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>Non-haters gonna non-hate: NiceGuy Edition

>

From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum.
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along.  The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:

* I despise the entire female sex. Period.
* I hate only “western” women.
* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.
* I just blame feminists.
* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.
* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.

Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means. 
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate. 

Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:

  
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..
I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.

Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.

And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:

I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”

Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …

When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.


Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds.
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women: 

Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.


There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way. 
  
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong. 
 

Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents: 
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..

Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile: 

I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one


And then there is this, from strigoi:

i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.


I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.

— 
If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the “Share This” or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it. 
*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.
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NWOslave
9 years ago

>I didn't say they invited harrassment I said they dress to garnish attention. I said that if a woman rejects a sewerworker for harrassing her yet doesn't reject a Brad Pitt type man if they both approached her saying the exact same thing. This is hypocracy. I know what I said.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>You said there were no sex advice columns in men's magazines-I proved you wrong. You then state "well since I do not read it, it is irrelevant."That is acting like an asshole since you were shown to be incorrect and immediately ignored that fact.Nonasshole way of responding "okay, I was wrong about a few magazines. I do not read that tripe so I was unaware those magazines have such columns."

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Again:1. What is that "exact same thing" that Brad Pitt or the sewer guy is saying?2. Okay to murder rapists' children? (Not fetuses)3. Why is street harassment so prevalent in Egypt? Are headscarves, long sleeves, and long skirts also designed to "garnish" (that word doesn't mean what you think it means) the attention of men? If so, is there ANY mode of dressing that will not "garnish" men's attention? We need to know right away, since once you answer this question we'll be able to end street harassment and stalking forever!

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@Sally, OK#1) The mystery phrase. "WOW, you look hot."#2) If a man would rape a 10 year old girl his life is forfiet for commiting such a crime. If a woman gets pregnant from a rape that life is forfiet due to the crime of unlawful conception. Which is exactly the law of the US constitution. The law that allows todays abortion on demand is corporate law.#3) As I said I cannot answer because I honestly have no idea what the story is.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Actually I take #2 back I didn't finish reading your statement carefully. I thought it said fetus only. But as I said that is the woman choice because of the unlawful conception.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>1. Not harassment. Irrelevant to the discussion. Ergo: you are wrong, there's no hypocrisy. (Caveat: "Wow you're hot" can become harassment if the woman doesn't respond and the guy gets pissed off about it.)2. Incoherent. I don't think you understood what I was asking. What else is new? You are, after all, rather pathetically stupid. 3. "As I said"? You never said a damn thing. You posited a correlation between dressing "sexy" and harassment. Now you're backing away from it. It's kind of sad that you're so dumb. I suppose it's better that way, though–smart assholes are a REAL pain in the ass. You are an annoyance. Good night.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Even if this hypothetical woman rejected a sewer worker in favor of Brad Pitt…SO WHAT?!?Are you saying that men respond to every pass made at them, without fail, and that *this* makes them morally superior? A woman has a right to respond to passes and flirting which she finds welcome. Yes, it's all based on what she feels – because women are people with valid thoughts, opinions and desires. There's nothing wrong with her liking Brad Pitt but finding this hypothetical sewerworker unattractive. Besides, if she fucked Brad Pitt, and the sewerworker, and any man who made a pass at her, you'd probably call her a filthy, disease ridden slut. If she aborts any babies, she's a murderess, but if she keeps them, she's a welfare queen. There's no winning with misogynists, is there? And women don't automatically interpret every unwanted advance as harassment, nor are men summarily thrown in jail for such. If that were true, there'd be no straight men left outside of the prison system, since women get unwanted advances ALL THE FREAKING TIME. And it's certainly not because of how we dress. And even IF a woman is dressed sexily, that's still not an open invitation to grope her, harass her or talk to her when she doesn't care to talk to you.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Wow, you really ARE stupid! I said: Okay to murder rapists' children? (Not fetuses)You said: I thought it said fetus only. That's not fast reading, that's feeble-mindedness.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>How is my answer to #1 irrelevant?I answered #2) completely, apparently in my own now stupid asshole way.And 3 I explained clearly I do not know the story or article you are speaking of. SO you have dubbed me stupid, incoherent, asshole, dumb and annoying. After I have answered all of your questions but you have answered none of mine.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>You have a responsibility to any children that share 50% of your DNA. Unless, of course, you go through the legal process of relinquishing all rights AND responsibilities.(Sally)Is that actually Legally possible in any state or province?

