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| From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. |
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along. The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:
* I despise the entire female sex. Period.* I hate only “western” women.* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.* I just blame feminists.* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.
Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means.
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate.
Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.
And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:
I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …
When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.
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| Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds. |
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women:
Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way.
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong.
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents:
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile:
I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:
i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.
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>Here is a post:http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/If you haven't read it already, please do.Good night everyone.
>Tangent point to NWO’s comment, but has anyone else noticed that MRAs have completely bizarre ideas regarding blue-collar and working class men? They seem to like to set them up as rejected, downtrodden, and exploited by women- working long, dangerous jobs because of their women; being ignored in favour of a richer man, etc etc. It seems to completely distant to the actual reality of a blue-collar man: I’ve been with a guy who works one of the dirty, difficult, life-shortening jobs that MRAs like to complain about for years, and I have yet to meet anyone in his industry, or from his background that complains like this. They don’t worry that the woman who Brad Pitt flirts with will reject them; she lives in a different world than their wives and girlfriends, including me. It all smells of middle-class, collage-educated men talking about what they assume a blue-collar man’s life is like, rather than their own experiences in that world.
>From the link NWO provided:Criminal harassment is defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim. (M.S. § 609.749, Subd. I). Such conduct can include following or pursuing you, returning to your property without your consent, making repeated phone calls, inducing you to make calls, causing your phone to repeatedly ring, repeatedly mailing or delivering unwanted letters, objects, or gifts to you.It's hard to imagine that someone who has simply approached a woman on the street–for the purpose of asking for a date, offering a compliment, or striking up a conversation–could be prosecuted under this law, whether that person was a sewer worker or Brad Pitt. Let's see an example, NWO: give us the name of someone who was jailed for simply talking to a woman in a non-threatening manner. Or are you just making stuff up?
>WILL. YOU. SPELL. THE FUCKING. WORD. CORRECTLY?!? PLEASE!!! It's "hypocrisy". Let's take it slow, now: h. y. p. o. c. r. I. S. y./rantI'll put myself to your question now. You alternated between "Brad Pitt" and a "Brad Pitt type", so I'll tackle each separately.If Brad Pitt himself were to say to me, (your words) "Wow, you're hot!" in all honesty, my reaction would be to jump, turn to look at whether that was just said to me, realize it was, register who exactly just said it, wonder what the fuck he was doing in my little city, be unsure of what I should feel, mutter a low "thanks", continue on my way, process the interaction, and then likely feel insulted and even a little creeped that he felt entitled enough to walk up to a complete stranger and expect me to be flattered.For a Brad Pitt type, I assume that means good-looking male, so I'll tell you what my reactions have been in non-harassing situations: I felt flattered, and I felt nervous, and I was never sure if he was joking or not. Sometimes I said a bright, "Thank you!" and sometimes I walked away awkwardly.In harassing situations, I felt threatened. Period. I usually said nothing unless I feared his anger if I didn't.Now for the sewer-worker. Never come across one, so I'll assume this means not-so-good-looking male. In non-harassing situations, I definitely felt flattered and said a bright "Thank you!" One such example was man about twice my age who told me I was "drop dead gorgeous!" Yes, I was flattered, even though I would never have fucked that guy in a million years.In harassing situations, it's the same as with good-looking men: I felt threatened.So, at least for me, your bullshit "hypocrisy" (remember how it's spelled, now) theory does not apply. Good-looking men make me nervous. You could say I deeply fear their sense of entitlement having had bad experiences with good-looking boys in my childhood. Now when most of them express an interest in me, I think they're joking; when it's clear they're not, that often just scares me even more. For a long time, I felt relatively safer with not-so-good-looking men, until one of them, whom I considered a good friend, betrayed my trust very badly when he decided he was entitled to me.So what am I, then, NWO"slave" (I can hardly contain my laughter!), an exception to most women? An exception to all women? I have serious doubts about that. I don't mind flattery, and I don't care who it comes from, in fact I like flattery. I do not like, and in fact fear, harassment, again no matter who it comes from. But in both flattery and harassment, I'm far less comfortable with good-looking men than I am with not-so-good-looking men.
