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| From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. |
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along. The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:
* I despise the entire female sex. Period.* I hate only “western” women.* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.* I just blame feminists.* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.
Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means.
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate.
Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.
And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:
I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …
When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.
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| Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds. |
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women:
Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way.
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong.
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents:
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile:
I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:
i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.
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>Oh… abortion? Silly me, I thought we were talking about children, not fetuses. You should be more precise with your language to avoid confusing the issue.
>No my question has been answered quite well. Men have no reproductive rights as established by the guns of the state.Really? The corner store doesn't sell condoms to men? Vasectomies are illegal in the US all of a sudden? Someone forces you to fuck at gunpoint? Medicaid doesn't cover the treatment of prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction anymore? Man, you are deranged.
>@SallyStrange…No Sally, I'm saying that women do dress to get attention from men. The difference between being flattered and being harrassed is a womans feelings towards who is making the advancement.Brad Pitt = flatteredsewerworker = harrassment.To say you wouldn't be flattered if Brad Pitt approached would be to lie. Yet the lowly sewerworker is in for a stint at the roundhouse for harrassment.
>@Amused…Once conception takes place the deed is done. Thus a man has no reproductive rights.
>actually NWO, I get harassed by my school's rugby players. It has nothing to do with how attractive they are. I just don't like other people harassing me
>Well former fetus Sally who was a seperate life at conception and still is, yes.
>NWAsshole, now you're trying to pretend that harassment never happens. That's also very insulting. It's insulting towards the millions of women who have experienced sexual harassment. No, it's not about the relative attractiveness of the man involved. Yes, if Brad Pitt yells out a window, "Buy a bra, bitch!!" then I would feel equally threatened and angered as I did when a total stranger (a fairly good-looking college age white dude, as I recall) did it. Of course, I say these things, but you won't believe me because I'm a woman and you believe that women lie about these things–because you hate women. Just own up to it, you'll probably feel better once you're able to be honest with yourself about it.
>A fetus has the right to autonomy, except under current State enforced legal statute.
>You weren't separate at conception, honey. If you were, women wouldn't need uteri. Facts of life–still learning them, eh? I owe my life to an abortion. If my dad's girlfriend hadn't aborted my older, hypothetical, non-existent half-sibling, I wouldn't be here. And guess what? THAT WOULD BE OKAY.
>A fetus has the right to autonomy, just like men have the right to gestate fetuses.
>@SallyStrange…I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm sure it does and it's wrong. What I am saying is that if your flattered by a Brad Pitt type man flirting and you being flattered, yet a lowly sewerworker on that same day says something, HIS flirting would be considered harrassment. Thats the hypocracy I'm speaking of. Which YOU won't admit to.
>@SallyStrange…Please don't make stupid when a man can gestate arguements. Shall I say when a woman can produce the seeds of life then she has the state given right to abort?
>I give only 2 reasons for abortion1)danger to the mothers life/trading one life for another basically.2)rape, because no woman should be forced to bear her attackers child.Other than that all else is murder, no matter how you say it or what you call it.
>Once conception takes place the deed is done. Thus a man has no reproductive rights.A man has no reproductive rights IN SOMEONE ELSE'S PREGNANCY because a man doesn't get pregnant. Once conception takes place, the deed is done FOR YOU. For the woman, it's far from done. Or do you imagine that your sperm cells are actually microscopic children, whereas a woman's uterus is just an incubator? YOU don't get pregnant. YOU don't suffer the risk of death or lifelong disability as a result of conception. YOU don't get stuck with huge medical bills. YOU don't get swollen ankles, diabetes, organ failure and breathing difficulties. YOU don't have to quit your job because the doctor told you to spend the next 4 months lying on one side. YOU don't get fired because your weakened health makes you unable to do your job or because your boss is offended by the sight of your belly. YOU don't have to spend 40 hours in agonizing pain, prodded, picked at and pumped full of chemicals. YOU don't have to push something the size of a watermelon out of a bodily orifice. Therefore YOU don't get to impose this burden on someone else, even if (gasp!) you put your semen in them. Regardless of where you blow your load, your reproductive rights, just like women's reproductive rights, stop with your body. You don't have a right to control anyone else's.The difference between being flattered and being harrassed is a womans feelings towards who is making the advancement.That's right, Einstein — women's feelings matter. You don't have a right to do whatever the hell you want to do and ignore the feelings of the person that you are doing it to. Besides: "Nice tits, bitch! Wanna suck my dick?" isn't flirting, regardless of the man's attractiveness or social status. Things like that aren't calculated to express an appreciation for a woman's looks — they are calculated to insult and to inspire fear. So knock it off about sewermen. When you act in a way that's calculated to hurt a woman's feelings by making her afraid or by telling her she is a slab of meat, you don't get then to poo-poo those feelings as unimportant. Harassment and rape have nothing to do with attraction — and everything to do with men like you feeling entitled to "punish" women for perceived social transgressions.