NWOslave
9 years ago

>and feebleminded. I seem to be slipping ever further, a shame I wasn't aborted.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@Tit for Tat…I agree 100% Any man and woman who concieve a child both bear equal responibility.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Is that actually Legally possible in any state or province? I believe so, but I understand it's extremely complicated and am not certain that it's possible without the consent of the other parent. NWA you're a loser and yes, you have shown yourself to be stupid. Don't like it? Start being coherent. A shame you weren't aborted? That's an awful thing to say about yourself. I didn't say it though, so don't put words in my mouth.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>T4T on the other hand: not stupid. Just prone to being very coy and disingenuous.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>WIll you answer my questions Sally to enlighten me?

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>SallyIm genuine. Maybe not the way you would like. But I pretty much call it like I see it.

Eliza Doaslittleaspossible

>1. I dress the way I do because I enjoy it, not because hypothetical men might enjoy it. Contrary to what some men seem to think, women can wear nice clothes or makeup WITHOUT thinking about being attractive to the opposite sex. Geez. How clueless are people?2. If Mr. Sewer Worker or Mr. Pitt came up to me while I was going about my business at the store or on my way to class or whatever else, and said, "Wow, you're hot!" I would respond in the exact same way: Ignore. I once had a guy zip up to me on his motor scooter, get my attention, waggle his penis at me, and then drive off. If he had been hot, I would still have rolled my eyes.3. Thank god someone else mentioned Maxim and GQ. I've never read a Maxim, GQ, or even Cosmo in my life either, but *somehow* I became aware of the contents of these magazines. It's called "paying attention to the world around you." It's fun. Try it sometime. They're placed everywhere in plain view. You have to be either blind (and I mean that literally), illiterate, or just oblivious to the world around you to avoid them.Of course, the "oblivious" thing would sure explain all the, "But women like being harassed sometimes!" stuff …

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Yes Tit for Tat I called it like I saw it and for that I was shamed mightily for not following the agenda. Basically you'll be forced to aswer all question posed and when your responses are unacceptable you'll be ridiculed. And none of your questions will be answered.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>slavethats ok, I kind of like the tit for tat. You know, being that Im disingenuous.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@Eliza Doaslittleaspossible Do you dress up when your staying home alone?Are you really going to tell me if Brad Pitt came up to you and said "WOW your hot" you would ignore him?

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Well tit for tat at least your not stupid, incoherent, an asshole, dumb, annoying and feebleminded like me.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>What I mean, T4T, is that you don't seem to enjoy just coming out and saying what you think, instead you prefer posing leading questions that you already know the answer to.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>slaveNo, Im pretty much all those things too. Well, maybe not stupid.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>NWAsshole – that scenario with Brad Pitt? Never going to happen. I don't know if I'd ignore him or not–if I recognized him I'd be like "WOW, YOU'RE BRAD PITT!!" and then, "Hey… aren't you married to Angelina Jolie? She's way hotter than me… are you trying to fuck with me?"

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>I dress the way I do because I enjoy it, not because hypothetical men might enjoy it. Contrary to what some men seem to think, women can wear nice clothes or makeup WITHOUT thinking about being attractive to the opposite sex.(Eliza)My wife and I are having this discussion at the moment. Im not sure I agree with her so it looks like I might not be getting lucky tonight. 😉

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Sally…I thought maybe you could answer my questions, well really just on extended question.What is hollaback? What are it's goals? How will those goals be achieved?

NWOslave
9 years ago

>In other words sally you'd be flattered he said you were hot and he would NOT be reported for harrassment. Thank you for your honest answer.

toraism
9 years ago

>If Brad Pitt told me I'm hot I would probably not believe him; but I wouldn't really care since I'm in a happy relationship, and asexual – so I wouldn't desire sex with him!

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Also I don't know why everyone thiks angelina is like this great thing, I just don't see it. Ever see her with out being photoshopped to death? Meh.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@toraism…I don't even know what asexual is, every year some new sex pops up and I just can't keep up.

Nahida
9 years ago

>Do you dress up when your staying home alone?None of your fucking business. How women dress when they are at home or in public is completely irrelevant to your existence.Also, this Even if this hypothetical woman rejected a sewer worker in favor of Brad Pitt…SO WHAT?!?The sense of entitlement here is amazing.