>I have never seen anyone in the MRM argue that women should be harassed along the lines of 'nice tits, bitch', rather the argument is made (if sometimes poorly worded) that approach miscalibration (say, someone with poor social skills that keeps trying for a too long) can be easily misinterpreted as harassment, sometimes resulting in extremely rude and hostile responses and accusations of harassment, at work (many people still meet their mate at work) this sort of misinterpretation can make someone lose their job, and if the hollaback guys have their way, could result in legal sanction even on the street. Victor, consider the messages that women are given (by MRA's, no less) about proper rejection. On the one hand, women are damned if we aren't gentle enough in rejecting an especially persistent suitor. On the other hand, we are told, what we think of as rape is almost always a "miscommunication" because men don't understand nuance and non-verbal cues. Or verbal cues even, as we are often told (again, in the context of discussing rape), that even saying "no" isn't enough, that it has to be "forceful" and unambiguous to the nth degree, because men are just that clueless, apparently. The truth is, however, is that both miscommunication-rape and miscalibration-harassment occur for the same reason: that many men are still reared with the idea that what women say is just noise, that what women want doesn't matter, and that a woman is merely an obstacle between a man and sex. Not every man may say it in such blatant terms, but if you observe certain men's behavior and read between the lines of what they say and write, you'll see that their perception of women is the real problem here. And that being reality, we learn to view every "miscalibrator" as a potential rapist/murderer, and we learn to reject such men, well, forcefully. I don't like hurting people's feelings, particularly if they like me, and I do give people leeway on account of social awkwardness. But between getting dressed down for being mean on the one hand, and getting raped and seeing the rapist get away with it on the other, I think the choice is a no-brainer. Perhaps when MRA's and traditionalists stop being so dismissive of women, the dynamic will change.Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual.It is unfortunate, and I don't want to get into oppression olympics here, but there are a couple of observations I must make. First, like it or not, the sting of rejection does not really compare to the threat of severe physical harm that women, particularly young women, live under, so it should be understandable if women don't want to put their lives and limb at risk in order to protect a stranger's feelings. Second, more women would do the approaching if the act wasn't consistently derided as desperate and "unfeminine".
>"Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual….And that is why there is feminism."Perhaps, but what I'm saying reflects most people's reality today."particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.For the love of God. This isn't true! And if it were, IT HAPPENS TO WOMEN TOO. "Men higher on the attraction scale are less likely to be rejected out of hand (and when they are rejected it is less likely to be with a big show of disgust), and so their approaches are less likely to be interpreted as harassment. Charming men have better social skills, and so, even when being rejected (which is less often because they are charming) are more likely to pick up on cues early in an approach that it is not welcome, so the approach is less likely to devolve into something that is interpreted as harassment.Yes women also get rejected, and it also happens based on unfair criteria, and that feeling sucks regardless of gender, but no one is trying to criminalize poor social skills when approaching during the courtship ritual for women.
>I put the Brad Pitt question to my wife, and we agreed that the appropriate response would be: "Um…are you sure Angelina's OK with this?" Because she's kind of scary…
>Oh, sure, Victor. I'm sure when my socially awkward friend, who fit many people's definition of ugly, grabbed my breast when I bent to pick up my books (I was wearing two fucking sweaters that day), it was just because he didn't pick up any cues that maybe I wouldn't "welcome" that. I'll bet it was the same when he followed an acquaintance of mine to her home and kissed her before she screamed and ran inside, or when he then waited outside her home for twenty minutes, or when he told her that her rejection of him was joking. You know what? Funnily enough, all three of us were part of a group of socially awkward people, and few of our group were considered very good-looking. Yet, it was only one who decided to sexually assault two of us. Somehow I think the so-called inability to "pick up on cues" had fuck all to do with it.
>@Cassandra,Sorry about your friend, not cool. But he, and anyone who puts their hands on people in that way are not what I'm talking about.
>"The truth is, however, is that both miscommunication-rape and miscalibration-harassment occur for the same reason: that many men are still reared with the idea that what women say is just noise, that what women want doesn't matter, and that a woman is merely an obstacle between a man and sex."Wow, an approach by an unattractive unconfident person who, because he lacks social skills comes on a little strong on the occasions where he musters up the courage to approach a woman has the mentality of a rapist? That's a bit much. The next time that you wonder why some of the MGTOW types have arrived at a feeling of resentment towards women, perhaps you might consider the cumulative effect it would have on someone over the years for their awkward attempts at having a normal human romantic life treated as reflecting the same sort of mentality that a rapist has.
