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| From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. |
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along. The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:
* I despise the entire female sex. Period.* I hate only “western” women.* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.* I just blame feminists.* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.
Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means.
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate.
Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.
And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:
I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …
When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.
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| Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds. |
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women:
Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way.
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong.
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents:
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile:
I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:
i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.
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>What I learned from this:It's somewhat socially unacceptable to admit to hating women.
>What I learned from this: feminists are more devious about their misandry than MRAs are about their misogyny. Feminists very very rarely admit to hating men and yet their discourse is full of invective against men. Clever. That's why they are more dominant in our media/culture.
>"as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means."Yeah, I'm sure you have no idea whatsoever what that could possibly mean.
>"What I learned from this: feminists are more devious about their misandry than MRAs are about their misogyny."No, they're not. Feminist hatred is simply obfuscated by the media and academia."Feminists very very rarely admit to hating men"Maybe not to the "outside world". It's a given amongst themselves. Have you ever visited a feminist website? This one, for instance?"That's why they are more dominant in our media/culture."Nope. They are dominant in our culture because those in power want them to be dominant.
>Once again, the challenge stands: show us similar material coming from comparable feminist sources. Feminist discourse is full of rhetoric against men? O.K., back that up with evidence. Or are they too devious?
>Eoghan said… Beep! beep! its the thought police!I know! How dare Dave criticize people's ideas by quoting them accurately! He's devious, I tell you!
>I know! How dare Dave criticize people's ideas by quoting them accurately! He's devious, I tell you!David is censoring them by criticizing their thoughts, Captain! The First Amendment clearly states that you have a right to be free from anyone disparaging your opinions.
>Hate is a pretty powerful word. Like I tell my kids, you dont go around saying you love a whole group of people so why would use the word hate for a whole group. In our house we rarely, if ever, use it. Seeing as I love my Mom its impossible to say I hate feminists in general, afterall she is the first feminist I came to know.
>I always thought the women who take advantage of sexism are people like Sarah Palin. She complains about the way people treat her as a woman while at the same time inviting such treatment. And then complains when feminists (whom she opposes) do not defend her.
>OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ GO!So all the sex you've had with women, Zaku, has vaguely resembled fucking a moist pillow. I understand and empathize with your sadness about your sex life. However, young padawan, there are methods of solving this.–Are all of your partners virgins or in high school? Virgins and high schoolers are terrible at sex, particularly if both are inexperienced. I personally was on my third partner before I was any good in bed. FIX: Find your local cougar, slut or sexually assertive woman. –Was your partner someone with sexual hang-ups? Slut-shaming often makes women think that enthusiasm makes them "bad girls", and ideas of men-earning-sex often make women think that lying there is their contribution to sex.FIX: Have sex with feminists.–Are you simply not that good in bed? This is a common problem among inexperienced men, and can lead to women not enjoying sex because it is not that enjoyable.FIX: Learn the location of the clit (with an anatomy chart, if necessary). Listen to her instructions about sex. If she's moaning, KEEP DOING THAT. Try to give her at least one orgasm before you stick your dick in (be reasonable, if she's begging "stick it in me", go ahead, but it's a good guideline). Suck it up about the taste and learn to love eating pussy. Make sure you give her adequate foreplay (AT LEAST five minutes). Touch and kiss parts of her besides her breasts and pussy. Most of all, confidence and joy, confidence and joy. –Was your partner very, very drunk? Bad sign. Sober people participate more.FIX: If she's passed out or puking, don't fuck her.–Was your partner freezing up, softly repeating "no, no, no", or otherwise clearly not enjoying herself? Then you may have had what is technically referred to as "nonconsensual sex," or by us Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington, "rape." FIX: Seek affirmative, enthusiastic consent. This is shown by her, for example, ripping off your clothes, chanting "yes", sucking your cock without being asked, etc. If you are confused if she is consenting, feel free to ask "do you want to (have sex, make out, have me suck your tits, etc.)?" If you hear words like "no" and "stop," STOP IMMEDIATELY. OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ OVER.
>Standing ovation for Oz!!
>thank you ozymandias. You could not have explained it better.
>oh as an additive to oxy's advice about oral, use a dental dam! it solves the problem of the taste and it keeps both of you from getting STD's. Safe sex FTW!
>Once again, the challenge stands: show us similar material coming from comparable feminist sources. Feminist discourse is full of rhetoric against men? O.K., back that up with evidence. Or are they too devious?That is the very essence of feminist deviousness! Not saying anything particularly wrong! Damn those wily feminists!It's telling that less than 5% went with, "I have no animosity towards women of any group. I'm just here to learn more about MRAs." So, basically, about 5% of them are genuinely interested in men's rights, and the other 95% are there for the woman-hating. Based on my experience, those numbers sound about right. (And even a lot of the guys in the 5% are sexist "traditional values" types. They just don't actually hate women.)
>I just discovered your blog yesterday, and wow, it's completely hilarious! I'm seriously impressed with how funny your writing style is, and I love that you don't filter the comments so these people show up and say more stupid things after the fact. It's pretty fantastic 😀
>"I do not avoid women, Mandrake . . . but I do deny them my essence."
>That kitty image made me think of the old onion headline "Kitten thinks of nothing but murder all day."The people I have had sex with have primarily been American and the majority have been women, yet I have never had a sexual experience so bad as this: " is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn't join in and you can hardly tell the difference" not even as a virgin highschooler (of course, my first time was with a sexually experienced lesbian…) Also, I rather enjoy the taste of pussy. Dental dams are a bit of a downer for me. Seriously, pussy trumps latex hands down in a taste test every time. In other news, apparantly those over at nice-guy are liars as well as haters, but rather bad liars.
>Femicunt Queens of NofunningtonThat's either going to be the name of my band or the title of my first book.
>Also, allow me to add my voice to the others here and say: brava, OZ! If neither of you is enjoying it, then at least one of you is doing it wrong. Practice, practice, practice,…not to mention communication and enthusiastic consent.
>Oz, would you mind if I borrowed your tips and used them in a post, credited to you of course?
>These guys are going to be in for a big disappointment when they finally get their sexbots, and find out it's even more like humping a moist pillow.Um, so I hear.
>Thanks so much, everybody. :)That would be really awesome, David. You might want to include briget's comment about dental dams, though; I've never used them myself or met someone who used them, but more awareness of safer sex is always a good idea.
>oh as an additive to oxy's advice about oral, use a dental dam! it solves the problem of the taste and it keeps both of you from getting STD's. Safe sex FTW! But I like the taste of pussy…"I do not avoid women, Mandrake . . . but I do deny them my essence."That is my favorite movie.
>dark side cat my bf and I use condoms and dams that are non-latex and then use flavored lube on them. The polyisopropelene on it's own really has no flavor so then you can add whatever flavored lube that you like. It works well for us at least
>trip, more power to you then 🙂 I'm just providing an alternative to suck it up and deal, that's all.