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Well, discussions about my second Scott Adams piece over on Feministe (which was basically identical to my post here) have now been completely derailed by a number of commenters who’ve decided I’m “ableist” because I used the word … “idiot.” That word, they have decided, is offensive to the “cognitively impaired.” If you want to wade into the mess, here’s the comment that, while polite in itself, started the long slide down this particular rabbit hole. You can see my responses in blue further down in the comments.
I consider this kind of language policing to the EXTREME! to be bad for feminism (and frankly insulting to people with disabilities), and I’m glad a number of others have stood up against it in the comments there. I don’t think that the language police are in the majority at Feministe, much less in feminism at large. But these debates are so frustrating that many feminists who disagree with the language police end up biting their tongues and/or just walking away. At some point I may post more about this fraught topic here.
In the meantime, I’m am conducting a little poll about cats. Please click the appropriate button in the graphic above. Clicking it won’t actually do anything, but I’m pretty sure what the results are going to be anyway. Go kitties!
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>BACON flavored popcorn!!!YES!!!!! Wait……do they have such a thing?? If not, they SHOULD!!
>It is really expensive apparently but yes Virginia, I mean Pam they have Bacon Flavored Popcorn.
>@ Pam:They have bacon salt, so you could always salt your popcorn with that! http://www.baconsalt.com/
>I should say again that this blog has been a blessing for me. I've had ten plus years of having to read through comments that literally made me sick sometimes, sometimes I would laugh, and sometimes I just had to bite back.Finally people are laughing with me. It feels great. Please don't make this a "safe space".
>Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm….. thanx, guys, for the recommendations!! LOVE bacon!!
>Kave, I understand your broader point about victimhood but I think you're grossly oversimplfying German history here. On the "everyone can be a victim" issue, yes, oppression is a very complicated thing, and people who are privileged in some arenas are victims in other areas. And I do find pissing contests over who is the most victimized to be generally counterproductive. But I do think we can say that in rough general ways certain people ARE more victimized than others; we sort of have to make this judgement in order to understand the world. Yes, we are all human, and the death of someone close to us is going to hurt us tremendously even if we have lots of money. Yes, men have various issues they face because they are men. But women have more issues to deal with than men. The poor have more issues to deal with than the rich. So do racial minorities. That's not to say that, say, rich white men have no problems, or that they are somehow immune to problems that face all human beings (physical disabilities, mental illness, you name it). But we can't ignore the privileges that rich white men have either.
>Pam, no problem. I'm not sure what kind of place this place is, actually.LOL, I don't know either, but it's sure a fun place to be!!Please don't make this a "safe space". Oh geez, I second that motion! If Feministe is an example of a "safe space", I'd much rather be here!With bacon flavoured popcorn!!
>Jesus Christ on a Cracker, Kave, that was laughably pathetic. I just lost a lot of respect for you.To sum up:Kave says he's a wealthy white guy.victor responds: you just became an irrelevant non-person.To me, "irrelevant non-person" is a perfect encapsulation of the frustration that comes from dealing with discrimination. I feel like an irrelevant non-person whenever politicians talk about shutting down funding for contraceptive services because trying to be not-pregnant is a Bad Thing which should be separate from normal medical care for normal people (the ones who don't have to worry about being pregnant or not-pregnant). Because the most important thing about me is my fucking uterus (ooo! dirty word!). For my boyfriend, who's African American, it's dealing with co-workers who refuse to give him constructive criticism until months after the fact, because they're actually afraid of him, like he's going to curse them out and throw shit or something. What evidence do they have for him being a scary violent guy who can't take criticism? None, aside from the fact that he's black and male. My comment was intended to inspire Kave, and any other wealthy white guys out there reading, to imagine what it would be like to have his problems, which are real and important, PLUS a whole host of other problems that arise due to factors beyond his control–being born with the wrong skin color, the wrong genitalia, the wrong sexuality, etc. IOW, try a little empathy on for size. It might suit you. But instead we were treated to a paranoid rant involving the persecution of the Jews in Germany. And how my request for a little empathy was really my way of saying why it's totally justified to hate Kave and take all his stuff.And they say feminists play the victim card. And they say Black people play the victim card. Shit. We ain't got nothin' compared to wealthy white guys when it comes to playing the victim card.
>BTW, David, I like the way you run your blog. I don't think there's a need for more feminist safe spaces on the web–there are already plenty. Here, I can engage with people who are actively anti-feminist on a more or less even playing field–which would NOT be the case if I were to go comment at Spearhead, or if Nicko were to (try to) comment at Shakesville. I find it stimulating and educational, if also frustrating at times. I think you're on to something here. So keep it up!
>SallyI was just making an observation. Its an energy thing. Angry people have this sense to them. You know what I mean, dont ya? Nope, I have no fecking idea what you're talking about. You think Trip wants to use his fists, because he maligned someone's reading comprehension level? Nah. I don't see it and I don't actually believe that you think that. I think you're just trying to stir shit up. Like you did in the previous thread when we went over and over the patriarchy thing, only to finish with you asking the EXACT SAME QUESTION that began the thread in the first place, just as if you hadn't been paying attention to anything at all, except what you yourself were saying.
>Bacon popcorn, with bacon-infused bloody marys!