Nahida
9 years ago

>WHY CAN'T I HAVE THE SAME TREATMENT AS BRAD PITT? *cries* She fucked him, therefore she should fuck me THE FILTHY WHORE!

toraism
9 years ago

>Asexual means you don't desire sex. So even if some guy complimented me, flirted with me, etc, I wouldn't want to have sex with him (even if I weren't in a relationship!). I feel like most of the reason that a person gives out compliments/flirts/harasses is for sex, so as someone for whom sex isn't anything, I see it a bit differently.

Nahida
9 years ago

>Asexuality is a sexuality, not a sex.Good God.And why would you even ask a question if you'll only believe ONE answer? Why don't you just go on your merry little way and believe whatever the fuck you want?

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@Nahida…The point is, If two men come up to you saying the exact same thing and one is some Brad Pitt Superstud and He flatters you by saying something, yet the other guy who is a lowly menial laborer will be called a street harrasser.Thats the point. It's pure hypocracy.

DarkSideCat
9 years ago

>There is a difference between rejecting someone and thinking someone is a harasser. People of all genders obviously reject proposals from others to date/fuck due to attractiveness in part. When it comes to harassment, harassment is harassment, regardless of the looks and social class of the harasser. NWO simply assumes that women are golddigging bitches and so he cannot figure out those concepts.Oh, and the jobs of the last three men I went on a date with-gas station cashier, McDonald's, and a barber. The jobs of the last three women I went on a date with- university student, waitress, cafe cashier.@Sally, you hit the nail on the head with the rape exception, it is totally inconsistent with opposition to abortion due to personhood but all about slut shaming. I had a friend in highschool who was conceived due to a rape (an incestuous rape at that). She was a wonderful person no more deserving of being killed than any other actual person.Which brings me to another point, US law is extremely clear about abortion rights belonging to the person who is pregnant, not the biological mom (ova provider). Surrogates can neither be forced to abort nor denied abortion access. So, when the man gives sperm and the woman gives the egg, the person who is pregnant, whether or not they are the one who provided the egg, is the one who has the abortion rights. Disputes over ownership of embryos outside of the uterus (embryos from IVF processes) have resulted in clear and consistent rulings that the parties have equal interest. Parties also have equal interest after birth (in general, surrogacy and maternity laws can put bio moms in surrogacy cases in weird legal limbo in certain districts). It is pretty damned clear that abortion rights are conditioned on a certain situation-that of being the person whose pregnancy is involved. It is not a legal or social inequality that results in some people having uteri and others not.@NWO, I am sexually attracted to women and I manage to walk around the street and see beautiful women wearing all sorts of different things without harassing, sexually assaulting, or raping anyone. And, you know what? So do most hetero guys. Men, in case you haven't realized, are grown ass people capable of behaving like responsible adults if they do so choose. Btw, how can you not see the inconsitency between your view that men are out of control rape machines incapable of resisting nail polish as provocation to rape and your view that rape accusations are generally not genuine and that all (or most) men aren't rapists?@brigit, I have used dental dams and condoms for oral. It is not a deal breaker and I do it whenever my partner asks, I just have a preference towards not using it. But, ew, flavored lubes often contain artificial sweeteners, which taste worse than latex. (Yes, I do have both dental dams and flavored lubes available in my house, but I just am not a huge fan).

Nahida
9 years ago

>Oh STFU. Like you wouldn't treat a conventionally attractive woman differently than one who isn't.Don't bother telling me you wouldn't–because I won't believe you. Take what you give, biatch.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>Because I want you to admit to the hypocracy.Men flat out say they are initially attracted to the most beautiful woman at first glance. We make no bones about it.But you on the other hand want to be flattered by Mr. studmuffin, yet claim harrassment by joe the plumber. You want to claim some injustice just for being approached by someone you find unattractive.So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached.

Nahida
9 years ago

>It's. Not. Hypocrisy.So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached. Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is. KTHXBIE

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>NWO, you've had numerous women here tell you your assumptions about this are wrong. If you don't want to believe them, that's your right, but at this point perhaps it would be best to move on to another topic for fuck's sake.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>@DarkSideCat…I agree with you in theory. This is the problem, if I approach a woman to talk to her, her perception of me determines wether or not I'm harrassing her. In other words, my being accused of harrassment boils down to a womans "feeling" at any particular moment in time. I could walk up to 10 women and say, "hey I really like your shoes" 9 of them might say thank you but the 10th one might say you're harrassing me, take my picture and hollaback. Correct? Which means that harrassment is exactly what any woman feels at any point in time. I find that to be a problem.

