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Well, discussions about my second Scott Adams piece over on Feministe (which was basically identical to my post here) have now been completely derailed by a number of commenters who’ve decided I’m “ableist” because I used the word … “idiot.” That word, they have decided, is offensive to the “cognitively impaired.” If you want to wade into the mess, here’s the comment that, while polite in itself, started the long slide down this particular rabbit hole. You can see my responses in blue further down in the comments.
I consider this kind of language policing to the EXTREME! to be bad for feminism (and frankly insulting to people with disabilities), and I’m glad a number of others have stood up against it in the comments there. I don’t think that the language police are in the majority at Feministe, much less in feminism at large. But these debates are so frustrating that many feminists who disagree with the language police end up biting their tongues and/or just walking away. At some point I may post more about this fraught topic here.
In the meantime, I’m am conducting a little poll about cats. Please click the appropriate button in the graphic above. Clicking it won’t actually do anything, but I’m pretty sure what the results are going to be anyway. Go kitties!
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>Victor, please point out where in my post I said or implied that anyone deserved being treated as an irrelevant non-person. The phrase "sucks don't it" was meant to be interpreted more or less literally. As in, "Yes, we can all agree that that is an unfortunate state of affairs." Funny how Elizabeth was able to interpret that relatively straightforward comment in a manner that was entirely harmonious with how I intended it. What made you look at what I wrote differently from Elizabeth, do you think?
>There's actually a post of mine explaining my comment to Kave that's caught in the spam filter. I dunno why – it only had one link in it. And no verboten swears that I can think of.
>If it was only the words "sucks, does it not?" you would be correct Victor however there was context to go with it that shows what she meant was "this is what happened in the past with women. Since you see it sucks with this guy, you can see why it sucked for women."
>SallyYou dont even know me. You base all your judgements of me because you think my views are wrong. Of course men have just as many problems as women. They are just different. And your verbiage is nasty too. So, I wait with bated breath for your next insult.
>SallyOh by the way, Trip calls himself a feminist.
>For what it's worth, Tit for Tat, I'm basing all my judgements of you based on the exchange I had with you on a previous entry of this blog. It's certainly not particularly flattering, especially because I feel like I got taken in by a troll. And, frankly, anyone who reads that exchange and sees how you only pretended to listen would likely come to a similar conclusion.
>T4T, I judge your views by the words you express. You, on the other hand, go a step further and judge Trip on your "energy thing." Guess who's on firmer ground. And yes, I will continue to insult you as long as you continue acting like a disingenuous pot-stirrer. Don't like it? Adult up and express your opinions honestly, instead behind veiled rhetorical questions, a la Glenn Beck.
>Oh by the way, Trip calls himself a feminist. Disingenuous: adjective. Lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere. Not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness.
>SallyYep, and I dont judge you or trip based on your words,really? Energy, sense, intuition. I shouldnt use any of that. Its just woo, right? I will remember to tell that to the police officer who insisted I make sure my daughter uses it in certain situations. Keep standing on your firm ground.
>"So if you can excuse misogyny with the justification that these men are hurt and lashing out, then you have to also accept that a woman who makes a comment disparaging men may also be hurt and lashing out, and give her the same leeway you give the misogynists in the MRM. "I can do that. I'm not trying to demonize feminists and I can definitely understand that type of anger. It is a natural human response to emotional pain. Men feel it too, despite our 'privilege' and how much that may make us, in some people's worldview, deserve the pain. It can manifest in ways that are a bit ridiculous as in that discussion over at feministe, and with some of the examples that David dredges up about the MRM. In fact, I appreciate much that feminism has done, much of it has been liberating to men as well. I do observe excesses, which can happen in any movement with good intentions (prohibition for example), that have resulted in some profound injustices, particularly on issues where the court system gets involved. The issue of parental rights is very personal for me. These issues, and the men they effect are politically convenient to ignore which is why we need an MRM and why it is growing- no one else has anything but indifference at best.
>I just need to say that this blog doesn't seem to support more then two hundred posts, and I wrote a really amazing post about topics that made me look brilliant and then my internet connection went down. I'm going to have to give my provider a piece of my mind tomorrow.Also David: I have tomorrow off as well, I've decided I'm going to read some book written by Douglas Coupland but I'll need a break. Could you be a dear and write something scandalous, interesting, and or debatable again?
>This is the internet, dude. Given that all you know about me is pixels in the shape of words on a screen, I'd say you're best sticking to judging me by the words I write and nothing else. IRL I use my intuition, because that's based on facial tics, eye movement, body language, that sort of thing. I don't think there's anything energetic to it, excepting inasmuch as we are all made of energy. Long story short, you gave the impression of being a troll on the previous thread. You've done nothing to alter that impression here.
>It must have had bacon in it Kave.
>Elizabeth…..You meant Iberico ham?