>@SallyStrange…No sally your wrong, I do know my facts of life. At the instant of conception the fetilized egg detaches itself. It is seperate from the instant of conception. If it wasn't seperate, it never would be.
>Nope NWAsshole, you've not caught me in any hypocrisy–and if you're going to use the word that frequently then you ought to look up the correct spelling. What are you trying to prove exactly? That it's harder to hit on stranger when you're dirty and smelly after a full day of picking up trash? Point granted. Except we aren't talking about hitting on people–that is, flirting, trying to get dates. We are talking about HARASSMENT, remember? And what do you say to the Egyptian women who cover not only their legs and arms but also their heads, 85% of whom report being harassed in the streets–what did THEY wear to deserve the harassment? Re: men gestating fetuses. It makes perfect sense. In Monty Python's The Life of Brian, the character Stan said he wanted to be a woman. Stan: I want to be a woman. I want to have babies. It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them. Reg: You can't have babies!Stan: Don't you oppress me. Ultimately the group decides that it's Stan's RIGHT to have babies. The fetus' right to autonomy is quite perfectly analogous. Sure, a fetus might have a RIGHT to autonomy–but since it lacks sentience, as well as the ability to survive without being inside a uterus, with a functioning placenta to siphon blood, oxygen, and nutrients off from the mother's body, it has no functional autonomy. Saying that fetuses have the right to autonomy is very much like saying that men have the right to get pregnant. Or that women have the right to get erections. Sure, you have the RIGHT. It's just functionally meaningless.
>rape, because no woman should be forced to bear her attackers childSo really, it's all about punishing women for you. Unless you also think it's acceptable to murder already-born people who happen to have a rapist for a father?
>At the instant of conception the fetilized egg detaches itself. It is seperate from the instant of conception.Fine. If the egg detaches and is "seperate", then it shouldn't need to suck up another person's nutrients in order to grow and survive. So it should be free to pass out of the woman's body and go live somewhere else. "Seperately".Other than that all else is murder, no matter how you say it or what you call it.Fine. Then your refusal to donate your kidney to someone who needs it to survive is murder too.
>@Amused…That's right, Einstein — women's feelings matter.And this is where the hypocracy stems from. Two men, one a Brad Pitt type and one a lowly sewerworker could approach saying the indentical things. You would "feel" flattered at the Brad Pitt type, yet at the lowly sewerworkers approach you would "feel" harrassed. Thats hypocracy!!!
>@Amused…stop your silly arguements in favor of abortion. Dead is dead, so unless you can produce a living being after an abortion that person is dead.
>@SallyStrange…Yes sally, bringing a child into the world is mans way of punishing women.
>NWAsshole, what precisely is the identical phrase that Brad Pitt and you–excuse me, I mean the lowly sewerworker–are uttering in your hypothetical scenario? I think we need to know exactly what this phrase is, that is so ambiguous that it would be interpreted as harassment from you–excuse me, the sewerworker–and as a flattering come-on from Brad Pitt. Then perhaps we can pass judgment on the supposed hypocrisy of recognizing that in the end, it is a woman's perception of harassment that defines harassment. (I mean seriously, how else are we supposed to define harassment–ask the harasser? It's not harassment unless witness by at least three witnesses, kind of like rape under some versions of Islamic law? That would fit well with NWAsshole's modus operandi.) So come on, give us an example. Maybe you can think of a few.
>Yes sally, bringing a child into the world is mans way of punishing women. And you continue to insist that you don't hate women… why exactly?
>@Amused…stop your silly arguements in favor of abortion. Dead is dead, so unless you can produce a living being after an abortion that person is dead. So what? A person — granting, solely for argument's sake, that a fetus is a "person" — doesn't have the right to survive at the expense of another person's bodily autonomy, even a parent's. The "person"'s relatives cannot forcibly cannibalize another's body for the benefit of the "person". Unless you are willing to grant that people who need organ transplants have the right to force donors to part with theirs.
>And this is where the hypocracy stems from. Two men, one a Brad Pitt type and one a lowly sewerworker could approach saying the indentical things. You would "feel" flattered at the Brad Pitt type, yet at the lowly sewerworkers approach you would "feel" harrassed. Thats hypocracy!!! Really? Does your "lowly sewerworker" approach all women equally? Do you give the same attention to women who look like Angelina Jolie and obese 90-year-old grannies? Hot chicks and fat chicks without any preferences? No? Then you are a hypocrite.PS: You don't get to dictate to me how I feel. I don't care who is doing the harrassing, it's equally abhorrent to me regardless of the man's looks.