>With bacon flavoured popcorn!!The Power of Bacon! (Compels you!)And I like that this isn't a "safe space". Although the bacon talk is now making me hungry.
>Kave: I could say it like :"They are a cancer and we need to remove them"I would not say that to someone who is dealing with cancer. But I would say it when that person dealing with cancer isn't in the room. There is a difference between empathy and manners and having your speech being dictated by the p.c police.Please understand that I'm not at all trying to police your language, Kave, or call you out on it either. But one thing struck me as I was reading this, and I wanted to address it. Assuming, as you seem to, that referencing a cancer in front of someone who you know to have cancer might be uncomfortable for that person, I'm not sure why you say you'd be fine making the same reference when that person has left the room. Part of my understanding about people is that I don't always know what everyone's going through all the time. Even if I've known them for years. Even if I talk to them every day. They still might have secrets–a recently diagnosed cancer, a miscarriage, a rape, an institutionalized aunt, a disabled brother.Again, not trying to change the way you speak. I'm sure you've been doing it for years just fine. Just putting the idea of an expanded view of empathy and kindness out there.And yeah. I also generally like the nature of the comment section here. Obviously. I also just realized that the two options for the cat poll are OK and OK. I like cats OK.
>But women have more issues to deal with than men(David)I think this is where the problems creep in. Do they really have 'more' issues or just 'different' problems?
>And David-it is obviously a bacon flavored popcorn Monty Python repository. HUZZAH!!!
>SallyStrange said… BTW, David, I like the way you run your blog. I don't think there's a need for more feminist safe spaces on the web–there are already plenty. Here, I can engage with people who are actively anti-feminist on a more or less even playing field–which would NOT be the case if I were to go comment at Spearhead, or if Nicko were to (try to) comment at Shakesville. I find it stimulating and educational, if also frustrating at times. I think you're on to something here. So keep it up!Seconded, thirded, and fourthed.
>Kave:Yes, you're absolutely right about victimhood–everyone can cast themselves as a victim and it should never be a contest. If bad stuff has happened to you, that's bad. Period. Even if worse stuff happened to other people.But several of your comments (here and here) seem like you're just listing all the stuff you've had to deal with. And when you say that sort of thing, of course people are going to respond by pointing out other people who have had to deal with worse stuff.For instance, you're never going to garner sympathy by talking about how you had to pay estate taxes.
>SallyNope, I actually believe Trip is an angry somewhat violent individual. I just dont think he expresses it physically. Though he may if that were an option.
>I just dont think he expresses it physically. Though he may if that were an option.See, this is what I'm talking about. You contradict yourself within the space of two sentences. You're incoherent. It's unnecessarily provocative. You have zero, zip, zilch evidence, besides your woo-ish "energy thing" for thinking Trip is a violent angry person. You're just stirring the pot. It's obvious and it's stupid. Knock it off.
>SallyAm I not allowed to interpret his verbiage as aggressive and angry? If so, why am I not?
>You can interpret his "verbiage" in any way you want. How is me telling you that your interpretation has no evidence besides your stupid woo-energy thing behind it preventing you from interpreting anything? Interpret away. Just know that I think your interpretation is silly. And designed to provoke. Go ahead, show me that I'm wrong. Provide some evidence–a quote and link, for example–besides "it's an energy thing" for why you think Triplanetary is the type of person who'll lash out with his fists, "if that were an option."If I call you a disingenuous pot-stirring jackass, does that make me a violent angry person?
>Here is one of Trip's comments. I wonder if he meant me when he said 'certain men'Feminists aren't a bunch of man-haters who want to go around kicking men in the nuts. Certain men, perhaps(Trip) Violentcaused by or displaying strong or undue mental or emotional force: a violent tongue.Sally, if the shoe fits.
>Elizabeth,Thanks for the clarification. "Sally pointed out that you should think of the fact that women have had to put up with being thought of an "irrelevant nonperson" for centuries. That does not mean she supports making Kave into such a thing-it means "think about this."I think that this is a bit of a generous interpretation of her comments to me and Kave. She did not say or imply that she actively supports it, she just implied that it was deserved – at best that would be utterly inconsequential to her except that she derives some wry amusement from it. "Sucks, doesn't it?" is not quite the same as "think about this". The implication was very clear, and the earlier discussion of privilege had the same tone.And anyway, none of us know what it was like to be a woman suffering oppression 100 years ago, most or all of us have only been around in the last several decades, so, that is our experience. Systematically removing millions of men from their children’s lives won’t make any woman from 100 years ago feel any better.
>Oh wow, I feel like I've died and gone to bacon heaven!!!
>So, Triplanetary is describing feminists. Not himself. He is being facetious. He says that feminists DON'T want to kick men in the balls, by and large–and then he makes a somewhat joking exception for "certain men." He doesn't say he approves, nor does he express any desire of his own to kick any men in the balls. Based on this, you think Triplanetary is a violent angry person who would lash out with his fists if he could.Yup, you're a disingenuous pot-stirrer. Examples of disingenuousness: "WHAT could he POSSIBLY mean by 'certain men'???? *reaches for pearls and smelling salts*"Do you SUPPOSE that men have JUST AS MANY problems as women??? I mean, I don't KNOW, I'm just asking the QUESTION."You're a regular Glenn Beck.