NWOslave
9 years ago

>OK dave I will, it'd be nice if my previous post was answered I'll post no more I'll just refresh and see if anyone will respond to my previous post.

Nahida
9 years ago

>Damn straight it's whatever she feels at any point in time! If she isn't smiling at you, if she is reading a book or staring out the window or listening to her iPod–DO NOT SPEAK TO HER. She is not obligated to acknowledge your presence. She is not obligated to thank you for anything. She does not exist for you to approach her with insufferable compliments.If she glares at you after you tell her she has nice shoes YOU WILL NOT PROCEED TO BOTHER HER. If you do, if you ignore her wishes to be left alone, then yes–you are harassing her.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>Are women not allowed to have feelings? Are we only allowed to have feelings that you approve of when you interrupt our day to tell us something we have no interest in being told?If Brad Pitt yelled out a moving car "You look hot!" I would look and feel puzzled. If Mike Trainor did the same thing, I would look and feel equally puzzled. Same if they came up to me in the street. But if Brad Pitt came up and said "fuck me baby," I would be offended and ignore him. Mike Trainor, on the other hand, I would be puzzled again and turn red. Is that what you are driving at? That a person I find attractive says something offensive to me I give him more of a pass because he is attractive to me?

Nahida
9 years ago

>Let me put this in a way that all MRAs can understand: in terms of cupcakes.The fact that I would eat a vanilla cupcake but not a chocolate cupcake is not hypocrisy.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>Jesus. Call me weird here, but I don't date people who yell things at me on street corners. I did give my first kiss to a random guy at a bookstore? But his big line was "hey," which I highly recommend as a non-harassing way of figuring out whether someone wants to talk to you. Also, if Brad Pitt told me to fuck him in a non-harassing way, I'd still say no. Bleh. SO unattractive.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>In short: I would rather fuck certain sewerworkers than Brad Pitt, assuming said sewerworkers otherwise fit waht I wanted in a guy.

Rachel Swirsky
9 years ago

>How does this thread have 197 comments? I swear it wasn't even here when I checked the site a few hours ago.I will probably read the comments (for lulz, of course!), but I just wanted to pitch and say, before I did, that I'm really glad to see another post. A friend of mine once referred to being at the center of a blog war as passing under the eye of Sauron.Yay manboobz!

victor
9 years ago

>"Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is."I'm don’t think that the argument is that women don't have the right to reject whomever they would like. I think that the issue comes from the fact, as you mention, that "Rejecting and approaching are not the same." Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual. Frustrating and demeaning experiences accumulate, particularly for less attractive men and those with poor social skills, who may have difficulty properly calibrating their approaches. I have never seen anyone in the MRM argue that women should be harassed along the lines of 'nice tits, bitch', rather the argument is made (if sometimes poorly worded) that approach miscalibration (say, someone with poor social skills that keeps trying for a too long) can be easily misinterpreted as harassment, sometimes resulting in extremely rude and hostile responses and accusations of harassment, at work (many people still meet their mate at work) this sort of misinterpretation can make someone lose their job, and if the hollaback guys have their way, could result in legal sanction even on the street. Both men and women can approach and reject, but only men face possible sanction, if not yet legal in all settings, then certainly social, for a poorly calibrated approach.A heterosexual man is unlikely to enjoy much of a romantic life if he never approaches. So when you say “One is not a choice, and the other is", unless a man is choosing celibacy it really isn’t. I understand it must be frustrating to have to deal with approaches from people you aren’t interested in; the situation is often very frustrating for the men doing the approaching as well, particularly for poorly socialized men who don’t understand why they are unable to make the human connection that they observe others being able to make. No one says you can’t reject someone that approaches you (though you could keep in mind when doing so that no insult is intended). The possibility of formal or legal sanction for the crime of attempting to play at the courtship ritual is what comes off as a bit much, particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.

Nahida
9 years ago

>Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual.…And that is why there is feminism.[…] particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.For the love of God. This isn't true! And if it were, IT HAPPENS TO WOMEN TOO.