>"The phrase "sucks don't it" was meant to be interpreted more or less literally. As in, "Yes, we can all agree that that is an unfortunate state of affairs."I'm sorry, really, I'm supposed to interpret 'sucks, doesn't it, but you see, men have been oppressing women for all of eternity so…..' as "we can all agree that that is an unfortunate state of affairs."? I really would like to give it to you, but it's just not credible. The implication was very clear.
>So, sorry victor. If you interpreted it that way then I'm sorry, that sucks, but the implication was not at all clear, as evidenced by the differing interpretations of it.
>"No, sorry"not "So, sorry"Typo.
>A: "I am a white wealthy man who has had problems."B: "Yes, having problems is terrible. Now imagine having those problems and being something other than a white wealthy man."That's what was meant. If I was unclear then that's on me. Since there were differing interpretations of what was meant then I will cop to being unclear. However, some people DID understand what I meant, so I wasn't THAT unclear. Now that I've clearly explained myself, victor, are you going to believe me? Are you going to continue to believe that I was INTENTIONALLY justifying hatred of wealthy white guys and stealing all their stuff? If the latter, why?
>Sally: your post about Kave is now out of the spam filter. But because it's sort of a pain in the ass to ask people to scroll up and then go to the previous page to read it, I'm pasting the whole thing in below:SallyStrange said: Jesus Christ on a Cracker, Kave, that was laughably pathetic. I just lost a lot of respect for you. To sum up: Kave says he's a wealthy white guy. victor responds: you just became an irrelevant non-person. To me, "irrelevant non-person" is a perfect encapsulation of the frustration that comes from dealing with discrimination. I feel like an irrelevant non-person whenever politicians talk about shutting down funding for contraceptive services because trying to be not-pregnant is a Bad Thing which should be separate from normal medical care for normal people (the ones who don't have to worry about being pregnant or not-pregnant). Because the most important thing about me is my fucking uterus (ooo! dirty word!). For my boyfriend, who's African American, it's dealing with co-workers who refuse to give him constructive criticism until months after the fact, because they're actually afraid of him, like he's going to curse them out and throw shit or something. What evidence do they have for him being a scary violent guy who can't take criticism? None, aside from the fact that he's black and male. My comment was intended to inspire Kave, and any other wealthy white guys out there reading, to imagine what it would be like to have his problems, which are real and important, PLUS a whole host of other problems that arise due to factors beyond his control–being born with the wrong skin color, the wrong genitalia, the wrong sexuality, etc. IOW, try a little empathy on for size. It might suit you. But instead we were treated to a paranoid rant involving the persecution of the Jews in Germany. And how my request for a little empathy was really my way of saying why it's totally justified to hate Kave and take all his stuff. And they say feminists play the victim card. And they say Black people play the victim card. Shit. We ain't got nothin' compared to wealthy white guys when it comes to playing the victim card. April 4, 2011 6:58 PM
>Mille mercis, M. Futrelle. The uterus being a dirty word thing was a reference to the FL state legislature, where Repubs recently chastised a Dem politician for using the word "uterus" in his speech, saying that it was "inappropriate" for the kiddies to hear. This, at a time when they are pushing a bill for force women to view images of their uterus before getting an abortion. The link was embedded. Misogyny in our government. And language policing run amok!
>Now Kave, stop using that wealth given quality education against us ghetto rats.
>I can't remember who said but somebody accused me of Godwinning. Yeah..no. Rich white dude whines about how haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard he has it, then compares himself to the Jews during the Holocaust? Oh, heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllll no. HELL NO. And he does nice things? Really? OMG, give him a cookie! Dude, doing nice things is not something you get rewarded as, especially as your amount of privilege rises. By God, you should do nice things and lots of them if you're lucky enough to be rich—especially these days. That's the problem with a lot of so-called allies—they want to get a cookie no matter how easy they have it, how little they do, because they know the bar for womens' rights issues is ridiculously low. So if the first time I see a guy he's simultaneously boasting about how great he is, yet how he suffers as a victimized rich white guy—-while acting like nobody else has problems—and then compares himself to the victims of the Holocaust? Yeah, no. My father's family was wiped out in the Holocaust. Great grandmother, uncles, cousins, etc., etc., etc., My father himself fought in that war, and my mother's brother was killed by the Nazis. Don't try that shit around me. Things you can compare to the Holocaust…… The Holocaust. The end.
>DavidFirst my last post was in jest, I hope you know that. (about you coming up with a witty entry for tomorrow etc)For the record. I am the most privileged person. Ever. Can you please tell me though where I ever said I was a victim? I did say everyone has bad things happen in their lives including myself. Either we have a great misunderstanding David or you just attacked my character and told me I lack empathy.
>GinmarNothing. I can't possibly respond to you. You are the same as every bat shit crazy mra who grabs onto a small statement for dear life to decide they are going to tear someone down with it.
>The most privilege person ever was George W. Bush. And we all know what happened to him.