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| From NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. |
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along. The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:
* I despise the entire female sex. Period.* I hate only “western” women.* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.* I just blame feminists.* I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I’m only here to learn more about MRAs.
Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that “American women suck,” I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means.
Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate.
Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.
Let’s start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
I’m not one who hates … I find that I don’t enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don’t give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn’t like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They’ve been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It’s like being around children. ..I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that’s a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.Now, I don’t mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.
And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:
I voted: “I don’t hate women; I just don’t like being around them.”Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …
When women talk they make me “ZZZ”.
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| Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds. |
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women:
Maybe it’s because I’ve only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn’t join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way.
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z— on N—G—‘sM—- F—- : You may be doing it wrong.
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents:
I don’t hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don’t care to be around them. I don’t hate sewers, either; I just don’t care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it’s 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.
Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile:
I can’t stand to be around them for too long. It’s not hatred. I just can’t stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I’m at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it’s a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:
i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don’t think I’ll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.
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>It's pretty normal to blame the parts of you that are unchangeable or that are actually not that bad or that you've come to terms with, in lieu of doing the harder work of trying to see how others perceive you.(Bee)Great point. You know what is even harder? Changing certain behaviours that once served to protect you but then became your vice.
>Avicenna, I would probably say no. I am not much for dissection of anything. Sorry.Back to being gleeful over Wisconsin.
>"…approach miscalibration (say, someone with poor social skills that keeps trying for a too long) can be easily misinterpreted as harassment, sometimes resulting in extremely rude and hostile responses and accusations of harassment, at work (many people still meet their mate at work) this sort of misinterpretation can make someone lose their job, and if the hollaback guys have their way, could result in legal sanction even on the street."You know what? I have to call bullshit on this. I grew up in a major city; in fact it remains to this day a infamous for its levels of street harassment. I’ve been walking around cities and taking public transportation since I was in the 6th grade. And I say all that to say that I am really, really familiar with nearly every type of street-level sexual harassment that there is. I’ve also been approached by many different types of men in many different types of venues. Let me tell you, the kind of sexual harassment that spurred the creation of sites like “hollaback,” in no way resembles the manner in which socially awkward men attempt to approach women.I mean, are you seriously arguing that men with poor social skills try to approach women by telling them that they have a “phat-ass,” or “dick-sucking lips,”? Are socially awkward, maybe less attractive, less charming men honestly trying to approach women by telling them –upon first meeting, no less- exactly what they’d like to do to them sexually? Really?I think you know perfectly well you’re conflating two very different issues in attempt to make NWOslave’s arguments more coherent and plausible.
>How is it that this didn't get posted yet?http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
>Tit for Tat: Great point. You know what is even harder? Changing certain behaviours that once served to protect you but then became your vice.While I don't immediately see how that relates to what I (or any of the other commenters here) said, it is true in a general sense that it's difficult to change behaviors that used to benefit you and now harm you…
>D'OH–sorry, Nahida! I swear that wasn't there before I posted.
>The cupcake thing isn't racist, but it does show poor judgment.-katz
>Kitties!(I think we should end every thread this way.)
>I meant to rebut several responses. Had long texts written (they were, of course, brilliant and would have changed all of your perspectives on gender relations). But my fucking connection at work this morning made me lose my text and prevented me from posting anything. Very frustrating. But it looks like this thread is dead so I won't try to revive it.Cats are fucking awesome.
>ok, one more comment, particularly where the new thread is so fucking boring, Hide and Seek, well done. Good comment and perspective. Where have you been during most of these conversations? I like people like you who have the ability to strip things down to blunt existential arguments. We all benefit from your perspective. Thanks.Cats are still fucking awesome.
>Come on, David. First of all, there are plenty of feminists/women who say that they don't hate men, "They just don't like being around them." Any of those comments you could ascribe to women as well. Anyway, the news media, and Obama and the government support and cover Feminists, and white knight chivalrous guys. They don't cover MRA's. MRA's don't run western governments. Feminist organizations are well-funded by the government and media. Your website and tactics are pathetic. It's like saying bad things about a few armed Palestinian rebels, while ignoring the soldiers and checkpoints of the Israeli military. The government Repubican/Democrat warmongers and Feminist groups like NOW and AAUW are Israel. We are Palestine. Get real.
>Thank you, Victor. I appreciate that. Sadly, I am pretty consistently late to the party.
>MRAs might get more (positive) coverage if they started standing up to the nutballs in their own group.
>I want to add something to the discussion about the difference between making a pass at someone and harassment. I've had guys ask me out and I gently turned them down. I would usually worry about if I had been gentle enough or hurt their feelings. That was just normal flirting and rejection. Later, after I was married, I was at a grocery store with my husband. We were in opposite ends of the soda aisle, so it looked like I was alone. Some guy came up behind me, whistled, and then squeezed my butt. I was very annoyed. My husband saw it, though, and then blew his top. My husband is a big guy and the jerk was much smaller, so he immediately apologized to my husband. My husband wanted to fight him anyway, and I intervened and convinced my husband to just go home and cool down. Sometimes men react more strongly to harassment than women. Not that it matters, but I was wearing normal jeans and a t-shirt. However, that guy was wrong even if I were wearing Daisy Duke shorts. You don't go touch people without permission.
>"In other words sally you'd be flattered he said you were hot and he would NOT be reported for harrassment."REPORTED TO WHOM? WHERE?Having sex with Angelina Jolie after she consents is something Brad Pitt can do. It's something you can't do unless you get her permission. Otherwise it's called rape. That the woman's opinion has something to do with what you're allowed to do to or with her should not be a surprising concept.SHE LET HIM DO IT. She can decide what she lets men do with or to her.Still waiting to find out why it's okay to murder a baby if its father was a rapist, BTW.
>"In other words sally you'd be flattered he said you were hot and he would NOT be reported for harrassment."REPORTED TO WHOM? WHERE?Having sex with Angelina Jolie after she consents is something Brad Pitt can do. It's something you can't do unless you get her permission. Otherwise it's called rape. That the woman's opinion has something to do with what you're allowed to do to or with her should not be a surprising concept.SHE LET HIM DO IT. She can decide what she lets men do with or to her.Still waiting to find out why it's okay to murder a baby if its father was a rapist, BTW.
>@ jupiterI guess NWOaf thinks it's illegal to tell someone "you're hot".
>It depends on when, where and in context. Like all statements. At a night club/bar/cafe? Sure! At work… less so, to a patient then quite illegal!