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| From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. |
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along. The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:
* I despise the entire female sex. Period.* I hate only “western” women.* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.* I just blame feminists.* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.
Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means.
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate.
Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.
And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:
I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …
When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.
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| Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds. |
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women:
Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way.
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong.
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents:
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile:
I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:
i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.
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>Sally…I thought maybe you could answer my questions, well really just on extended question.What is hollaback? What are it's goals? How will those goals be achieved?
>In other words sally you'd be flattered he said you were hot and he would NOT be reported for harrassment. Thank you for your honest answer.
>If Brad Pitt told me I'm hot I would probably not believe him; but I wouldn't really care since I'm in a happy relationship, and asexual – so I wouldn't desire sex with him!
>Also I don't know why everyone thiks angelina is like this great thing, I just don't see it. Ever see her with out being photoshopped to death? Meh.
>@toraism…I don't even know what asexual is, every year some new sex pops up and I just can't keep up.
>Do you dress up when your staying home alone?None of your fucking business. How women dress when they are at home or in public is completely irrelevant to your existence.Also, this Even if this hypothetical woman rejected a sewer worker in favor of Brad Pitt…SO WHAT?!?The sense of entitlement here is amazing.
>WHY CAN'T I HAVE THE SAME TREATMENT AS BRAD PITT? *cries* She fucked him, therefore she should fuck me THE FILTHY WHORE!
>Asexual means you don't desire sex. So even if some guy complimented me, flirted with me, etc, I wouldn't want to have sex with him (even if I weren't in a relationship!). I feel like most of the reason that a person gives out compliments/flirts/harasses is for sex, so as someone for whom sex isn't anything, I see it a bit differently.
>Asexuality is a sexuality, not a sex.Good God.And why would you even ask a question if you'll only believe ONE answer? Why don't you just go on your merry little way and believe whatever the fuck you want?
>@Nahida…The point is, If two men come up to you saying the exact same thing and one is some Brad Pitt Superstud and He flatters you by saying something, yet the other guy who is a lowly menial laborer will be called a street harrasser.Thats the point. It's pure hypocracy.
>There is a difference between rejecting someone and thinking someone is a harasser. People of all genders obviously reject proposals from others to date/fuck due to attractiveness in part. When it comes to harassment, harassment is harassment, regardless of the looks and social class of the harasser. NWO simply assumes that women are golddigging bitches and so he cannot figure out those concepts.Oh, and the jobs of the last three men I went on a date with-gas station cashier, McDonald's, and a barber. The jobs of the last three women I went on a date with- university student, waitress, cafe cashier.@Sally, you hit the nail on the head with the rape exception, it is totally inconsistent with opposition to abortion due to personhood but all about slut shaming. I had a friend in highschool who was conceived due to a rape (an incestuous rape at that). She was a wonderful person no more deserving of being killed than any other actual person.Which brings me to another point, US law is extremely clear about abortion rights belonging to the person who is pregnant, not the biological mom (ova provider). Surrogates can neither be forced to abort nor denied abortion access. So, when the man gives sperm and the woman gives the egg, the person who is pregnant, whether or not they are the one who provided the egg, is the one who has the abortion rights. Disputes over ownership of embryos outside of the uterus (embryos from IVF processes) have resulted in clear and consistent rulings that the parties have equal interest. Parties also have equal interest after birth (in general, surrogacy and maternity laws can put bio moms in surrogacy cases in weird legal limbo in certain districts). It is pretty damned clear that abortion rights are conditioned on a certain situation-that of being the person whose pregnancy is involved. It is not a legal or social inequality that results in some people having uteri and others not.@NWO, I am sexually attracted to women and I manage to walk around the street and see beautiful women wearing all sorts of different things without harassing, sexually assaulting, or raping anyone. And, you know what? So do most hetero guys. Men, in case you haven't realized, are grown ass people capable of behaving like responsible adults if they do so choose. Btw, how can you not see the inconsitency between your view that men are out of control rape machines incapable of resisting nail polish as provocation to rape and your view that rape accusations are generally not genuine and that all (or most) men aren't rapists?@brigit, I have used dental dams and condoms for oral. It is not a deal breaker and I do it whenever my partner asks, I just have a preference towards not using it. But, ew, flavored lubes often contain artificial sweeteners, which taste worse than latex. (Yes, I do have both dental dams and flavored lubes available in my house, but I just am not a huge fan).
>Oh STFU. Like you wouldn't treat a conventionally attractive woman differently than one who isn't.Don't bother telling me you wouldn't–because I won't believe you. Take what you give, biatch.