>I can empathize with the difficulty someone (of either gender) faces when making the first move on someone who they're not sure is interested, but culturally we're moving away from the formalized "guy asking a girl out" model, where a guy might ask a waitress or a girl he meets at a coffee shop for her number, anyway. Nowadays (where I am, anyway), it's more common for mixed-gender groups to just hang out as friends. If you've been casually spending time with the girl for months already, you probably have a pretty good idea whether she would want to date you or not, and you'll have a better sense of what sort of approach will get a positive response.Plus, patience is usually the best choice. If you're not sure, wait until you are sure. Bonus: if she really is interested, you might get her to make the first move.-katz
> Frustrating and demeaning experiences accumulate, particularly for less attractive men and those with poor social skills, who may have difficulty properly calibrating their approaches.What frustrates *me* is when women get blamed for this, for not immediately being responsive and open to every pass made, because Think of the Poor Man's Feelings. Here's a hint: if those men, whom you have admitted are poorly socialized, are accused of harassment… they're probably being harassing. Maybe they don't realize it, but this is something they need to wise up to. Women don't accuse men of harassment just for shits and giggles, or just to take petty revenge on the unattractive guy who made a pass at them. Women accuse men of harassment when they feel harassed.So here's an idea – if you're really full of compassion for those poor under-socialized men who just want to get a date, then instead of coming *here* and bitching, why don't you set up programs that teaches those men about things like body language, nonverbal cues and the fact that attraction isn't reciprocal?
>Nahida said… "Let me put this in a way that all MRAs can understand: in terms of cupcakes.The fact that I would eat a vanilla cupcake but not a chocolate cupcake is not hypocrisy."Of course it's not. It's racism.
>NAHIDA IS A CUPCAKE RACIST. It's okay. I'm cookie racist. I will not eat those weird, vanilla oreo type things.
>On the other hand, we are told, what we think of as rape is almost always a "miscommunication" because men don't understand nuance and non-verbal cues. Or verbal cues even,…Funny, as some (if not most) men seem to read verbal/non-verbal cues and understand nuance quite well when a man who might be larger than them or is in a more dominant position than them (eg., employer/boss) is giving them those cues.
>"How does this thread have 197 comments? I swear it wasn't even here when I checked the site a few hours ago."I'm going to go out on a limb and say it has something to do with NWOScreamer's seemingly nonstop and barely coherent ragevomit he's chosen to share with us.
>The next time that you wonder why some of the MGTOW types have arrived at a feeling of resentment towards women, perhaps you might consider the cumulative effect it would have on someone over the years for their awkward attempts at having a normal human romantic life treated as reflecting the same sort of mentality that a rapist has. You weren't talking about the boob-grabbing, and apparently you say you're not talking about anything anyone mentions here. What exactly is this scenario of sheer awkwardness that women "misunderstand" to be rape mentality? I've never thought a guy who nervously gave me an awkward "hey" is more likely to maul me than any other guy unless he think continued to then display boob-grabbingesque behavior.Women don't just accuse people of harassing them. Most women, when they ARE harassed, don't even report it. You are assuming we all have bad faith.
>I will not eat those weird, vanilla oreo type things.But I hear those are fantastic!
>Lady Victoria von Syrus said it better. ^
>As I believe I said earlier, NWOaf is a good example of why MRA has so little credibility. He doesn’t understand the true definition of hypocrisy, can’t even spell the damn word, yet he goes on and on about it. Mostly he comes off as bitter that some chick compared him negatively to Brad Pitt this one time. And what about this harassment/rejection question?First of all, any guys on here who are taking the question of “how women deal with street harassment” and relating it to “how men go about finding dates” need to STOP RIGHT FUCKING NOW. The two are not the same. They are not even related. The fact that you think they are related is WHY YOU HAVE TROUBLE GETTING DATES. This is so goddamn ridiculous. Seriously, Brad Pitt saying “you’re hot”? I mean what the fuck are we even talking about? Can you even read the words you write? This is so far removed from reality, and when the women on this thread try to check you and point out that you’re not actually talking about what happens in reality, you’re like, “LA LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” thereby adding more evidence to the already articulated thesis that many (not most by any means) men regard women’s voices, feelings, and opinions as just a bunch of annoying white noise.
