like toys or something), and she's actually well-developed as a character, I see no reason to complain.I do agree that there's a lack of sympathetic or memorable female villains. I can't think of one, actually.

*THASF*
9 years ago

>I dislike the term Mary Sue because it has effectively become meaningless. Originally, it referred to self-insert characters in fan fiction created as the perfect, incorruptible love interests for canonical characters; ones that the fanfic's author no doubt had a crush on.Since then, it has become a universally derogatory catch-all for "unrealistic characters", or "characters I don't like/cannot sympathize with/cannot connect with", or "characters who monopolize the plot", or "characters who alter the plot at will".That's just bad writing. Singling out one character as a Mary Sue is pointless. It's like hunting for a dust bunny on a rug that's been through a house fire, or complaining about a bad spark plug in an engine that's tossed a rod. If such a character exists in a work, then the problem isn't with that character. It's with the plot itself.A lot of authors fail to challenge their characters appropriately, and this is especially the case when the character in question is female. Your typical action heroine gets away with things that most male action heroes don't, like going through a massive fight or a gun battle without taking a single hit of any kind and downing more than their fair share of baddies all the same.This is probably because your average audience doesn't have the stomach for seeing a woman in a work of fiction gruesomely injured, whether the medium in question is a book, movie, comic or a video game or anything else. Personally, I think that having strong women in a work of fiction who can take a few licks and keep on ticking makes them more human and easier to relate with. There's no dignity in being magically shielded from all harm or loss or mental trauma as the plot demands, don't you agree?Sadly, the double standard is more pervasive than you'd think. In a work of cinema, a man with blood running down his face after a fight is a proud warrior and a testament to masculine fortitude. A woman with blood running down her face after a fight is victim and a survivor. Regardless of their actions on-screen and whether or not the woman initiated acts of aggression or took a greater share in the violence, these skewed audience perceptions remain. This has some strange side effects. For example, let’s say I were to write a book with a female villain that is not only a mass murderer, a war criminal and a sadist without compare, but she’s also the protagonist of the work. Would that make me a misogynist trying to paint a negative picture of women? Of course not. The character is an individual and part of a fictional plot, not a member of a collective. She does not speak for all women, just as a male character in the same situation would not speak for all men. As the author, I am supposed to remain completely impartial; neither supporting the cause of a given character nor rallying against it. Sometimes, it seems like you just can’t win with action heroines, though. If you make them over-the-top and manly/sadistic, it pisses off the masculists who see them as monopolizing dominant male traits that belong to them and them alone, and it pisses off feminists who see them as a male in disguise attempting to smear their good name. If you make them feminine and endearing, it pisses off masculists who see them as impostors and too incompetent to hold their own in a fight, and it pisses off feminists who want them to be just a little bit stronger.It’s like people just can’t make up their minds. You know what I say to that? To hell with it all. I like a good challenge, and writing convincing action heroines is one of the biggest of all.

ginmar
9 years ago

>Society doesn't want to see women hurt? Have you been living under a rock? TV shows glory in showing scantily-clad victims getting tortured and raped and killed. Novels are worse. Hell, James Ellroy has made a career out of fetishizing and disparaging his mother, who he sneers at in print. Women getting murdered is a substantial genre. Without it, any number of TV channels would grow out of business.