>Because I want you to admit to the hypocracy.Men flat out say they are initially attracted to the most beautiful woman at first glance. We make no bones about it.But you on the other hand want to be flattered by Mr. studmuffin, yet claim harrassment by joe the plumber. You want to claim some injustice just for being approached by someone you find unattractive.So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached.
>It's. Not. Hypocrisy.So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached. Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is. KTHXBIE
>NWO, you've had numerous women here tell you your assumptions about this are wrong. If you don't want to believe them, that's your right, but at this point perhaps it would be best to move on to another topic for fuck's sake.
>@DarkSideCat…I agree with you in theory. This is the problem, if I approach a woman to talk to her, her perception of me determines wether or not I'm harrassing her. In other words, my being accused of harrassment boils down to a womans "feeling" at any particular moment in time. I could walk up to 10 women and say, "hey I really like your shoes" 9 of them might say thank you but the 10th one might say you're harrassing me, take my picture and hollaback. Correct? Which means that harrassment is exactly what any woman feels at any point in time. I find that to be a problem.
>OK dave I will, it'd be nice if my previous post was answered I'll post no more I'll just refresh and see if anyone will respond to my previous post.
>Damn straight it's whatever she feels at any point in time! If she isn't smiling at you, if she is reading a book or staring out the window or listening to her iPod–DO NOT SPEAK TO HER. She is not obligated to acknowledge your presence. She is not obligated to thank you for anything. She does not exist for you to approach her with insufferable compliments.If she glares at you after you tell her she has nice shoes YOU WILL NOT PROCEED TO BOTHER HER. If you do, if you ignore her wishes to be left alone, then yes–you are harassing her.
>Are women not allowed to have feelings? Are we only allowed to have feelings that you approve of when you interrupt our day to tell us something we have no interest in being told?If Brad Pitt yelled out a moving car "You look hot!" I would look and feel puzzled. If Mike Trainor did the same thing, I would look and feel equally puzzled. Same if they came up to me in the street. But if Brad Pitt came up and said "fuck me baby," I would be offended and ignore him. Mike Trainor, on the other hand, I would be puzzled again and turn red. Is that what you are driving at? That a person I find attractive says something offensive to me I give him more of a pass because he is attractive to me?
>Let me put this in a way that all MRAs can understand: in terms of cupcakes.The fact that I would eat a vanilla cupcake but not a chocolate cupcake is not hypocrisy.
>Jesus. Call me weird here, but I don't date people who yell things at me on street corners. I did give my first kiss to a random guy at a bookstore? But his big line was "hey," which I highly recommend as a non-harassing way of figuring out whether someone wants to talk to you. Also, if Brad Pitt told me to fuck him in a non-harassing way, I'd still say no. Bleh. SO unattractive.
>In short: I would rather fuck certain sewerworkers than Brad Pitt, assuming said sewerworkers otherwise fit waht I wanted in a guy.
>How does this thread have 197 comments? I swear it wasn't even here when I checked the site a few hours ago.I will probably read the comments (for lulz, of course!), but I just wanted to pitch and say, before I did, that I'm really glad to see another post. A friend of mine once referred to being at the center of a blog war as passing under the eye of Sauron.Yay manboobz!
>"Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is."I'm don’t think that the argument is that women don't have the right to reject whomever they would like. I think that the issue comes from the fact, as you mention, that "Rejecting and approaching are not the same." Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual. Frustrating and demeaning experiences accumulate, particularly for less attractive men and those with poor social skills, who may have difficulty properly calibrating their approaches. I have never seen anyone in the MRM argue that women should be harassed along the lines of 'nice tits, bitch', rather the argument is made (if sometimes poorly worded) that approach miscalibration (say, someone with poor social skills that keeps trying for a too long) can be easily misinterpreted as harassment, sometimes resulting in extremely rude and hostile responses and accusations of harassment, at work (many people still meet their mate at work) this sort of misinterpretation can make someone lose their job, and if the hollaback guys have their way, could result in legal sanction even on the street. Both men and women can approach and reject, but only men face possible sanction, if not yet legal in all settings, then certainly social, for a poorly calibrated approach.A heterosexual man is unlikely to enjoy much of a romantic life if he never approaches. So when you say “One is not a choice, and the other is", unless a man is choosing celibacy it really isn’t. I understand it must be frustrating to have to deal with approaches from people you aren’t interested in; the situation is often very frustrating for the men doing the approaching as well, particularly for poorly socialized men who don’t understand why they are unable to make the human connection that they observe others being able to make. No one says you can’t reject someone that approaches you (though you could keep in mind when doing so that no insult is intended). The possibility of formal or legal sanction for the crime of attempting to play at the courtship ritual is what comes off as a bit much, particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.
>Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual.…And that is why there is feminism.[…] particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.For the love of God. This isn't true! And if it were, IT HAPPENS TO WOMEN TOO.