> no one is trying to criminalize poor social skills when approaching during the courtship ritual for women.Well, victor, fortunately no one is trying to criminalize poor social skills for men who try to approach women either. What IS being criminalized? First, stalking—you can look up NWOaf’s link for a list of behaviors that constitute stalking. Asking for a date once does not qualify. Second, street harassment, and in order for that to be against the law, you have to: a.) directly threaten physical harm b.)touch someone without her permission c.) pull out your dick in public. Do you really think that doing any of these things are going to get a woman to agree to go on a date with you? If so, then yes, your “courtship” might get you arrested. If not, then you must acknowledge that when you say that courtship rituals are criminalized, you are straight up lying.
>(1) Ozy, I love you forever.(2) Victor, this is an important point about socialization.(3) NWO, bracketing the discussion about abortion, I sympathize with this sanitation worker's emotional turmoil at being rejected when he's made an effort to go outside of his comfort zone. I know it's difficult to approach people and that being rejected is painful. BUT for pity's sake–and this is all everyone was initially trying to say–there is more to a woman's rejection than whether she finds a man good looking or not. Please, please, please–instead of accusing women of hypocrisy, try asking about appropriate ways of approaching women. All of us will tell you that an obnoxious comment or an inappropriate context is a turn off *regardless* of the man's attractiveness or salary (this is really what you're talking about, right?). Being complimented is flattering from a random stranger at a bar, but we expect to be flirted with in bars so it's fine; it's not OK when, say, it's a random cab driver. Not because he makes less money than we may do, but because we're alone in his car and therefore a captive audience. The context makes an otherwise flattering comment coercive and threatening. Especially since a comment like that often precedes stronger statements. A woman never knows if this will happen to her when she gets in a cab (I have to take a lot of them where I live). That's a social punishment as painful as rejection. Telling a woman "Hey, you're hot" in a bar is OK–it might not get you anywhere, and you should probably scope out whether she's already with someone, but it would be expected; it's not OK on the street because she has no idea why you are talking to her or whether you will start following her. Maybe she's having a bad day, maybe she just broke up with her SO, maybe she's on her way to get married. Do you know whether the context is appropriate? If not, then don't approach. And take rejection on the chin, it's part of life.
>NWO…"I really like your shoes" is not a way to initiate conversation with a woman that leads to sex. It will end badly.My actual most useful way of getting a date is "Hey, I had fun screaming at you in this loud bar, fancy going somewhere quieter where we don't have to yell so much?" Sometimes depending on the tone of the conversation I get a good laugh with the most specific chat up line ever "How about next week we go get some chinese and then back to yours for an Indian?" (hint. I am brown and made out of chocolate and can eat curry)But "hey" is a great way to start conversation with a stranger of either gender in a social situation than screaming lines into their ears.That being said… I do have the worst/best chat up line ever and have used it only once succesfully on the most amazing date ever."All My dates end up at the morgue, one may as well start there. Do you want to come see a human dissection and then go out for a dinner and drinks?"Be honest, how many ladies (and gentlemen too if you like.) would say yes if someone asked you out with this.A
>All this Brad Pitt talk reminds me of the last guy I dated before meeting my current boyfriend. We had gone out for a few months, when suddenly he violated my trust in a way that I found extremely threatening. And, in trying to redeem himself, then violated my boundaries in ways that I found extremely threatening. And then tried to reason that my reluctance to patch things up with him was of course based on the fact that he didn't look like Brad Pitt.That was bullshit. I liked the way he looked. I hated the way he had shown himself to be a person who didn't respect me or my boundaries.But what he did wasn't uncommon. It's pretty normal to blame the parts of you that are unchangeable or that are actually not that bad or that you've come to terms with, in lieu of doing the harder work of trying to see how others perceive you. It's like saying, "I guess my success scares men off" or "Apparently, women don't want to date nice guys like me." In other words, if you have a problem with women, not looking like Brad Pitt is likely not its cause. Unless, perhaps, you're only interested in dating women who look like Angelina Jolie.
>NWOSlave:Every society regulates it's population in a way that is, at face value, horrible. Safe medical abortion and contraception are the methods our society has chosen because infant exposure, foundling hospitals with 100% mortality rates by age 2, forced sterilization and/or violent, roving child gangs were not to our liking. Source: This book http://tinyurl.com/3j2vokvEverything has a cost and a benefit, and we talk a lot about the cost of abortion (abortion stops a beating heart) and not the benefit (that we all have more opportunity because our society is not having to absorb another million+ people per year) because the cost is obvious and the benefit is not immediately visible.